Gospel of Thomas

[Still_Waters]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

When I think of this part I want to know where is heaven.

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.

 

So, when Jesus says this heaven will pass and the one above it will pass  he is saying one has not realized it. It is still dualistic.

 

”The dead are not alive, and the living will not die.”

 

This is very much like this verse.

 

”29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty..”

 

The spirit is eternal and for those who have realized it, will not die.

 

.

The key point, as you duly summarized in your closing statement, is indeed that "The spirit is eternal and for those who have realized it, will not die."

[Still_Waters]

Verse 77 in the Gospel of Thomas is also very thought-provoking and quite illuminating:

 

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all. From me all have come forth, and to me all has reached. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

 

[Fa Xin]

On 12/21/2018 at 1:56 AM, Still_Waters said:

Verse 77 in the Gospel of Thomas is also very thought-provoking and quite illuminating:

 

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all. From me all have come forth, and to me all has reached. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

 

Also a good one! What’s your take on it SW?

[Mark Foote]

"Jesus said:  I am the Light that is above them all, I am the All, the All came forth from Me and the All attained to Me.  Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Here is my post on the last line, from my own blog:

Miraculous power and marvelous activity:
Drawing water and chopping wood.

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah 'Abd Al Masih, pg 43 log. 77, copyright 1959 E. J. Brill)

My take on the above passages from a few years back, amended:
 

The breath in emphasizes flexion in the body, as does the action of lifting an object; the breath out emphasizes extension in the body, as does the action of wielding an axe to split a piece of wood.

The weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of inhalation, as though lifting an object; the weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of exhalation, as though cleaving a block of wood.

Much of my writing has been about laying hold of one-pointedness of mind, as a consequence of "making self-surrender the object of thought" (as Gautama phrased it). The kind of one-pointedness of mind I'm describing is the kind that koun Franz wrote about recently:
 

I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it's like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head.

(No Struggle (Zazen Yojinki, Part 6), by Koun Franz, from Koun's "Nyoho Zen" site)

How that becomes the weight of the whole body bearing at a point, I hope I have described in my "Four Points of Aikido":
 

... I realize that for me the exercise becomes in part the distinction of the direction of turn that I'm feeling at the location of awareness, and that distinction allows the appropriate counter from everything that surrounds the place of awareness.

(Zazen Notes, Four Points of Aikido, Aug. 7, 2018)

If the weight of the entire body bears at a single point in the movement of a whole inhalation, that's a miraculous power of the entire universe, as far as I'm concerned; if the weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of a whole exhalation, that's a marvelous activity.

 

Regarding the first line of 77--something like this?
 

If we are to find action on a basis other than judgement and the exercise of volition, we have to find a way to extend the mind of compassion beyond the limits of the senses, to think good thoughts toward people on the other side of the wall--then what is beyond the limits of the senses comes into play in the balance of force and counterforce at the location of awareness. Just as with the fingers on a ouija board planchette, it's important that the touch of force and counterforce at the location of awareness be light, that movement be invited, and that goodwill be extended. Then it's possible for action to take place without the exercise of volition.

There is another aspect of the action that takes place in such a manner--as I wrote to a friend last night:
 

I know for a fact that what lies beyond the boundaries of the senses can generate action in my breath and in my body, and maybe I don't know why I act but somehow the action generally turns out to be in accord with events as they unfold.

I respect that there is an ability to act blind (as it were), in accordance with what is best for all and for the future, and that compassion must be exercised in order for that ability to truly manifest.

 

(Zazen Notes, "From Letters to Friends", Nov. 17, 2018)
 

[Still_Waters]

6 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Also a good one! What’s your take on it SW?

Just as every dream-object in a dream is the consciousness of the dreamer, so is every object in the worldly appearance (wood, stone, etc.) a manifestation in the consciousness of the Source. (There is much truth in the Biblical expression that "man is made in the image of God" and the equivalent hermetic principle "As above, so below".)

 

The implication is that one must re-connect with the Source whereby all things are possible just as all things are possible when one shifts attention from the dream-object to the dreamer. It should be obvious, however, that the re-connection to the Source assumes "resurrection in God" (one of my favorite positive expressions from a Sufi Master) as opposed to the less positive expression of annihilation of the little separatist self. Both expressions nonetheless are equally applicable.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Still_Waters

[Fa Xin]

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

[Fa Xin]

I'd like to hear what people think of 105 

[Bindi]

It's gone from the OT's "Respect your father and mother"

To the NT's 'He who loves father or mother more than me cannot be my disciple"  

To the #55 gospel of Thomas's "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be a disciple of me"

And ends in the shamelessly derogatory "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."  

Gotta love the GOT 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

It's gone from the OT's "Respect your father and mother"

To the NT's 'He who loves father or mother more than me cannot be my disciple"  

To the #55 gospel of Thomas's "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be a disciple of me"

And ends in the shamelessly derogatory "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."  

Gotta love the GOT 

 

 

It does say 'will be called' and not 'will be'.  So maybe it is pointing to how the ignorant see him ??????

[Fa Xin]

I interpret this verse as Jesus speaking more about his "heavenly" father and mother... and the "whore" to mean "being with many people"... the verse seems to make more sense this way.

[Taoist Texts]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

"being with many people".

who is being with many ppl?

[rideforever]

11 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

 

In Jewish culture "child of a whore" might mean that you will be considered unclean.

And possibly that you will no longer adhere to Jewish laws and mix with many, hugging the sick and so on.

Jesus also says elsewhere that one need to love one's mother and father, meaning that being rooted in a good family connection and respecting one's parents is important for your integrity and capabilities that can be later turned to the path.

 

However I believe that Jesus like many sages struggled to comprehend this world.  Francis of Assisi did hug leppers and died from leprosy early in his life, so perhaps the Jewish laws of clenliness are important.  Likewise Jesus comes from the Mosaic society so can it be rejected ?

Like many sages he sees a future beyond all such earthly things and wishes to make a clean break, he is unable to really comprehend the relationship between the old world of men, and the world of the sage.   So he preaches a clean break.

However perhaps the tragedy is that .... there is actually a line from the old world to the new and the destruction of Mosaic society would destroy the entire project.
Perhaps Jesus arising in Mosaic society is no mistake.

 

At a certain point in your enlightenment you can convince yourself that the earth is no longer needed, but you would be in error to do so.

 

Other sages I have seen,  have also preached that humans should just wake up.   And they preach like this, and it does not work.

Such sages do not actually comprehend the mechanisms and means of the path.   

It is very difficult to become enlightened, but it is astoudingly difficult to understand how it happened if it does so.   

Most sages do not really understand what happened.   Like Buddha who sat under a tree.  

 

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by rideforever

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

who is being with many ppl?

 

The Holy Spirit, in this case. “Being with many” could also be interpreted as “being one with”. 

 

“ I am telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit. (John 3:5-6)

Edited December 26, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

It does say 'will be called' and not 'will be'.  So maybe it is pointing to how the ignorant see him ??????

 

Though 'God' was understood to have male and female characteristics in the OT, he was still firmly referred to as 'He.' People who chose to see 'God' as mother and father might well have been insulted. 

 

But did Jesus refer to 'God' as mother and father in any biblical verse? Or is this usage only to be found in gnostic literature? 

 

Is it Jesus being called child of a whore, or gnostics finding that they are called the child of a whore for their mother/father God beliefs, which would be offensive to both Jewish and early Christian sensibilities? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

The Holy Spirit, in this case. “Being with many” could also be interpreted as “being one with”. 

 

“ I am telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit. (John 3:5-6)

 

Have you successfully hated your physical parents enough to be born of the Spirit? 

[Fa Xin]

26 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Have you successfully hated your physical parents enough to be born of the Spirit? 

 

This wasn’t a requirement or side effect. I love my parents 😊

[Apech]

50 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Though 'God' was understood to have male and female characteristics in the OT, he was still firmly referred to as 'He.' People who chose to see 'God' as mother and father might well have been insulted. 

 

But did Jesus refer to 'God' as mother and father in any biblical verse? Or is this usage only to be found in gnostic literature? 

 

Is it Jesus being called child of a whore, or gnostics finding that they are called the child of a whore for their mother/father God beliefs, which would be offensive to both Jewish and early Christian sensibilities? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not certain of the meaning.

[Apech]

29 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Have you successfully hated your physical parents enough to be born of the Spirit? 

 

Where do you get hating your parents from in this?

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Where do you get hating your parents from in this?

 

I think Bindi is taking the GoT verse 55 very literally. 

[Jeff]

20 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I'd like to hear what people think of 105 

 

It is one of my favorite verses.  Incredibly deep and profound.

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

being born of water and the Spirit.

Yes, correct. In the patriarchal society a woman who gives birth to a child whose father is unknown to her tribe is considered a whore; consequently her son is a son of a whore. The Spirit is unknown to the laymen, they only know the physical mother but not the father Spirit, thus Jesus calls a newly born adept the child of a whore...metaphorically. The distant echo of which is heard in the "menstrual blood of the sordid whore" of the western alchemy.

[Fa Xin]

16 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, correct. In the patriarchal society a woman who gives birth to a child whose father is unknown to her tribe is considered a whore; consequently her son is a son of a whore. The Spirit is unknown to the laymen, they only know the physical mother but not the father Spirit, thus Jesus calls a newly born adept the child of a whore...metaphorically. The distant echo of which is heard in the "menstrual blood of the sordid whore" of the western alchemy.

Very cool. I like how the dots connect with this stuff. Seems there’s many ways it unfolds  thanks for sharing 😊

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, correct. In the patriarchal society a woman who gives birth to a child whose father is unknown to her tribe is considered a whore; consequently her son is a son of a whore. The Spirit is unknown to the laymen, they only know the physical mother but not the father Spirit, thus Jesus calls a newly born adept the child of a whore...metaphorically. The distant echo of which is heard in the "menstrual blood of the sordid whore" of the western alchemy.

 

Excellent.

[Bindi]

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, correct. In the patriarchal society a woman who gives birth to a child whose father is unknown to her tribe is considered a whore; consequently her son is a son of a whore. The Spirit is unknown to the laymen, they only know the physical mother but not the father Spirit, thus Jesus calls a newly born adept the child of a whore...metaphorically. The distant echo of which is heard in the "menstrual blood of the sordid whore" of the western alchemy.

 

Apart from word association is there any relation between child of a whore and menstrual blood of a sordid whore?

[Jeff]

On 12/25/2018 at 10:00 PM, Fa Xin said:

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

 

For me this quote has a lot of understanding regarding energy and the Holy Spirit.  Knowing is "being one with".  When one knows the mother, one knows that you are connected with everyone and everything.  You know that your mother the Holy Spirit gets around and is kind of "married to" and with everyone... Hence, as your mother... Kind of a "whore".