Gospel of Thomas

[Jeff]

 

Lots to think about here

What does the verse say to you?

[Brian]

What does the verse say to you?

 

To me, it says that "there is that of God in all of us" (to borrow from the Quakers) and that self-discovery is the essential first step. In the process of self-discovery, we will discover (I've become fond of the coined term "un-forget") that we are "beings of Light" (to borrow from Ya Mu) and that we are all messiahs (to borrow from Richard Bach).

 

"Heaven" is not a place but a state and we are already "there" if we just wake up (to borrow from Dorothy Gale...)

[Apech]

What does the verse say to you?

 

Never did trust those birds and fishes.

[Jeff]

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

For me, this verse is a very powerful statement to the Jewish people of the time and also the institutional Christian concepts that are often currently taught. Jesus is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is not found in some higher realm or afterlife that many believe, but instead found within yourself as Brian also said.

 

And more deeply that once you "realize" that you are a "son", you will know that the "inside" and the "outside" are the same and that is the Kingdom. That "level" of realization and understanding is where one realizes that the "inner heart" maps directly to all of "external" creation.

[Apech]

Then, what/whom do you trust?

 

If trust = trussed > ninguem.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Apech

[Apech]

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

I think this a very significant passage indeed. Jesus starts by talking about 'those who lead you' - so he is addressing teachers here - or people that other people would follow. He identifies two 'wrong' directions, the sky and the sea. This could be taken figuratively but also symbolically as referring to 'air' and 'water' or perhaps reason and emotion. Beings drawn in these directions could be birds and fishes. That is people dominated by rationality who see the Kingdom, the goal if you like, as an ideal expression and those dominated by emotion who see the goal as a swell of feelings. Jesus then is pointing to a third way. And he is saying that if you follow those other ways you can be no better than the birds and the fish in that they have distinct realms in which they are happy but are not really free - for instance cast a bird into the sea and it is unhappy (unless its a penguin I suppose).

 

Jesus says the Kingdom is inside you and outside you. Not two Kingdoms but one. So actually this is saying to me - locate the kingdom within and the world will change - or even further what we perceive as the outer world is merely a projection of the Kingdom which is actually neither inner or outer but BOTH inner and outer (because when one comes to the Kingdom inner and outer cease to be a duality).

 

If you know yourself (an echo of the Greek 'motto' of the mysteries) that is you come into the Kingdom within yourself then you will be recognised - because coming into the Kingdom is an act of self-recognition … of knowing who you truly are … and that is a son of the Living Father … in other words a self transparent entity which recognises its own identity as the source power of everything - a son of light. Otherwise you dwell in poverty … because you are that poverty … that is that lack of knowing. BUT ironically 'blessed are the poor in spirit' - so it is not a condemnation but actually an affirmation that we need to be poor and know that we are poor if we are to find the Kingdom - the path of prodigality is affirmed.

[Apech]

Bump for Jesus

[Jeff]

Move on to 4 or give a little more time?

[Apech]

Move on to 4 or give a little more time?

 

I expected more discussion - but maybe move on.

 

 

4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

 

 

 

Two together to ponder. three now - added another.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Apech

[Jeff]

Apech... Getting bored already... 3 at once...

 

 

4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

This one for me is pretty classic. A newborn child is free of mental attachments. The fact that the child is "seven days old" is to tie it deeply to the story of creation in Genesis. The seven day is the holy Sabbath (the day of repose) and focus on God. The passage finishes with reminding us that we are "one" in Christ.

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

For an understanding of this one, it is helpful to turn to the gospel of John for help...

 

John 1:9-10

 

⁹ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

In the above statement Thomas is talking about the light of the Holy Spirit that is found inside all of us. Earlier he told us to look inside ourselves and as you "look inside" it will become plain and light (or divinity) will become manifest.

[Boy]

...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Boy

[Apech]

4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

I am guessing that there is a Jewish tradition that somehow a human soul becomes established after seven days. I just looked it up and circumcision (ouch) happens on the eighth day - so I think this why seven days is mentioned. The 'place of life' is an interesting phrase. Not quite sure what this is referring to but it sounds like a reference to a centre in the body - anyone know? This passage echoes also the idea of 'alpha and omega' - the beginning and the end … and that they are one in God … that is life is a continuum and not a serial process.

 

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

I think this discussion about understanding the hidden (i.e. the mysterious source) and the manifest 'that which is in your sight' should be natural territory for Taoist students. I reminded of the famous quote by Wang Bi on the Laozi (TTC) -

"ah! It does nothing more than encourage growth at the branch tips by enhancing the roots" … this is about the non-duality of 'the real' … whatever is seen comes from the unseen root and reflects it.

 

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

I included this passage because it reflects the previous two through the 'hidden and manifest' link. Jesus is saying that it is not about outer practices or following rites and so on - it is about how you really are inside. Don't lie or do what you hate - don't be false because falsity will be exposed - most importantly self consistency is the key …

[Jeff]

 

 

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

I included this passage because it reflects the previous two through the 'hidden and manifest' link. Jesus is saying that it is not about outer practices or following rites and so on - it is about how you really are inside. Don't lie or do what you hate - don't be false because falsity will be exposed - most importantly self consistency is the key …

 

I agree that this one is pretty simple, basically saying... Practice speaking the truth and treat others like yourself (don't hate).

[Apech]

Bump for Dao Ting Thomas

 

(more discussion please)

[Jeff]

Maybe that means that is time to move on to verse 7. It will be interesting hear what people have to say about lions and men eating each other...

[Apech]

 

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

Edited September 30, 2013 by Apech

[Jetsun]

 

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

Interesting passage, perhaps it is about conquering your power and animal side. It is possible to become dominated by your animal instincts and anger and it can seem to take a life of its own and become very destructive, or it is possible to channel that energy and power towards productive aims and not allow it to control your life.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Jetsun

[Jeff]

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

As Jetsun says, this passage is comparing our "human" self with our automatic animal like response side (ego). So blessed is the animal that is consumed by (or becomes) the conscious and aware human man. Cursed is human that slips back down into the automatic ego responses.

 

There is also a deeper esoteric meaning to this passage. When a master/guru shares presence or energy with a student there is an overlap. The clarity and energy field of a master often overwhelms (or consumes) the student and can sort of temporarily raise them or help them deal with issues. Also, there is the corresponding concern that the master can also get caught up in the energy surrounding a big issue and sort of find that they get caught up in it themselves.

[Apech]

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

As Jetsun says, this passage is comparing our "human" self with our automatic animal like response side (ego). So blessed is the animal that is consumed by (or becomes) the conscious and aware human man. Cursed is human that slips back down into the automatic ego responses.

 

There is also a deeper esoteric meaning to this passage. When a master/guru shares presence or energy with a student there is an overlap. The clarity and energy field of a master often overwhelms (or consumes) the student and can sort of temporarily raise them or help them deal with issues. Also, there is the corresponding concern that the master can also get caught up in the energy surrounding a big issue and sort of find that they get caught up in it themselves.

 

Not sure that lion = ego can you elaborate on that idea?

 

I was wondering about the four beasts which include a lion and a man ... but I haven't had tome to think deeply on this one.

[Jeff]

Not sure that lion = ego can you elaborate on that idea?

 

I was wondering about the four beasts which include a lion and a man ... but I haven't had tome to think deeply on this one.

 

Here are some quotes from the bible which elaborate on the point...

 

2 Timothy 4:17 - Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

 

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

Also, I think the symbolism is also covered well here in describing the association of the lion with more "bestial" side of humans. Talking about God in the following chapter...

 

Job 4:3-11

 

 

³ Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

⁴ Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

⁵ But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

⁶ Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

⁷ Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

⁸ Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

⁹ By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

¹⁰ The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.

¹¹ The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.

[Apech]

Here are some quotes from the bible which elaborate on the point...

 

2 Timothy 4:17 - Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

 

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

Also, I think the symbolism is also covered well here in describing the association of the lion with more "bestial" side of humans. Talking about God in the following chapter...

 

Job 4:3-11

 

 

³ Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

⁴ Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

⁵ But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

⁶ Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

⁷ Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

⁸ Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

⁹ By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

¹⁰ The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.

¹¹ The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.

 

Thank you for the extensive scriptural references. I guess its a recurring Biblical theme to use lions as symbols of inimical power or activity - still don't quite get why this is 'ego' exactly but perhaps more like worldly drive or appetite. The image of the Thomas quote reminds me of the Tarot card 'Strength' - which may have a connection perhaps.

 

Tally ho! from lions back to fish ....

 

 

8) And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast

his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish.

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw

all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish

without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

[Jeff]

8) And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast

his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish.

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw

all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish

without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

 

To me, this one goes very well with the previous one as it is describing someone who has moved beyond the material (ego) phase and is becoming more fully human. The fisherman is someone who knows not to be distracted by the little things that distract in life and focuses on what is truly important. The fisherman is "wise", because he can now chose "without difficulty". The wise fisherman could also be called a "sage" and can go on to teach or be a "fisher of men".

[Apech]

8) And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast

his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish.

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw

all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish

without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

 

To me, this one goes very well with the previous one as it is describing someone who has moved beyond the material (ego) phase and is becoming more fully human. The fisherman is someone who knows not to be distracted by the little things that distract in life and focuses on what is truly important. The fisherman is "wise", because he can now chose "without difficulty". The wise fisherman could also be called a "sage" and can go on to teach or be a "fisher of men".

 

The passage suggests that we need to become 'large fish' before being accepted by the fisherman - that is some level of maturity. Small fish are thrown back into the water ... to learn more before they are ready ????

[Jeff]

 

The passage suggests that we need to become 'large fish' before being accepted by the fisherman - that is some level of maturity. Small fish are thrown back into the water ... to learn more before they are ready ????

Yes, I think that description also fits. But, we must also think of it in the context that the "kingdom" is inside you.

[Jadespear]

Dudes, There are a few points I think that historically are being overlooked here. First and foremost that Jesus was known as an Eastern mystic....he spent his 40 days and 40 nights in India supposively...and continued to travel in the East before he started his ministry in his 30's..... Perhaps this is the most peculiar part of Christianity, it has always been to me.... we hear of Jesus being born and then lots of time passes until he is a mature adult. What exactly was he doing that whole time?

 

First, the phrase "son of man" or "son of God" when observed in the time of it's use reveals a much plainer definition. People back then would say "son" in place of "servant." So Jesus was just saying he was the servant of man and God, the helper of humankind and it's creator. That makes sense.

 

Secondly, in the gospel of Thomas, Jesus also refers to the 5 trees of knowledge. I find this fascinating as the number 5 is also included in very old hindu theories of existence, meaning the 5 absolute cosmic elements of fire, water, air, earth, and the akasha. This correlation is perhaps the most significant because many hindi yogis and hindu deities have absolute power- just as Jesus displayed in the many miracles he performed. There is Hanuman, Ganesh, the man Vallalar, and many more. Even in the gospel of Thomas he mentions that "whosoever has mastered the 5 trees, will conquer the All." I think this is quite literal, the All being everything in creation, the entire universe...you, your friends, the sky, the birds, the seas. Since time immemorial people have been rumored to have superpowers...The All being the Universal Mind. The Mind of everything. Buddha has been mentioned as someone of this renkown, taoist immortals also...

 

Thirdly, in The gospel of Thomas, Jesus seems to continually use the taoist concept of yin and yang to explain things.

 

And last of all, from the taoist point of view, Jesus can be considered a transformed immortal, because he did reappear in physical form after he physically died.

 

Jesus is perhaps the most popular and common to the Western world, he said many things about life that are worthwhile to pay attention to. It's amazing to me that people can actually buy into Christianity exclusively as it is presented to them, thankfully we here can speak amongst ourselves.

 

Something else that is shared between The Holy Bible book of revelations, and the Hindu vedic prediction is that of a man returning to earth on a white horse thwarting the world of evil. I find this fascinating. Hindu's regard Lord Vishnu as the preserver of righteousness who will return as "Kilka" a man riding a white horse destroying evil and preserving our Earth. The book of revelations has the same story.... awfully strange.

 

All the powers arise out of the absolute....as the hindus say. They arise out of the God that resides within you. Is God immortal, eternal, and all powerful....? If he/she it is and there is a piece of that in you, then yes I think you would be astonished when you realize how much you can actually do.

 

But let's not forget, in the words of Lao Tse, "Occult abilities are just flowers of the Tao, and the beginning of all foolishness."