Gospel of Thomas

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

84. Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"

 

Likeness in this context is your normal ego stuff, people like to have their ego reaffirmed.  To see (and know) before your current life stuff that is more eternal and not visible/seen in the mind, you need to let go of all those issues and fears that make up what people call the ego.  Letting go of stuff is hard and very few truly bear it.

[Cueball]

On 4 June 2018 at 7:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Here's verse 80 (from the Greek) again:
 

80)  Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I wonder about the word translated as "reign" in verse 2.  

Ok, here are the two lines from the Coptic (Nag Hammadi manuscripts) instead of the Greek, using the source that Apech referred to in the very first post on this thread:

 

2)  Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

 

80)  Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

 

"Rule over the All" instead of "reign over all", is the part I'm interested in.  In particular, "the All" sheds a little light on the kind of "all" over which the reigning or ruling is to take place--"the All" is more than the material, if I'm understanding correctly, whereas "reign over all" has a more material sound. 

 

As to the body, could he just be talking about the material body, complete with phlegm and bile and excrement?  Like this:

 

29)  Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

 

Yes the 'body' in 80 refers to the material body. Translation from the Coptic: "Whoever has come to know the world has found the (dead) body. But whoever has found the (dead) body, of him the world is not worthy." It’s the same as logion 56.

The one who has discovered the world has in fact discovered death — a theme repeated throughout the scriptures (e.g. "This world is a corpse-eater" / Gospel of Philip).

Edited June 9, 2018 by Cueball

[Cueball]

On 30 May 2018 at 5:30 AM, Fa Xin said:

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."

He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"

 

 

The womb that has not conceived is the perfect power, the eternal aeon etc which precedes all but nevertheless does not give birth... "the incomprehensible Womb, the unrestrainable and immeasurable Voice..." (Trimorphic Protennoia).

 

Also: "Wisdom, who is called barren, is the mother of the angels."

 

Parallels here with the perfection of wisdom in the Prajnaparamita sutras where wisdom also is attributed to the female, but it is not conditioned phenomena, thus it doesn’t conceive or procreate in any conventional sense. And yet it is the mother of all… ‘perfect wisdom’ that “gives birthless birth to all buddhas.”

 

[Fa Xin]

85. Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

85. Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."

 

This one for me is about moving beyond the body, realizing you are a soul and part of God.  Adam seemed to forget this, and got preoccupied with his (physical) body, according to the account in Genesis.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This one for me is about moving beyond the body, realizing you are a soul and part of God.  Adam seemed to forget this, and got preoccupied with his (physical) body, according to the account in Genesis.

 

Yes, he did not realize becoming a “son of god” or as this text describes, the “life giving spirit”...

 

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lordfrom heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.

 

[Starjumper]

Good stuff in this thread!

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/9/2018 at 4:04 AM, Cueball said:

 

 

The womb that has not conceived is the perfect power, the eternal aeon etc which precedes all but nevertheless does not give birth... "the incomprehensible Womb, the unrestrainable and immeasurable Voice..." (Trimorphic Protennoia).

 

Also: "Wisdom, who is called barren, is the mother of the angels."

 

Parallels here with the perfection of wisdom in the Prajnaparamita sutras where wisdom also is attributed to the female, but it is not conditioned phenomena, thus it doesn’t conceive or procreate in any conventional sense. And yet it is the mother of all… ‘perfect wisdom’ that “gives birthless birth to all buddhas.”

 

 

Cueball, with reference to "perfect wisdom"--to me, it's just another "completed infinity", as I write here:

 

http://zenmudra.com/zazen-notes/blog_detail.php?post_id=201#post

 

Gautama's use of the phrase was grounded in the palpable (at least some of the time):

 

 

Whatever... is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies... whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body."

 

MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68.

 

 

That to me is a good example of Gautama's emphasis on cessation, on surrendering action based on intent.  This doesn't say that action ceases--as Kobun Otogawa once said, "sometimes zazen gets up and walks around."

 

Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) is precisely acting through intent, for good or for evil, and Gautama is clear that either way results in ill.  Something to think about, in a thread where we agree that the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are a rare opportunity to hear the teaching--what is our intent, when we discuss their meaning?  Are we trying to accomplish something, some perceived good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cueball]

Mark I did read your piece with interest but I’m no mathematician so sets and completed infinity went a bit over my head I’m afraid. What makes a completed infinite as opposed to, say, ’incomprehensible or immeasurable’ which may not be equitable in mathematical or logical terms?

 

My understanding of the Pali excerpt is that perfect wisdom — if it can be said to be grounded at all — is grounded in the non-phenomenal. It is knowing/seeing that is not borne of the aggregates/skandhas. So cessation is realisation of, or realisation beyond, the illusory nature of the aggregates…. thus only intent and action which appears to originate from a self (atta vs anatta) is said to cease. But I’m not a Buddhist practitioner so these are just my interpretations.

 

In terms of cosmogony (and also praxis) there’s more in common with Mahayana and Vajrayana than Theravada. Obviously in those vehicles you have both action through intent and accomplishment. E.g. generating merit and tantra / deity yoga etc form the core of various practices, and are aids to realisation. This seems to hold true for both lay practitioners enmeshed in samsara, and also enlightened beings. So I suppose some of these same conflicts must also arise when comparing the original Pali texts to the later turnings of the wheel…?

 

“Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) is precisely acting through intent, for good or for evil”… well the gnostic approach of which GThomas is a part does have a very different view on the tree of knowledge compared to the canonical version — especially with respect to realisation. And in the nitty gritty it really does become difficult to say much about who, or what, is doing the accomplishing.

[Jeff]

On 6/9/2018 at 6:04 AM, Cueball said:

 

 

The womb that has not conceived is the perfect power, the eternal aeon etc which precedes all but nevertheless does not give birth... "the incomprehensible Womb, the unrestrainable and immeasurable Voice..." (Trimorphic Protennoia).

 

Also: "Wisdom, who is called barren, is the mother of the angels."

 

Parallels here with the perfection of wisdom in the Prajnaparamita sutras where wisdom also is attributed to the female, but it is not conditioned phenomena, thus it doesn’t conceive or procreate in any conventional sense. And yet it is the mother of all… ‘perfect wisdom’ that “gives birthless birth to all buddhas.”

 

 

I think you raise a very interesting point here. In taoism, this would also be called the "valley of the universe" found in chapter 28 of the Tao Te Ching.  It is sort of like perfect/ultimate reception and clarity.  The clear "womb" that gives rise to all energy and birth to intent.  Such creates ultimate reception gives birth to buddhas/immortals and is the mother of angels as they are manifest intent energy.

[Fa Xin]

86. Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

86. Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."

 

(86) Jesus said:  [The foxes] [have] the[ir holes] and the birds have [their] nest, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head and to rest.

 

The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 47, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

As "to lay his head and to rest", I find a resonance with the instruction from the Diamond Sutra that the woodcutter Huineng heard, that resulted in his awakening (and later becoming the 6th patriarch in the lineage of Zen in China):

 

"Let the mind be present without an abode."

(Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from "The Rabbit's Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra", Buddha's Light Publishing pg 60)

 

As though to say, the Son of Man is tasked with letting the mind be present without an abode, unike the birds and beasts for whom such presence is a given.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

Nice interpretation. 

 

Like the birds and the beasts just “are”, yet humans get caught and trapped in our egos. 😊

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Nice interpretation. 

 

Like the birds and the beasts just “are”, yet humans get caught and trapped in our egos. 😊

 

I see it a little differently. More saying birds and beasts “are” themselves (simply beings), while we are not the body (or contained within it). Like Mark said, no “need” for such an abode. 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I see it a little differently. More saying birds and beasts “are” themselves (simply beings), while we are not the body (or contained within it). Like Mark said, no “need” for such an abode. 

 

“It were better… if the untaught manyfolk approached this body, child of the four great elements, as the self rather than the mind. Why so? Seen is it… how this body, child of the four great elements, persists for a year, persists for two years, persists for three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, persists for forty, for fifty years, persists for a hundred years and even longer. But this… that we call thought, that we call mind, that we call consciousness, that arises as one thing, ceases as another, whether by night or by day.”

(SN II 93-94, Pali Text Society II pg 66)

 

Gautama the Shakyan, there, with another perspective, but hey--we're all "the untaught manyfolk".

Edited July 23, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

This leads nicely into the next verse:

 

87. Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."

[Fa Xin]

On 7/23/2018 at 4:03 PM, Fa Xin said:

This leads nicely into the next verse:

 

87. Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."

 

This verse has me a little confused...

 

"depends on these two" - two bodies? 

[SirYuri]

29 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This verse has me a little confused...

 

"depends on these two" - two bodies? 

 

 

This Just means that you must not think that you are the Body but you are a soul and as a soul you must realize or have a knowing that yes, you are a soul and not a Body.

 

Because the Body is but a thought projection created by the soul to Express itself in the Physical world.

 

And these means as a soul you are pure consciousness and the person who realizes this will never experience death since only the physical body dies but never the soul.

 

And as souls you are immortal.

Edited July 28, 2018 by SirYuri

[Mark Foote]

"Wretched is the body which depends upon a body, and wretched is the soul which depends upon these two."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 47)

 

 

"The body which depends upon a body", confusing to refer to this as "these two", but I can kind of see "the body" as one and that body which "the body" depends upon as a second.

 

Apparently the point is that the soul need not depend on the body which depends on a body.  

 

Here's one I like, from "The Gospels of Mary" by Marvin Meyer (© 2004, pg 20):

 

"I said to him, 'Master, how does a person see a vision, with the soul or with the spirit?' The saviour answered and said, 'A person sees neither with the soul nor with the spirit. The mind, which is between the two, sees the vision...'"

 

But I digress (if you'd like more digression, try The Gospel of Mary and the Mesoamerican Sacrum Bone).

 

[Jeff]

On 7/23/2018 at 3:03 PM, Fa Xin said:

This leads nicely into the next verse:

 

87. Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."

 

There is the physical body and and also the energy body. In some traditions, one would call this the male and female sides of the energy. If a body has not integrated with it’s energy body side, then there are local mind issues and fears/suffering (and hence miserable). Similarly, to realize the soul in mystical Christianity, one must fully integrate the two to realize the bridal chamber (and become one with God), hence the soul is “miserable” because it is not yet one with God.

 

Here is a little more on the point from another verse...

 

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

[Fa Xin]

Thanks everyone for your responses.  It's nice to see such quality interpretations on these verses.

[Fa Xin]

88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"

[Fa Xin]

4 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"

 

To me, this verse is very interesting.

 

It seems to be about placing False hopes in Men ... waiting for spiritual salvation from others.  The prophets show us the kingdom of God is within, yet we - being fallible - reject this notion and "wait for the day".

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

To me, this verse is very interesting.

 

It seems to be about placing False hopes in Men ... waiting for spiritual salvation from others.  The prophets show us the kingdom of God is within, yet we - being fallible - reject this notion and "wait for the day".

 

Yes, the messengers and prophets give you the information you need, but people just play with it in there mind (give them what they have).

[Fa Xin]

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"