Gospel of Thomas

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 is there any relation between child of a whore and menstrual blood of a sordid whore?

in a sense there is. Both the gnostic whore and the alchemical antymony give birth to a sacred child (the alchemical gold in case of the latter). But the latter she is "to use an old expression, a sort of meretrix casta, a « chaste whore » available to all but owned by none. Nature continues by adding that her kingdom is « in the State of Innocency », appearances to the contrary (33)."

https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/rhs_0151-4105_1996_num_49_2_1254.pdf

[Fa Xin]

106. Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

[Bindi]

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

in a sense there is. Both the gnostic whore and the alchemical antymony give birth to a sacred child (the alchemical gold in case of the latter). But the latter she is "to use an old expression, a sort of meretrix casta, a « chaste whore » available to all but owned by none. Nature continues by adding that her kingdom is « in the State of Innocency », appearances to the contrary (33)."

https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/rhs_0151-4105_1996_num_49_2_1254.pdf

 

Could this all be under the umbrella of the devolution of 'Goddess' to whore, you mentioned patriarchy in your earlier post? 

[dawei]

On 12/26/2018 at 9:25 PM, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, correct. In the patriarchal society a woman who gives birth to a child whose father is unknown to her tribe is considered a whore; consequently her son is a son of a whore. 

 

How about in matriarchal society ?   The 'walking marriage' (走婚) seemed to not care who was your bed fellow... 

[Jeff]

On 12/28/2018 at 6:57 AM, Fa Xin said:

106. Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

 

Here is the longer version from the Tao Te Ching of making two into one. The first part is integrating the male and female (energy sides), then knowing the white (clear light), while keeping/integrating the black (emptiness of light)...

 

TWENTY-EIGHT

Know the strength of a man, But keep a woman’s care!

Be the stream of the universe!

Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more.

Know the white, But keep the black! Be an example to the world!

Being an example to the world, Ever true and unwavering, Return to the infinite.

Know honor, Yet remain humble. Be the valley of the universe!

Being the valley of the universe, Ever true and resourceful, Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful. When the wise use it, they become rulers.

Thus, “A great tailor makes few cuts.”

 

And when a ruler (immortal) tells (transmits) for a mountain to move, it will move...

[Taoist Texts]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Could this all be under the umbrella of the devolution of 'Goddess' to whore, you mentioned patriarchy in your earlier post? 

Could be, except in the christ's time there was no goddess. It is a part of the christian reversal by which the judaic norms were replaced by the opposites, like 'an eye for an eye' replaced by 'turn the other cheek'; while the goddess started as a whore  turning into the virgin mary, when the dust settled down.

[Fa Xin]

107. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine.'"

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

107. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine.'"

 

You can never go too far or be out of reach.  I also feel like we are all the “one sheep” that he loves most.  We are not separate, and no one is more loved than another. 😊

[Fa Xin]

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

 

One of my favorite verses... describes a light transmission.

[Fa Xin]

109. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either. He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

[Fa Xin]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:10 PM, Fa Xin said:

109. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either. He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

 

This concept has been on my mind lately. 

 

Someone is rich yet doesn't know it, and they live like they are poor. But once the treasure is found, it is shared with all. 

 

Anybody have any idea why it’s said the treasure is “lent at interest”? 😊

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This concept has been on my mind lately. 

 

Someone is rich yet doesn't know it, and they live like they are poor. But once the treasure is found, it is shared with all. 

 

Anybody have any idea why it’s said the treasure is “lent at interest”? 😊

 

Happy to discuss more if you are interested, but this gospel story will probably give you the answer you are looking for...

 

“For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:14-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬ 

 

True light must be grown or it dies.  

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This concept has been on my mind lately. 

 

Someone is rich yet doesn't know it, and they live like they are poor. But once the treasure is found, it is shared with all. 

 

Anybody have any idea why it’s said the treasure is “lent at interest”? 😊

 

I'm guessing that it's like the prophet not being recognized by his/her own people.  That is to say, there is a certain mastery, that enables a person to succeed at a variety of endeavors, not just in the spiritual realm.  That such mastery is innate, and the means to realize it present here and now, is largely ignored.  Even those who have some natural success may not realize the source of it, and those who inherit from their success may not realize the source of it.   But those who had to pay (in some way) to share in the natural success of others and who then discover their own mastery know the value of it, and they may expect some return in the sharing of it with others.

Something like that? 

[Fa Xin]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Happy to discuss more if you are interested, but this gospel story will probably give you the answer you are looking for...

 

“For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:14-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬ 

 

True light must be grown or it dies.  

 

Thanks Jeff. This was my view also. The more you share, the more it grows and comes back to you. 

[Fa Xin]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I'm guessing that it's like the prophet not being recognized by his/her own people.  That is to say, there is a certain mastery, that enables a person to succeed at a variety of endeavors, not just in the spiritual realm.  That such mastery is innate, and the means to realize it present here and now, is largely ignored.  Even those who have some natural success may not realize the source of it, and those who inherit from their success may not realize the source of it.   But those who had to pay (in some way) to share in the natural success of others and who then discover their own mastery know the value of it, and they may expect some return in the sharing of it with others.

Something like that? 

 

Thank you so much for sharing! Had not thought of it in that way.  So that mastery in other endeavours (mundane or external) can be traced back to spiritual achievement? Like the two are linked?

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

So that mastery in other endeavours (mundane or external) can be traced back to spiritual achievement? Like the two are linked?

 

I don't know that there is such a thing as "spiritual achievement".  As Gautama the Buddha said, "everything changes, work out your own salvation."  Is "working out (my) own salvation" a spiritual achievement, or simply the necessity of being truly alive?

 

Can we succeed materially without being truly alive to the world?  I would say no.  That's where "success" depends on the same thing. 

One of the ways to be truly alive to the world is as a teacher, teaching others how to wake up to what it means to be truly alive, yet being truly alive to the world doesn't guarantee that one can teach others.  Some would say that it's not possible to teach others at all, but only to be there as an example.   I'm not sure I believe that, in the age of science, yet I do believe that science can only provide the pieces--the pieces have to fall together of their own accord, when the time is right in someone's life.

[Fa Xin]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:10 PM, Fa Xin said:

. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

 

This also reminds me of verse 33,

 

33. Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops. After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

[Fa Xin]

110. Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

110. Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."

Thought I'd share someone else's views for a change.

 

from "The Gnostic Gospel of St. Thomas" by Tau Malachi, pg. 337 (verse 110)

 

"Renunciation of the world means very little to one who has had no success in the world and desires to escape living life on account of his or her perceived poverty, failings, and inadequacy, but renunciation on the basis of such self-consciousness and insecurity has little or no meaning and cannot lead to anything noble or good.  In fact, much of what motivates renunciation of the world could easily be called cowardice! However, the authentic spiritual aspirant seeking to become a servant of the Lord and spiritual warrior is anything but a coward. Rather, the soul that seeks the mystical path must be strong, courageous, and driven to success, whether in mundane or supramundane pursuits.

 

"I renounce the presidency of the United States of America in order to seek God for the sake of heaven!" How can I renounce what I do not have and never have had a real chance to obtain? Indeed, I can renounce nothing that I do not have in my own experience.  Just the same, I must have a life to surrender to God. It is as though the Master is saying, "Get a life so that you have something to offer up to God."

 

Let us consider more closely the meaning of renunciation.  It does not mean that we avoid, abandon, escape or deny anything.  It is not a self-denial of any sort, at least not of the kind that considers the denial of the enjoyment of life somehow more holy. No. Renunciation simply means letting go and no longer viewing things as one's own personal possessions.  It means no longer grasping at whatever is renounced as a means of feeding and sustaining egotism.  It is about renouncing the false claim of ownership over people, places and things-- and even more, renouncing ownership of subtle objects such as thoughts and feelings and so forth.  In this sense, whatever we have is to be renounced, and what must be renounced is different for each individual.  Everyone has different things in life to let go of and offer up.

 

Interesting enough, such renunciation leads to greater enjoyment of everything in one's experience of life and increased freedom to be oneself.

 

We may also speak of renunciation in terms of letting go of our limited world view, cherished beliefs, preconceptions, preconditions, and expectations, all the things that obstruct us from seeing reality or God as it is. Hence, renunciation is a term for the emptying of oneself so that one might be Spirit-filled.  These are the two ways we understand renunciation in the teachings."

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

Thought I'd share someone else's views for a change.

 

from "The Gnostic Gospel of St. Thomas" by Tau Malachi, pg. 337 (verse 110)

 

"Renunciation of the world means very little to one who has had no success in the world and desires to escape living life on account of his or her perceived poverty, failings, and inadequacy, but renunciation on the basis of such self-consciousness and insecurity has little or no meaning and cannot lead to anything noble or good.  In fact, much of what motivates renunciation of the world could easily be called cowardice! However, the authentic spiritual aspirant seeking to become a servant of the Lord and spiritual warrior is anything but a coward. Rather, the soul that seeks the mystical path must be strong, courageous, and driven to success, whether in mundane or supramundane pursuits.

 

"I renounce the presidency of the United States of America in order to seek God for the sake of heaven!" How can I renounce what I do not have and never have had a real chance to obtain? Indeed, I can renounce nothing that I do not have in my own experience.  Just the same, I must have a life to surrender to God. It is as though the Master is saying, "Get a life so that you have something to offer up to God."

 

Let us consider more closely the meaning of renunciation.  It does not mean that we avoid, abandon, escape or deny anything.  It is not a self-denial of any sort, at least not of the kind that considers the denial of the enjoyment of life somehow more holy. No. Renunciation simply means letting go and no longer viewing things as one's own personal possessions. 

 

 

Does this mean actually renouncing possessions, or keeping them and just changing how you view them? 

 

In the bible it states unequivocally that renunciation is of actual possessions, but this is of course a lot harder:  

 

“There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

 

Luke 14:33

"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

 

 

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

It means no longer grasping at whatever is renounced as a means of feeding and sustaining egotism.  It is about renouncing the false claim of ownership over people, places and things-- and even more, renouncing ownership of subtle objects such as thoughts and feelings and so forth.  In this sense, whatever we have is to be renounced, and what must be renounced is different for each individual.  Everyone has different things in life to let go of and offer up.

 

Interesting enough, such renunciation leads to greater enjoyment of everything in one's experience of life and increased freedom to be oneself.

 

We may also speak of renunciation in terms of letting go of our limited world view, cherished beliefs, preconceptions, preconditions, and expectations, all the things that obstruct us from seeing reality or God as it is. Hence, renunciation is a term for the emptying of oneself so that one might be Spirit-filled.  These are the two ways we understand renunciation in the teachings."

 

[Fa Xin]

24 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Does this mean actually renouncing possessions, or keeping them and just changing how you view them? 

 

In the bible it states unequivocally that renunciation is of actual possessions, but this is of course a lot harder:  

 

“There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

 

Luke 14:33

"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

 

 

 

 

Good question! Guess it depends if you interpret the verses more literally or symbolically. 

 

I feel like a literal interpretation is more in line with a hardline Christian view. More focused on the external stuff and not so much the inner movement of the spirit.

 

The Gnostic/Mystical interpretations usually seem more inwardly focused. More about if those possessions are attachments for you, rather than living some ascetic life. 

 

I suppose one can sell all their stuff, give the money to the poor, yet still live in spiritual bondage. 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Bindi]

On 15/01/2019 at 7:24 AM, Fa Xin said:

 

Good question! Guess it depends if you interpret the verses more literally or symbolically. 

 

I feel like a literal interpretation is more in line with a hardline Christian view. More focused on the external stuff and not so much the inner movement of the spirit.

 

This literal interpretation is not limited to biblical Christianity though, giving up possessions is also the Buddha's rule for himself and Buddhist monastics, and it is still practised by Indian Sadhus - both of these systems are highly respected and may even be considered to be the highest form of practice in their systems, above 'householders' who practise a softer version of non-attachment. 

 

On 15/01/2019 at 7:24 AM, Fa Xin said:

The Gnostic/Mystical interpretations usually seem more inwardly focused. More about if those possessions are attachments for you, rather than living some ascetic life. 

 

I suppose one can sell all their stuff, give the money to the poor, yet still live in spiritual bondage. 

 

 

 

I imagine the decision to 'sell all their stuff, and give the money to the poor' might in itself be a huge step towards non-attachment, though of course it's no guarantee of 'enlightenment.' Perhaps it just increases the likelihood of enlightenment. 

 

I think a real danger in the inwardly focused renunciation is that it is far easier to claim non-attachment to possessions than to actually do it, claiming I am unattached can be done today, but very few who claim to be unattached could actually go ahead and sell everything to give to the poor. 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I think a real danger in the inwardly focused renunciation is that it is far easier to claim non-attachment to possessions than to actually do it, claiming I am unattached can be done today, but very few who claim to be unattached could actually go ahead and sell everything to give to the poor. 

 

True. People can claim whatever they want...they would only be doing themselves a disservice. 

 

And im not knocking the ascetic life. It’s just not for me. I can only speak from my own perspective.    

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

111. Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death."

Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?