Gospel of Thomas

[Fa Xin]

On 1/15/2019 at 8:55 PM, Fa Xin said:

111. Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death."

Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?

 

The last 2 lines in this verse is stuff we’ve covered in other verses, such as Verse 1.

 

What interests me is the “heavens and earth will roll up in your presence” line. 

 

Anyone have any interpretations or ideas?

 

It makes me think of the illusory nature of the world.  Or from verse 2 “they will marvel, and will reign over all”

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

The last 2 lines in this verse is stuff we’ve covered in other verses, such as Verse 1.

 

What interests me is the “heavens and earth will roll up in your presence” line. 

 

Anyone have any interpretations or ideas?

 

It makes me think of the illusory nature of the world.  Or from verse 2 “they will marvel, and will reign over all”

 

In the teachings of Jesus, where do you get the concept of “illusory nature of the world”? 

 

On your quote specifically, I see it as meaning that heaven and earth are integrated (roll up together) in your presence. Like saying they overlap with in the presence of such a son of God.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

In the teachings of Jesus, where do you get the concept of “illusory nature of the world”? .

 

Very good question. None that I can think of. Maybe I put my own spin on that one. 😊

[Fa Xin]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

On your quote specifically, I see it as meaning that heaven and earth are integrated (roll up together) in your presence. Like saying they overlap with in the presence of such a son of God.

 

 

 

This reminds me of verse 22, GOT...  “when you make the inner like the outer, and the outer like the inner”

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

Anyone have any interpretations or ideas?

 

 

Here's a bit from Yuanwu, 12th century Zen teacher and author of "The Blue Cliff Record":

 

(The great Zen masters) penetrated directly through and made themselves completely unobstructed twenty-four hours a day, with their realization pervading everything in all directions, rolling up and rolling out, capturing and releasing."

("Zen Letters, Teachings of Yuanwu", trans. Cleary & Cleary, pg 19)

 

And again:

 

In the past there were many examples of enlightened lay people who combined worldly achievement with profound mystic realization.  ... When interacting with people, they focused the eye of enlightenment and set in motion their quick potential and sharp wisdom to turn all the myriad forms of being around, back into their grasp.  They rolled out and they rolled up, they released and they captured.  Thus they were no different from all the people of great attainment down through the ages whose practice was pure and ripe and who held within them the virtues and power of the Tao."

 

(Ibid, pg 91-92)

 

The phrase "roll up" is similar, I'm thinking. 

The translation of GOT that I like has 111 this way:

Jesus said:  The heavens will be rolled up and the earth in your presence, and he who lives on the Living (One) shall see neither death nor <fear> because Jesus says:  Whoever finds himself, of him the world is not worthy.

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This reminds me of verse 22, GOT...  “when you make the inner like the outer, and the outer like the inner”

 

I think Luke describes it pretty well...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

For a son of God, heaven is within (or a natural part of) you...  

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

I think Luke describes it pretty well...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

For a son of God, heaven is within (or a natural part of) you...  

 

Good one. It also made me think of this

 

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Good one. It also made me think of this

 

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

 

To me, this one is more about outward projections to others.  About clarity of mind, and not acting nice while thinking bad thoughts about others inside.

[Fa Xin]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

To me, this one is more about outward projections to others.  About clarity of mind, and not acting nice while thinking bad thoughts about others inside.

I like that view. 

 

I was thinking more “the one who made the inside also made the outside” to mean how heaven and earth roll up together. Like they aren’t as separate as we think. 

[s1va]

 

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

In the teachings of Jesus, where do you get the concept of “illusory nature of the world”? .

 

Very good question. None that I can think of. Maybe I put my own spin on that one. 😊

 

I am glad this came up in the discussion.  I have also made such mistakes at times in the past interpreting some teachings of Jesus to imply the illusionary nature of the world, or Advaita oneness etc.  I guess it is bound to happen when we mix concepts between different traditions or view one from the lens of other.

 

Also, I have read some interpretations of selected verses from the teachings of Jesus by some masters of Vedanta or Buddhism to imply this notion of similarities to the of illusory nature of the world and the concept of oneness, etc.  It's good to know Jesus did not hold the similar illusory view of the world.

 

Even this illusory concept as explained in Buddhism vs. various Hindu traditions are so different when examined closely.  Due to the popularity of Advaita in the recent times, many Neo-advaita and modern spiritualists are painting all traditions and teachings to have essentially the same core concepts.  This one point about the illusory nature shows the potential to misunderstand the teachings or lose the core context or the direction of the teaching.  Reminds me of the pitfalls in trying to generalize everything as the same.

 

It helps immensely to know that in the views and teachings of Jesus, the world is not entirely illusionary.  It helps to understand the beauty and the uniqueness of his teachings in the right context.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

 

I am glad this came up in the discussion.  I have also made such mistakes at times in the past interpreting some teachings of Jesus to imply the illusionary nature of the world, or Advaita oneness etc.  I guess it is bound to happen when we mix concepts between different traditions or view one from the lens of other.

 

Also, I have read some interpretations of selected verses from the teachings of Jesus by some masters of Vedanta or Buddhism to imply this notion of similarities to the of illusory nature of the world and the concept of oneness, etc.  It's good to know Jesus did not hold the similar illusory view of the world.

 

Even this illusory concept as explained in Buddhism vs. various Hindu traditions are so different when examined closely.  Due to the popularity of Advaita in the recent times, many Neo-advaita and modern spiritualists are painting all traditions and teachings to have essentially the same core concepts.  This one point about the illusory nature shows the potential to misunderstand the teachings or lose the core context or the direction of the teaching.  Reminds me of the pitfalls in trying to generalize everything as the same.

 

It helps immensely to know that in the views and teachings of Jesus, the world is not entirely illusionary.  It helps to understand the beauty and the uniqueness of his teachings in the right context.

 

Yes, I would agree that such attempted mapping of concepts are common. But, I know of no such teaching from Jesus that states or implies illusory nature of the world.  If anything, I would say that it is much closer to a more Taoist view.  Where earthly life leads to death, but there is the potential to realize the underlying heavenly body (similar to immortal).

[Fa Xin]

 

112.  Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Mark Foote]

8 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

112. Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

 

112.  Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 55, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Language that's a little less loaded, IMHO.

[Fa Xin]

14 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

112.  Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 55, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Language that's a little less loaded, IMHO.

 

Thanks. I will use yours for this one. 

[Fa Xin]

22 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

112.  Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

So Jesus talks a lot about being focused on worldly stuff (flesh) as being death, but being focused in spirit is life. 

 

Here he seems to be saying that, while this is true, it’s also true that you cannot choose life without the possibility of death. 

[Jonesboy]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

So Jesus talks a lot about being focused on worldly stuff (flesh) as being death, but being focused in spirit is life. 

 

Here he seems to be saying that, while this is true, it’s also true that you cannot choose life without the possibility of death. 

 

Are the soul and the flesh separate from each other?

[Fa Xin]

44 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Are the soul and the flesh separate from each other?

 

Nope 😊 The kingdom of God is within and without...

[Jeff]

On 1/24/2019 at 11:23 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

112.  Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

Some more from the gospels on the same topic...

 

Romans 8:6-17
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

[Mark Foote]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:01 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Are the soul and the flesh separate from each other?

 

That seems to me to be the point of the loggia, that the flesh and the soul are in some sense independent of one another, and for it to be otherwise is woe. 

It's possible to experience the activity of the body as part of the autonomic function of breath, but only when the location of awareness is responsive to all the senses, and to what lies beyond the range of the senses.  At such a time, ease apart from equanimity has ceased, and happiness apart from equanimity has ceased, and there are no "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body", as Gautama put it (MN III 18-19 Pali Text Society III pg 68).  With no such latent conceits, "the soul and the flesh" are separate, to use the language of logia 112, although of course Gautama does not cross the line to create a completed infinity of "the soul" (see my About Completed Infinity).

More on the experience of activity of the body as part of the autonomic function of breath:  Action That Arises in the Breath.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

On 1/26/2019 at 3:51 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

That seems to me to be the point of the loggia, that the flesh and the soul are in some sense independent of one another, and for it to be otherwise is woe. 

 

I've always thought they are the same, as it is "woe" that they try to exist independently...  I've also thought that is part of Jesus' deeper mystery, like the last verse about the inner and the outer being the same.  

 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

Edited January 28, 2019 by Fa Xin
darker green

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

 

Funny, I just read this line yesterday - but it was in Luke 17:20

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Funny, I just read this line yesterday - but it was in Luke 17:20

 

There is a huge cross over with the traditional gospels.  My theory was that it was not included in the Bible because it does not support the supremacy of Peter (and hence Rome) as the council was overseen by the Roman emperor at the time.

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

I've always thought they are the same, as it is "woe" that they try to exist independently...  I've also thought that is part of Jesus' deeper mystery, like the last verse about the inner and the outer being the same.  

 

Sorry - Not sure what a loggia is though ?

 

 

Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

The logia (sorry, my mistake on the spelling, previously) says that it's woe if they depend on each other.  Not sure where you're getting "'woe' that they try to exist independently"?

[Fa Xin]

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Jesus said:  Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.

 

The logia (sorry, my mistake on the spelling, previously) says that it's woe if they depend on each other.  Not sure where you're getting "'woe' that they try to exist independently"?

 

Thanks, I didn’t know what the word logia meant, but I see it’s greek for verse.

 

As for the independent and separateness, I’m going to revert back to my original interpretation of focusing in the spirit versus the flesh. It seems I am confusing myself trying to justify the sameness - at least being expressed in this verse. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Fa Xin