How not knowing ones path could be a much greater form of wisdom and power

[zerostao]

skydog,

you kinda look more like a sky tiger today , but never-the-less

"Not to discredit plans, but not knowing can often be a form of intelligent."

the ancients have been very consistent in trying to convey this message to us, havnt they?

adam and eve eating from the tree of knowledge and hence taking a huge fall,

also the ancient greek >> euripedes, in The Bacchae, demonstrates how spontaneous nature totally crushed

the rationale thought/plan of pentheus.

Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu advise us to step away from knowledge/knowing(thinking we are knowing becoz we sure the heck aint)

the Ancients understood this fallacy of humanity thinking that we are knowing and our reason is superior to spontaneous nature.

it was true in the ancient world and it is still true today. look at the numerous perils we have placed ourselves in by using our knowledge

[skydog]

I agree with your post Zerostao and..

 

 

"skydog,

you kinda look more like a sky tiger today , but never-the-less"

 

Yeh decide to work with animal symbolism/totems/spirits intuitively, the tiger is showing up quite strongly right now- showed up about this time last year too http://www.spiritanimal.info/tiger-spirit-animal/

 

 

Peace (oh wait should I mention this in front of line people) lol

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Science is amazing............but it does not provide a full model or complete understanding.

 

The most common misconception is that science is a conclusion or set of conclusions.

 

It is not.

 

What science is is a process by which we build ever more accurate paradigms based on information available to us.

 

Some "spiritual" systems are very much a science yet they have gone in a different direction from western science and technology, but they are a science none the less.

 

The results they get are obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Science has not purged hunger, disease, death, murder, rape, suicide, emotional abuse from our experience.

 

That is the job of ethics, philosophy, morality, etc. Science is a tool and process by which we build more accurate paradigms. Science has made great inroads to helping us cure many diseases that were not curable 100 years ago, but only because that is how we've chosen to apply science to research methods to cure disease, it's also made great advances in allowing us to feed more people, there are nearly 7 billion people on this earth and it's amazing we can feed as many as we do. It would not be possible for this many humans to be alive and fed without science and technology.

 

Science also has made us exponentially better at murdering people in the name of warfare.

 

It's good at finding solutions for whatever problems we focus on, if that is killing someone or feeding someone it isn't a fault of science itself, but of the culture wielding it as a tool.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but science is not our savior.

You can bet your happy *** that indeed it is our savior. It is the only way we have ever built more accurate paradigms.

 

There isn't some spiritual world over there, and some scientific world over here.

 

There is just one world and we really don't understand it all too well.

 

Science be it a spiritual science like some lineages, or western science is the best process we have by which we can make our paradigms of reality more accurate.

 

It is still science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Living in the answer is to miss the bliss of the question.

I can never forget even for an instant that every cell of my body will become food for worms and bacteria, my very brain itself will be devoured. My consciousness will become that of an unconscious coma patient with basic memory only, and await erasure, and rebirth into another ****hole like this one, ad infinitum. That's where I am at. That is going to happen, and there is no sugar coating it, or watching day time television to make it go away. Every moment I am alive is to realize where this is all headed.

 

Congrats to you if you find some coping mechanism to make yourself ok with this process, rather than try to actually do something about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you with any certainty state that between your current level of understanding of Mo Pai and it's highest level there does not exist any spontaneous movement

 

 

I feel confident no level utilizes spontaneous movement or methods which are not rigid and clearly defined. That's just a hunch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually think people and in general the vibration of things is increasing. The more I look around the more I see people becoming more conscious and with more choice.

 

I don't see that at all. I see a lot more people becoming delusional peaced out silly hippies. I see the average IQ of humanity being dumbed down into oblivion, and tyrannical governments coming to power in every country with the populations too ignorant to see what's going on. I see an ocean of ignorant sheep, and an increase of silly hippies. That's all. No real serious students or seekers, just a bunch of ADHD ***hats that can't pull themselves away from the television long enough to investigate something real or meaningful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even that there are thousands and thousands of people that have heard about practices that before you would be lucky to have been born near or in the same culture to discover. It's now available on the internet through information transfer.

 

What you don't seem to realize is the rise of disinformation. Each year since 1994 more and more bull**** has been clogging up the internet. The vast majority of people on the internet in the early 90's were intelligent adults, now it's a cesspool of 4chan trolls, this forum is no different.

 

Cacophony I believe is an accurate word to describe this. A sea of a billion screaming voices 999 million of which have no clue about what they are talking about.

 

Disinformation, there is more information available than ever before, however it's mostly garbage.

 

Everyone and their brother has written some newage book on some nonsense topic that doesn't actually mean anything or teach you how to actually do anything. How to get rich guides by dip****s that still live in their parents basement.

 

 

To quote the Dalai Lama:

 

We build more computers

to hold more information,

to produce more copies than ever,

but we have less communication.

We have become long on quantity

but short on quality.

 

-Dalai Lama

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And even innovation of practices. Yes the old practices are a solid pathway... and once you are following and reach a certain point people can innovate, and develop now practices that are more effective or efficient.

 

More effective at doing what exactly? I haven't seen any of these modern masters surpass any of the masters of the old lineages, nor have I even heard of such nonsense.

 

Sure if we understood exactly what yin and yang chi really were there is no doubt in my mind we could build machines to extract and fuse them together to speed the process of cultivation up many billion fold, but we don't.

Edited September 26, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[joeblast]

MPG, you seem to have made your point a couple times over. How long are you going to keep pushing it, when you know it is pulling away from where the OP was going? You dont seem to have much of a grasp on what "spontaneous" means if your mental image of it is nothing but flopping around on the floor speaking in tongues. I understand that "greater form of wisdom and power" is some contentious verbiage, juxtaposed with some more....ah, 'linear' lineages who we've seen some demonstrable power from...but I've seen and experienced demonstrable power from both sides of that aisle, though I have no basis to determine "immortality." I dont think its quite as cut and dry as you seem to be asserting.

Edited September 25, 2013 by joeblast
just jb's opinion

[Protector]

And these gigantic chunks of space are annoying

[mjjbecker]

I dont think its quite as cut and dry as you seem to be asserting.

 

Exactly. And it is no good going on about the scientific method if one doesn't follow it. That means, in this instance, of actually going out and seeing and experiencing these things directly.

 

Let me tell you something. There is nothing spontaneous about highly developed lineage methods if you are suggesting they are just random fits and babbling. Let me put it in a manner that you might understand.

 

Consider the human body to be a computer and the lineage transmission to be software. Instead of having to manually press switches and pull levers, you have a system and programming that allows the computer to execute the most applicable and appropriate command and a particular given time.

 

Whilst doing Stillness Movement I have personally experienced myself 'doing' numerous qigong and neigong exercises. Some of these exercises I have done by conscious effort in the past from other systems. Some I have seen in books and other media. Given that I can recognise these particular exercises, and given that I can feel the effects of them (rather than just 'striking a pose' in a 'hit and hope' attempt to get an effect), I can say, following a scientific approach, that something real is going on, and given my experience and previous understanding, this something is significant and effective. What's more, instead of being attached to one particular exercise and hammering away at it ad nauseum, (with the potential for harm and injury this can cause), the body is now programmed to move onto the next appropriate exercise.

 

It might be worth considering that masters that had the ability to create such a method of learning might have created something that deserves a little more consideration and respect. Personally I have no end of respect for methods that have been powerful enough to allow past masters to communicate with current living practitioners (and current living practitioners to connect with 'deceased' masters from their own and other lineages). The Mo Pai isn't the only school that has this.

[zerostao]

And these gigantic chunks of space are annoying

they must be some form of postmodern art expression and would probably look fantastic over @ MoMA, where they would have the space to showcase these fascinating solid blue lines surrounded by white space. kinda genius really,

but a few of us are thinking on a thread here on ttb may not the propper venue for these.

[Brian]

I largely agree with you, MPG, about the value and contribution of the scientific method, and about the increasing superficiality of the species (on average, that is, but I think with an increasing number of exceptions) but I do not agree with what appears to be an assertion that "science=mopai=science and everything else is shit." This is not only unscientific and illogical, it is also contrary to personal experience and observation (which is the cornerstone of the scientific method).

[Thunder_Gooch]

I do not agree with what appears to be an assertion that "science=mopai=science and everything else is shit."

 

I think there are at most 10 other non-BS schools available. I also believe if we had millions of serious seekers, and devoted people we could recreate or surpass the knowledge contained by those lineages. The problem is we don't. Modern life doesn't allow for it, two days a week is the most anyone is going to be able to devote to practice.

 

 

The spiritual marketplace offers for the most part entertainment, feng shui for your life, spiritual fashion to be worn, it's decorative and entertaining but not much else. Some systems may provide inner peace but really it's just a form of psychological/emotional anesthetic, and it does nothing to change the situation you are in, only making you ok with it.

Edited September 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[joeblast]

 

 

They are necessary as I can't reply separately to each comment any more.

 

I notice that most people here have really bad ADHD and skim everything, so replying to many people in one post is going to be overlooked if it isn't spaced out. The horizontal lines are there to denote that it's a separate conversation.

 

So long as we are stuck with the "all your replies get mushed together" function, I'll have to use it or something like it to help break my posts apart so they are legible for the ADHDers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If you can think of a way this can be better accomplished though I'll be happy to listen.

I think there are at most 10 other non-BS schools available. I also believe if we had millions of serious seekers, and devoted people we could recreate or surpass the knowledge contained by those lineages. The problem is we don't. Modern life doesn't allow for it, two days a week is the most anyone is going to be able to devote to practice.

 

 

The spiritual marketplace offers for the most part entertainment, feng shui for your life, spiritual fashion to be worn, it's decorative and entertaining but not much else. Some systems may provide inner peace but really it's just a form of psychological/emotional anesthetic, and it does nothing to change the situation you are in, only making you ok with it.

how's about this, a single red line, not taking up 4 entire line returns, and not accompanied by an additional 15 enter buttons that do nothing but make people scroll 4 times what they otherwise would.

 

do you understand how you have ostensibly overtaken and usurped this entire thread with your point of view yet?

[Thunder_Gooch]

How long are you going to keep pushing it, when you know it is pulling away from where the OP was going?

 

I said pretty much everything I wanted to here:

 

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31819-how-not-knowing-ones-path-could-be-a-much-greater-form-of-wisdom-and-power/#entry480538

 

 

The rest is just in defense of that. I don't think anyone is entitled to their opinion, only what they can defend. If you can't defend your opinion you don't have one.

 

The topic is not knowing your path can lead you to wisdom and power, and I disagree with that as I've seen no evidence of that ever occurring.

 

It takes huge groups of dedicated serious people to carve out paths through the mountains of ignorance.

 

I have absolutely no issue with a thread split if the OP wants one. I wasn't trying to derail his thread, only that I disagree with the threads premise.

[Protector]

If you can think of a way this can be better accomplished though I'll be happy to listen.

 

Do what I do in my journal, press Enter, twice

 

 

If someone doesn't read what you write then it's their loss

[skydog]

I wonder if you know what Intuition is More Pie Guy.

 

Seeming as you think you have the authority to attack other people in this forum as "new age drivel"

 

Based on your standards of evaluating people (powers) etc, a lot of people in this thread alone, could be YOUR teacher. Let alone running some nonsense about John Chang.

 

If you dont understand what Intuition is, what spontaneous movements are or how much logic can be a hindrance to success, you HAVE NO AUTHORITY OR PLACE to insult others in this thread who imo have a much greater level of energetic cultivation.

 

Everything is not science.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Everything is not science.

 

Only the things that really matter.

 

 

imo have a much greater level of energetic cultivation.

 

In your opinion.

Edited September 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[skydog]

 

Only the things that really matter.

 

 

 

In your opinion.

 

Actually I can read energy, I can tell you about things that your overly scientific rational mind would need 10,00 experiments and a john chang signature before you accept, I can also read energy of others in this thread.

 

Not being able to read energy, or even understand spontaneous movements or feel energy as well as your constant negativity is proof alone of your cultivation level.

 

I have a teacher, a secretive teacher, who is "high level" and his main practice he reccomends is spontaneous movements. I do not need to discuss things with people like you, who do not believe anything anyways.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Actually I can read energy, I can tell you about things that your overly scientific rational mind would need 10,00 experiments and a john chang signature before you accept, I can also read energy of others in this thread.

 

Not being able to read energy, or even understand spontaneous movements or feel energy as well as your constant negativity is proof alone of your cultivation level.

 

I have a teacher, a secretive teacher, who is "high level" and his main practice he reccomends is spontaneous movements. I do not need to discuss things with people like you, who do not believe anything anyways.

 

k

Edited September 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[silent thunder]

 

In awareness of spontaneous movements, intuitive movements, rupan, shaking medicine etc.

 

One follows the energy and moves with the rythm of the energy, their intuition and goes with the flow.

 

One will find that spontaneous movement practice could be many many times more powerful than other types of practice, because their body knows the way to heal, their body and nature has great knowledge of healing.

 

This includes shaking/ecstatic dance practices

 

After a while ones hands may start to move to sick parts of their body, then other peoples.

 

And this may even sound really "esoteric" or crazy to some, but I assure you its a very normal part of Qigong. Ive been doing it for nearly 2 years.

 

So in these movements one doesnt know the exact neext position the energy tells them to take, but they end up taking the wisest most powerful stance.

 

<snip>

I like what you allude to with the innate wisdom of the body to heal itself and when open to move instinctively in the most regenerative manner.

 

At various times in my form practice, I experience an inner 'ping', or a flinch, which would send a cascade of energy through the body usually from the middle dan tien, outward.

 

This ping, while a very strong sensation, had no muscular movement associated with it. I neither fostered nor neglected it, it's just another sensation in the process. Let things flow.

 

Recently, in the last year or so, while in form practice, I've noticed a spontaneous muscular 'shudder'. This shuddering effect has the affect of twisting my body slightly, or twitching of the limbs, fingers, or head. These motions are still quite small but as they've surfaced I was reminded of description of spontaneous movements by Damo Mitchell in his recent book: Daoist Nei Gong: Singing Dragon Publisher.

 

 

Quote: Damo Mitchell: Daoist Nei Gong (excerpts pgs 163-164)

 

Induced Qi Flow and Spontaneous Movement.

 

When we rotate the lower Dan Tien it drives information throughout the body which begins to adjust the direction of vibration along the meridians. This increases the efficiency by which they transfer Qi through the body. This is known as an 'induced Qi flow'. This has several effects as the energy body and physical body begin to coordinate with each other. The nervous system is affected for a short period of time and we often get a natural phenomenon known as 'spontaneous energetic movement'. This is where the practitioner's body begins to move in strange and uncontrollable ways which can be very amusing both to experience and to watch.

 

....

 

These movements are a sign that the physical and energetic bodies are coming together and that the efficiency of the meridian system is improving. Blockages are being removed from the body by the movements and the health and vitality of the practitioner improves dramatically over a short period of time.

 

.....

 

It is important to remember during the practice of spontaneous energetic movement that it is not a desired result in itself. It is simply a part of the process which should be moved through in due course.

 

 

It seems a very natural process that coincides and aids in the removal of blockages and reinforces what you were saying Skydog about the innate wisdom of spontaneous movements in moving specifically with increased efficiency to aid in healing.

[Starjumper]

In awareness of spontaneous movements, intuitive movements, rupan, shaking medicine etc.

 

One follows the energy and moves with the rythm of the energy, their intuition and goes with the flow.

 

One will find that spontaneous movement practice could be many many times more powerful than other types of practice, because their body knows the way to heal, their body and nature has great knowledge of healing.

 

This includes shaking/ecstatic dance practices

 

After a while ones hands may start to move to sick parts of their body, then other peoples.

 

And this may even sound really "esoteric" or crazy to some, but I assure you its a very normal part of Qigong. Ive been doing it for nearly 2 years.

 

So in these movements one doesnt know the exact neext position the energy tells them to take, but they end up taking the wisest most powerful stance.

 

This could be compared to life, where situations and challenges will give you the wisdom and experience to change ones energy, and the energy of the environment, working in a clever harmony. If one plans every step of the way, then they may be blocking the intelligence of the natural flow of energy which is often much more wise and powerful, similar to spontaneous movements.

 

Not to discredit plans, but not knowing can often be a form of intelligent.

 

As can being very comfortable being very yin, or useless (not that those two mean the same thing).

 

I had no idea where my path was leading, and that was a very good thing because being told this in some cases creates high hopes, which will be dashed; and tunnel vision, which limits your learning. However, that does NOT mean making it up yourself, it means you learn from the most advanced teacher you can find and he doesn't tell you the long range goals.

 

As far as spontaneous movement is concerned not knowing what path you are on might work just fine.

 

For virtually any other endeavor in life (real spirituality included) this is not the case.

 

It seems hat some here have been mislead into thinking that spontaneous chi kung means spastic flopping around. In fact spontaneous chi kung comes as a result of learning thousands of ways to move (which is usually smooth, flowing, and slow) and THEN letting them arise naturally. Flopping around is no path and leads nowhere special, and so no need to be told about goals.

 

The other way (real spontaneous chi kung) can be accomplished well if one has a general short term goal for that particular practice time. Still I feel it is best to not be told about specific long range goals, goals meaning what to expect or what to see or look for, as the best teachers only tell you where to look and not what to see.

[silent thunder]

I had no idea where my path was leading, and that was a very good thing because being told this in some cases creates high hopes, which will be dashed; and tunnel vision, which limits your learning. However, that does NOT mean making it up yourself, it means you learn from the most advanced teacher you can find and he doesn't tell you the long range goals.

 

 

It seems hat some here have been mislead into thinking that spontaneous chi kung means spastic flopping around. In fact spontaneous chi kung comes as a result of learning thousands of ways to move (which is usually smooth, flowing, and slow) and THEN letting them arise naturally. Flopping around is no path and leads nowhere special, and so no need to be told about goals.

 

The other way (real spontaneous chi kung) can be accomplished well if one has a general short term goal for that particular practice time. Still I feel it is best to not be told about specific long range goals, goals meaning what to expect or what to see or look for, as the best teachers only tell you where to look and not what to see.

 

Love this.

 

Don't look at the finger.

Don't mis-take the forest for the trees.

 

I used to pester my teacher for tales of the fruit of my pursuit, while unknowingly standing in the midst of a pile of them at my feet.

[Thunder_Gooch]

It seems hat some here have been mislead into thinking that spontaneous chi kung means spastic flopping around. In fact spontaneous chi kung comes as a result of learning thousands of ways to move (which is usually smooth, flowing, and slow) and THEN letting them arise naturally. Flopping around is no path and leads nowhere special, and so no need to be told about goals.

 

The other way (real spontaneous chi kung) can be accomplished well if one has a general short term goal for that particular practice time. Still I feel it is best to not be told about specific long range goals, goals meaning what to expect or what to see or look for, as the best teachers only tell you where to look and not what to see.

 

Automatic moving in tai chi style movements isn't going make you a hsien, if you think it conveys some other benefit then awesome. For me it might as well be rolling around and flopping randomly. Just more pretty dancing.

Edited September 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Starjumper]

Automatic moving in tai chi style movements isn't going make you a hsien, if you think it conveys some other benefit then awesome. For me it might as well be rolling around and flopping randomly. Just more pretty dancing.

 

I was referring to chi kung and not tai chi, but I feel that if you have had years of training in tai chi, meaning you instinctively move correctly according the the RULES then you can sometimes take an exploratory approach to tai chi moving. Tai chi is not the forms, it is a way of moving with power which the forms teach you. So, in this regard, I suspect i disagree with you.

 

Keep this in mind, one of the top goals in Taoism is arriving at the formless, and this applies 100% to tai chi as well.

 

"One must first study the forms in order to eventually arrive at the formless." and you can quote me on that!

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

I was referring to chi kung and not tai chi, but I feel that if you have had years of training in tai chi, meaning you instinctively move correctly according the the RULES then you can sometimes take an exploratory approach to tai chi moving. Tai chi is not the forms, it is a way of moving with power which the forms teach you. So, in this regard, I suspect i disagree with you.

 

Keep this in mind, one of the top goals in Taoism is arriving at the formless, and this applies 100% to tai chi as well.

 

"One must first study the forms in order to eventually arrive at the formless." and you can quote me on that!

To what end? What does such mastery lead to?

 

Why does it matter?

[Wells]

I notice that most people here have really bad ADHD and skim everything, so replying to many people in one post is going to be overlooked if it isn't spaced out. The horizontal lines are there to denote that it's a separate conversation.

 

LOOOL!! When I saw these lines in your posts for the first time, I thought immediately: "How nice, little breaks for the ADHD guys!"

 

BTW, I think green, blue or purple lines are a better choice to serve your intention than the recent red lines. Those might in fact be counterproductive...

http://library.thinkquest.org/27066/psychology/nlcolorpsych.html

 

 

Your opinion is based on what scientific basis? Something you read in a book supposedly said by someone who you've never met?

 

Any you've encountered how many in person? Spent how much time in Japan, China, or any other country notable for spiritual adepts?

 

Or are all of your assumptions based on what you've read and seen on the internet and in books?

Yeah, yeah! We all know that you met John Chang in person and that you use every possible opportunity to hint to that!

 

But after your trollish post (see below) in which you adressed me as "idiot" in my new thread, I somehow doubt however that he planted the seed of wisdom in your tantien when he checked it or that you gained any spiritual "benefit" at all from that experience...besides the obvious illusion of superiority!

I vote a squad of ninja be sent around to wipe out the next idiot to mention the Mo Pai...

 

Never has so much been said by so many that knew f**k all about what they were talking about.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Dorian Black

[skydog]

LOOOL!! When I saw these lines in your posts for the first time, I thought immediately: "How nice, little breaks for the ADHD guys!"

 

BTW, I think green, blue or purple lines are a better choice to serve your intention than the recent red lines. Those might in fact be counterproductive...

http://library.thinkquest.org/27066/psychology/nlcolorpsych.html

 

 

Yeah, yeah! We all know that you met John Chang in person and that you use every possible opportunity to hint to that!

 

But after your trollish post (see below) in which you adressed me as "idiot" in my new thread, I somehow doubt however that he planted the seed of wisdom in your tantien when he checked it or that you gained any spiritual "benefit" at all from that experience...besides the obvious illusion of superiority!

 

Sorry you are justifying things and rationalising them in your own mind to avoid seeing things clearly, members who have no experience with the Mopai, travelled to other countries with many masters or met many teachers who have developed a certain level, seem to think they know everything about everything. Mjjbecker is completely valid in what he said. Perhaps the word idiot was strong, but somewhat neccessary to those who blabber about things they have zero knowledge about and insult everyone on this forum constantly.

Edited September 26, 2013 by skydog

[skydog]

" I don't think anyone is entitled to their opinion, only what they can defend. If you can't defend your opinion you don't have one."

 

I would like to remind you that this is a discussion forum, and I don't have to defend anything from attack. This is not the boxing ring.