How not knowing ones path could be a much greater form of wisdom and power

[skydog]

In awareness of spontaneous movements, intuitive movements, rupan, shaking medicine etc.

 

One follows the energy and moves with the rythm of the energy, their intuition and goes with the flow.

 

One will find that spontaneous movement practice could be many many times more powerful than other types of practice, because their body knows the way to heal, their body and nature has great knowledge of healing.

 

This includes shaking/ecstatic dance practices

 

After a while ones hands may start to move to sick parts of their body, then other peoples.

 

And this may even sound really "esoteric" or crazy to some, but I assure you its a very normal part of Qigong. Ive been doing it for nearly 2 years.

 

So in these movements one doesnt know the exact neext position the energy tells them to take, but they end up taking the wisest most powerful stance.

 

This could be compared to life, where situations and challenges will give you the wisdom and experience to change ones energy, and the energy of the environment, working in a clever harmony. If one plans every step of the way, then they may be blocking the intelligence of the natural flow of energy which is often much more wise and powerful, similar to spontaneous movements.

 

Not to discredit plans, but not knowing can often be a form of intelligent.

 

As can being very comfortable being very yin, or useless (not that those two mean the same thing).

Edited September 23, 2013 by skydog

[silent thunder]

My practice of wuji happens spontaneously and frequently begins in response to music.

 

Presence in the moment seems different when a natural movement slides unhindered into the next without some knowledge of what move should/must come next and this yields clarity in my case. Clarity and dynamic relaxation pair well.

 

Empty mind, big soft heart.

[Thunder_Gooch]

As far as spontaneous movement is concerned not knowing what path you are on might work just fine.

 

For virtually any other endeavor in life (real spirituality included) this is not the case.

Edited September 24, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[thelerner]

Yet for life itself, living life, finding adventure, you have to let go. Try new things, literally get lost and let the universe show you what it will. Yin stuff.

 

Maybe you need both. Discipline, learning and practice to go deep and learn mastery, but also surrender, dance and freedom to gain true artistry. Yin/Yang Complete Human being.

[C T]

there are times when we have to admit there are things happening to the body that we have absolutely no control over. For example, i cannot control how much oil the skin around my nose secretes. i could fight it (and i do cos it can be so darn annoying when my glasses keeps sliding) in which case other stuff will also start secreting from other parts, and shrink me faster in lieu, or i could let it be at the point of becoming aware, in which wonderful instantaneous moment, expansiveness blooms! happy out.

[zanshin]

Lilies of the field and all that. I think living in the present can be it's own sort of spirituality. Goals get boring and frustrating for me then sometimes I end up doing it by epiphany once I give up anyway.

 

Went hiking with kids and dogs couple weeks ago. I sat on a rock near where the path crossed a stream while they went way upstream and explored, blissing out and becoming one with nature. Really not that peaceful since kids and dogs are way noisy. Voices had gotten pretty far away so went to bring them back to the path. So, as I go am wondering where did the path start again, what if we get lost, eww sure is muddy, eek poison ivy! They found an awesome little sandstone cave way upsteam on a hillside. Hope I can remember the way to get there.

[Jetsun]

People generally want to know the path and want to have it mapped out in step by step linear way out of fear of the unknown and unpredictability, so it is the ego wanting the vastness of life to fit in to its own narrow confines so it can remain in control, yet that isn't the way it works in my experience which appears to be a curse but ultimately long term I suspect its a blessing. It would be incredibly boring to know exactly what is around the corner and to be totally in control, a story is never as good if you know what is over the next page.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I concede that men of genius like Einstein, Tesla, Maxwell, etc. All had the ability to visualize to a near superhuman degree and dream up the correct answers and solutions to their problems, but always these ideas were firmly tested in reality.

 

Logical, rational, scientific, well mapped out systems, are truly the only ones that have ever led us anywhere.

 

For instance we wouldn't have the space program, nuclear technology, computer technology, etc had great minds not worked, studied, researched and applied the scientific method to help us discover and understand the principals which make those technologies possible.

 

Real spiritual systems that actually do something, took thousands of people trying different things and most of them dying as a result of the experimentation to discover what worked and what did not.

 

The only counter argument I can see that might be valid is that you may argue that spiritual systems may exist for entertainment purposes, or artistic/decorative purposes, without serving any practical function. Indeed for most spiritual seekers this seems to be the case, a game of roleplaying where the goal is to roleplay you are not roleplaying.

 

Real spiritual systems that get real results are mapped out in a clearly defined and linear way, that makes sense.

 

It's called science.

 

People generally want to know the path and want to have it mapped out in step by step linear way out of fear of the unknown and unpredictability, so it is the ego wanting the vastness of life to fit in to its own narrow confines so it can remain in control, yet that isn't the way it works in my experience which appears to be a curse but ultimately long term I suspect its a blessing. It would be incredibly boring to know exactly what is around the corner and to be totally in control, a story is never as good if you know what is over the next page.

Edited September 24, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[skydog]

Spontaneous movements are widely considered High level Qigong by many teachers. I have reported your post regarding "real spiritual systems" please troll another thread.

[thelerner]

That is the only way it has ever worked.

Spirituality is no different. Real spiritual systems that get real results are mapped out in a clearly defined and linear way, that makes sense.

 

It's called science.

 

 

A good way, but not the only way. Some people, some masters, short circuit this.

Observation -> Instinctive Doing. No middle man, hypothesis or conjecture.

 

Maybe a level of mastery or damn good intuition is needed to get to this point, but its real and its there.

I'd add it doesn't leave much of a trail for those who'd follow, but it is the path of mysticism.

Edited September 24, 2013 by thelerner

[Thunder_Gooch]

Spontaneous movements are widely considered High level Qigong by many teachers.

 

I would have to disagree. There are 10 "high level masters" alive, I doubt any of them utilize spontaneous movements.

 

 

I have reported your post regarding "real spiritual systems"

 

 

 

Please see:

 

 

 

 

Basically No personal attacks.

It is totally fine to vocally disagree with a person's opinion, technique, politics, approach, lifestyle choice, etc.

Edited September 24, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

I concede that men of genius like Einstein, Tesla, Maxwell, etc. All had the ability to visualize to a near superhuman degree and dream up the correct answers and solutions to their problems, but always these ideas were firmly tested in reality.

 

Logical, rational, scientific, well mapped out systems, are truly the only ones that have ever led us anywhere.

 

For instance we wouldn't have the space program, nuclear technology, computer technology, etc had great minds not worked, studied, researched and applied the scientific method to help us discover and understand the principals which make those technologies possible.

 

Real spiritual systems that actually do something, took thousands of people trying different things and most of them dying as a result of the experimentation to discover what worked and what did not.

 

The only counter argument I can see that might be valid is that you may argue that spiritual systems may exist for entertainment purposes, or artistic/decorative purposes, without a real goal to fill. Indeed for most spiritual seekers this seems to be the case, a game of roleplaying where the goal is to roleplay you are not roleplaying.

 

Real spiritual systems that get real results are mapped out in a clearly defined and linear way, that makes sense.

 

It's called science.

 

 

 

I agree that is the way the world generally works and if you want to achieve things in the world you should apply this thinking , but it is an assumption that spiritually things work this way too. One of the main reasons Zen masters have taught Zazen or just sitting for thousands of years is to provide an antidote to this exact sort of thinking and mentality. The counter argument is that spiritually things go beyond the regular mind and beyond the thoughts altogether so it is an assumption that the regular thought based paradigm which you apply to most things applies to this area.

[Thunder_Gooch]

A good way, but not the only way. Some people, some masters, short circuit this.

Observation -> Instinctive Doing. No middle man, hypothesis or conjecture.

 

Maybe a level of mastery or damn good intuition is needed to get to this point, but its real and its there.

I'd add it doesn't leave much of a trail for those who'd follow, but it is the path of mysticism.

 

Geniuses like Einstein, Tesla, Maxwell created synthetic realities inside their own minds and gained near superhuman insight as a result. I am sure some spiritual adepts are able to do the same, and perhaps with enough minds working together to test and research such ideas it could lead to new systems more powerful and functional than the ancient lineages.

 

However men like Einstein are as rare to science as they are to spirituality.

 

Speaking in tongues, and shaking like you are having seizures or spontaneous movements isn't likely to convey any benefit to you as a spiritual seeker though other than the roleplaying and entertainment factor, that is what I am getting at.

Edited September 24, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[silent thunder]

Science is one spoke on the wheel.

Qigong is another. Religious thinking another...

All spokes meet at the emptiness in the center.

 

Emptiness trumps all.

Don't be afraid to settle enough to let the waters of the mind clear.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

I agree that is the way the world generally works and if you want to achieve things in the world you should apply this thinking , but it is an assumption that spiritually things work this way too. One of the main reasons Zen masters have taught Zazen or just sitting for thousands of years is to provide an antidote to this exact sort of thinking and mentality. The counter argument is that spiritually things go beyond the regular mind and beyond the thoughts altogether so it is an assumption that the regular thought based paradigm which you apply to most things applies to this area.

 

I think you make my point for me in this statement. I have never heard of one Zen master who has achieved anything I consider notable. The same goes for "masters" of virtually every other spiritual method and practice on the market.

 

To me it's all just garbage that wouldn't even be useful if recycled as toilet paper.

 

Learning new philosophies and ways of looking at the world is fun, but the fun is just entertainment value, a distraction. If the knowledge you gain doesn't help you stop the cycle of rebirth, it's worthless in my opinion. That is where this is all ultimately headed, you will die, and anything that doesn't prevent the cycle from restarting is merely a distraction.

 

Very few spiritual practices lead anywhere, and or do anything other than make your wallet lighter. In the very best case scenario it keeps the practitioner entertained, a distraction to pass the time before their death, or serves some artistic function where it decorates their life like some sort of feng shui, or spiritual fashion.

Edited September 24, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Brian]

 

<snip>

 

There are 10 such high level masters alive

 

<snip>

 

 

I'd be curious as to who those 10 are.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Science is one spoke on the wheel.

Qigong is another. Religious thinking another...

All spokes meet at the emptiness in the center.

 

Emptiness trumps all.

Don't be afraid to settle enough to let the waters of the mind clear.

I don't see it as such, science has been the only way we have ever cut through delusion to arrive at more accurate and functional paradigms. Real spiritual practices that have lead to real results utilized scientific method and had thousands of researchers working on the problem, just like any other scientific endeavor. Indeed I wouldn't even call real spiritual systems spiritual at all but instead I would call them science and technology.

 

Everything else serves only artistic and entertainment purposes as a distraction from death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd be curious as to who those 10 are.

 

 

So would I.

 

“Can you imagine,”

 

I asked him,

 

“what it would be like if four or five people like yourself could get together and work in harmony, something like a Western university or a research center,* rather than fighting each other? Can you imagine sharing notes and experiences with a man like yourself?”

 

“I have wanted to do so; you are preaching to the choir, Kosta,”

 

he said softly.

 

“I have gone to China twice looking for people like myself, hoping to find a brother. I was unsuccessful both times.”

 

“But you know of their existence now?”

 

I asked.

 

“Yes,”

 

he said.

 

“I know that there are for sure two and I can sense eight more. I think that there are at least ten.”

 

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus Of Java p93

 

Edited September 26, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

I think you make my point for me in this statement. I have never heard of one Zen master who has achieved anything I consider notable. The same goes for "masters" of virtually every other spiritual method and practice on the market.

 

To me it's all just garbage that wouldn't even be useful if recycled as toilet paper.

 

It doesn't lead anywhere, and it doesn't do anything but make your wallet lighter. In the very best case scenario it keeps the practitioner entertained, a distraction to pass the time before their death, or serves some artistic function where it decorates their life like some sort of spiritual fashion.

 

Its largely just an investigation into what is really true.

 

For example say it was true twenty years ago that there were only 10 high level masters in the world, if you really honestly question this thought then you don't know for sure that now that is true, there could be hundreds of thousands for all you know, no matter what you say you honestly don't know. Examine all your thoughts and beliefs in this way and you find it is hard to say that any of them are really true

 

Then Zen takes this investigation further, what it is that these thoughts arises in, where do they come from where do they go? is what they arise in any less you than the content of your thoughts? so it takes the investigation beyond the regular thinking mind altogether.

 

If you don't think the enquiry into what is really true is important then it is up to you, it is the regular mentality to try to get life to fit into your existing beliefs rather than adjust your beliefs to what is really going on in life. But you are right about one thing, it may not go anywhere or achieve anything, because those notions come from the regular thinking mind.

[Brian]

<snip>

 

So would I.

 

Thanks for the context, MPG. That helped.

[mjjbecker]

 

I would have to disagree. There are 10 "high level masters" alive, I doubt any of them utilize spontaneous movements.

 

 

Your opinion is based on what scientific basis? Something you read in a book supposedly said by someone who you've never met?

 

Given also that even if these 10 "high level masters" do exist, you have no idea what their method of practice is, what you believe or not is based entirely on speculation.

 

I have never heard of one Zen master who has achieved anything I consider notable. The same goes for "masters" of virtually every other spiritual method and practice on the market.

 

Any you've encountered how many in person? Spent how much time in Japan, China, or any other country notable for spiritual adepts?

 

Or are all of your assumptions based on what you've read and seen on the internet and in books?

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Its largely just an investigation into what is really true.

 

For example say it was true twenty years ago that there were only 10 high level masters in the world, if you really honestly question this thought then you don't know for sure that now that is true, there could be hundreds of thousands for all you know, no matter what you say you honestly don't know. Examine all your thoughts and beliefs in this way and you find it is hard to say that any of them are really true

 

Then Zen takes this investigation further, what it is that these thoughts arises in, where do they come from where do they go? is what they arise in any less you than the content of your thoughts? so it takes the investigation beyond the regular thinking mind altogether.

 

If you don't think the enquiry into what is really true is important then it is up to you, it is the regular mentality to try to get life to fit into your existing beliefs rather than adjust your beliefs to what is really going on in life. But you are right about one thing, it may not go anywhere or achieve anything, because those notions come from the regular thinking mind.

 

 

If anything I think the number of high level masters is dwindling. Finding serious students who can feed themselves and dedicate the time to practice is next to impossible, and no institutions exist to help further their development while they train.

 

 

I think stopping the cycle of rebirth is the only thing worth doing, as every realization or unrealization you might have will be rendered null and void by the black hole that is death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your opinion is based on what scientific basis? Something you read in a book supposedly said by someone who you've never met?

 

Given also that even if these 10 "high level masters" do exist, you have no idea what their method of practice is, what you believe or not is based entirely on speculation.

 

 

 

Any you've encountered how many in person? Spent how much time in Japan, China, or any other country notable for spiritual adepts?

 

Or are all of your assumptions based on what you've read and seen on the internet and in books?

 

 

 

 

 

I know that Wang Liping of Longmen Pai is rumored to be at a high level of development and that the introductory training given for his school is very similar in many respects to mo pai level 1-2a, in addition to many other methods.

 

 

 

Assuming they do exist you are correct, I do not know their method of practice.

 

 

They very well might roll around on the floor randomly flopping around and speaking in tongues and this might lead to greater levels of achievement than is possible with mo pai. That may be possible but seems highly improbable. That's just my personal opinion with nothing else to back it up at all.

 

I've encountered one in person rumored to be at a high level of development, but I am not at the level to accurately gauge his level of development.

Edited September 26, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[skydog]

Spontaneous movement is not really flopping around on the floor.

Edited September 24, 2013 by skydog

[silent thunder]

I don't see it as such, science has been the only way we have ever cut through delusion to arrive at more accurate and functional paradigms. Real spiritual practices that have lead to real results utilized scientific method and had thousands of researchers working on the problem, just like any other scientific endeavor. Indeed I wouldn't even call real spiritual systems spiritual at all but instead I would call them science and technology.

 

Everything else serves only artistic and entertainment purposes as a distraction from death

 

 

Science is amazing and it's helped us out incredibly, but it does not provide a full model or complete understanding.

Science has not purged hunger, disease, death, murder, rape, suicide, emotional abuse from our experience.

It's definitely allowed us to perform some of the processes on that list faster... but science is not our savior.

Science answers some questions and raises many more and I love it. But it is one facet of my experience.

 

My point here is not to fill your cup too full. Living in the answer is to miss the bliss of the question.

Life is larger than science and kung fu and qigong and real spirituality and fake spirituality (whatever that might be) and etc.

 

Let's look at Mo Pai. I'd never heard of it before arriving here. I find it very interesting and so have read many of the threads on it and my take is that it is a very deep and intense system comprised of 73 levels, (level 2 being split into a/b ).

 

It seems from the descriptions I've encountered here; like a highly secretive, closed system, with a reputation of being extremely exclusionary and somewhat xenophobic to outsiders.

 

Even if the exclusionary and xenophobic traits are overblown and false in the descriptions on this board and it is wide open, this simple fact hangs in my craw when you attack spontaneous movement as useless entertainment; and that is this: No one aside from the two reported masters who have achieved the 73rd level know what the entire system comprises, so...

 

Can you with any certainty state that between your current level of understanding of Mo Pai and it's highest level there does not exist any spontaneous movement or wuji aspects?

 

I was exposed to wuji and shaking by a qigong master with decades of experience.

 

Living in the answer is a defensive posture and closes me up to life.

Living the question refines and tunes me in to the present moment.

 

Assumption is a harsh mistress.

Edited September 24, 2013 by silent thunder

[JohnC]

If anything I think the number of high level masters is dwindling. Finding serious students who can feed themselves and dedicate the time to practice is next to impossible, and no institutions exist to help further their development while they train.

 

 

I actually think people and in general the vibration of things is increasing. The more I look around the more I see people becoming more conscious and with more choice.

 

Even that there are thousands and thousands of people that have heard about practices that before you would be lucky to have been born near or in the same culture to discover. It's now available on the internet through information transfer.

 

And I think the old ways are changing. Household practitioners, that need very distilled and efficient practices, but are still interested in having a life.

 

Which coincides with info I've heard from masters like Micheal Lomax. That what used to take much more effort to reach a certain level takes less now.

 

And even innovation of practices. Yes the old practices are a solid pathway... and once you are following and reach a certain point people can innovate, and develop now practices that are more effective or efficient. That certain point though is the same kind of point of say... a masters or phd student. Thousands of hours of practice and the like, with direct experiential understanding of energy and it's movement.

 

I was reading about this from Wang li ping, and at the time blew my mind.

 

John

[skydog]

Its funny that Bushmen Shamans often refer to Westerners as "the line people" because of their strict adherence to logic, they call themselves people of the circle.

 

Not that I condone such separation, but its a stark contrast to a lot of people who say you must know what you are doing at all times, and act "logically". They actually make fun of people who behave like this.