Why end rebirth?

[SriChi]

Hiya bums,

 

I admit I'm not a Taoist or a Buddhist. Far from it. My spiritual path is simply Unconditional Love.

 

Reading many threads here, I keep stumbling across this goal of ending rebirth which is a very common goal from all the religions I've had knowledge of.

 

My question is Why?

 

In many of the spiritual circles I hang out with, there is this constant struggle to "ascend", "escape samsara" etc.

 

Personally, I love being human and experiencing life. In fact experience is the whole point, all the varying kinds. It leads me deeper and deeper into myself.

 

Knowing myself more and thus understanding reality at a deeper level is what my spiritual practice entails. I got into QiGong recently because I wanted to connect with my body and my own internal energies and understand more about health, life force, qi and all such awesomeness.

 

Returning to the Void, or however you want to put it is not on my bucketlist.

 

But it is on so many of yours. And I want to understand more. Because I love you all

 

Thanks,

Sri

[Flolfolil]

yeah i think i might get bored not existing or not not existing i think part of me really likes to suffer sometimes

[Protector]

 

My question is Why?

 

I have no freaking clue

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Ending rebirth isn't ceasing to exist as an individual, although that is how it's presented at shallower levels of understanding.

 

You still go places and experience, but voluntarily, and experiencing nirvana as absolutely non-dual from samsara.

 

Do you want to be forced to forget all your experiences and be born again infinite times - as insects, fish, and humans in poverty?

 

Seriously, imagine learning the same lessons in school an infinite number of times!

 

If you want to have lots of experience, end your rebirth so you can actually remember it all, and choose where you go.

[Ish]

You may be a human in good conditions this time around... But who know's where you'll be next time.

[SriChi]

Seeker of Tao said:

 

Ending rebirth isn't ceasing to exist as an individual, although that is how it's presented at shallower levels of understanding.

You still go places and experience, but voluntarily, and experiencing nirvana as absolutely non-dual from samsara.

Do you want to be forced to forget all your experiences and be born again infinite times - as insects, fish, and humans in poverty?

Seriously, imagine learning the same lessons in school an infinite number of times!

If you want to have lots of experience, end your rebirth so you can actually remember it all, and choose where you go.

 

Ah, see, that I dig! I just refer to that as an expanded awareness. In fact that's what I mean by knowing myself deeper and understanding reality. So, we are actually talking about the same thing!

I'll read these references to 'rebirth' from this point of view from now.

However, I still can't find myself craving it, because I took this human form to have this present human experience. There is so much to appreciate right now while also acknowledging my own capacity to experience so much more! Life is good

Edited September 26, 2013 by SriChi

[C T]

In truth, there is nothing to end. It never began.

[Protector]

Do you want to be forced to forget all your experiences and be born again infinite times - as insects, fish, and humans in poverty?

 

Yes, that's why I don't get it

 

Even the story about the priest who is about to sacrifice a goat who used to be a priest in past life

These stories sound exactly like, "You want to go into heaven because you don't want to go to hell"

I don't feel any imediate danger from reincarnation

[3bob]

If rebirth is forced per karma then one is not yet completely free. (of Lord Yama's rule)

But when death dies one is truly free...

[thelerner]

Does it boil down to: Would we do it again?

 

If we were to die right now. Given a chance to choose non existence or another ride on this roller coaster we call life. Would we?

 

Do we say 'Thank you sir, can I have another!' or burn out and fade away?

Either way I think there's a Thank You that needs to be said, to something.

[RongzomFan]

ending rebirth = ending ignorance

[skydog]

Would like to hear other peoples perspectives on this.

 

Also if when one dies, one has a new incarnation, learns new things, is that part of nature?

 

Why did people value it so much?

 

Perhaps one feels good now, but in the past one may have had bad experiences so justifies things from their current feelings.

 

Its good to enjoy life, now right?

Edited September 27, 2013 by skydog

[林愛偉]

Life continues, it doesn't end, thus the idea of life and death itself is an illusion.The mind changes, the karmic conditions change, thus a new form manifests fit for the vibration of karma at that time, which is influenced from various other manifestation of itself. Thus the mind which continues to attach to what it manifests, will always be subject to its relative outcomes.

 

Things are only thought to be "new" because what was learned prior to the current life expression was forgotten, but not wiped out. Its influence is still there, hence a lifetime of ups and downs which seem to be a mystery in cause, sexual desire, which is misconceived as being something "natural" in the sense of being human, etc.

[thelerner]

ending rebirth = ending ignorance

Just so we're all on the same page. What does ending rebirth, mean to you? Poof, we're completely gone? Memory and soul? A simple complete off switch?

Edited September 27, 2013 by thelerner

[RongzomFan]

Just so we're all on the same page. What does ending rebirth, mean to you? Poof, we're completely gone? Memory and soul? A simple complete off switch?

 

In all Indian Dharma, rebirth has to do with ignorance.

 

According to atiyoga specifically, sentient beings are nothing more than incarnations of ignorance.

 

The only thing that transmigrates is delusion.

[thelerner]

In all Indian Dharma, rebirth has to do with ignorance.

 

According to atiyoga specifically, sentient beings are nothing more than incarnations of ignorance.

 

The only thing that transmigrates is delusion.

don't understand that. So, ending rebirth means .. what to you?

Maybe I'm phrasing it poorly. What happens if you don't have a rebirth?

[Taomeow]

In the early human traditions (retained to this day by, e.g., African shamanism), reincarnation was not only an absolutely universal belief but an uplifting, joyous one. A sentient being's indestructible ability to reincarnate and live again was thought of as the main thing to look forward to after death. The reward for good deeds was reincarnating close to your own people, your own land, back to the place in previous life that was so good to you. The punishment for wrongdoings was to reincarnate into foreign lands where nothing resonates with your soul's familiar theme and melody, and where no one has ever known or loved you. That was like starting life from scratch with no memory of the prior ones, and it was not as bad as to fail to reincarnate altogether (this punishment was retained for the absolutely evil only), but not as good as to be born in the same settlement where you lived out the years of your previous life in harmony with your kin. Taoism retains many echoes of this mindset. As Zhuangzi put it, "what will the great mother make me next? A rat's liver perhaps? Great! Where can she take me where it isn't good?.." Life wasn't thought of as suffering until it was made so...

 

Those who made it into suffering, ennui, meaningless and exhausting using-up of people turned "resources," "work forces," "armed forces" and other functional units of dehumanization, crafted religions for the masses to go with the new human condition they superimposed. These religions invariably devalued human life and human experience. If life is posited as suffering, illusion, or the result of past transgressions, this should exhaustively explain to you why you're working 18 hours a day for pennies, why your children go hungry, why you are forced or brainwashed to fight wars that don't seem to work out all that great toward your own or anyone else's happiness, and on and on. But if you do all this while believing that it's the default state of affairs brought about by incarnating, you won't question authority, instead you will question the value of life itself and conclude that it is not worth seeking a different framework for, not worth wrenching back from the usurpers and humanizing again. Which is exactly what the overlords want you to conclude.

[thelerner]

I was just listening to Robert Moss's work and he had an interesting take on the power of our beliefs and the graciousness of the Universe. Maybe in the afterlife you get what you believe. Your being follows the mythos you've bought into.

[Unlearner]

Hiya bums,

 

I admit I'm not a Taoist or a Buddhist. Far from it. My spiritual path is simply Unconditional Love.

 

Reading many threads here, I keep stumbling across this goal of ending rebirth which is a very common goal from all the religions I've had knowledge of.

 

My question is Why?

 

In many of the spiritual circles I hang out with, there is this constant struggle to "ascend", "escape samsara" etc.

 

Personally, I love being human and experiencing life. In fact experience is the whole point, all the varying kinds. It leads me deeper and deeper into myself.

 

Knowing myself more and thus understanding reality at a deeper level is what my spiritual practice entails. I got into QiGong recently because I wanted to connect with my body and my own internal energies and understand more about health, life force, qi and all such awesomeness.

 

Returning to the Void, or however you want to put it is not on my bucketlist.

 

But it is on so many of yours. And I want to understand more. Because I love you all

 

Thanks,

Sri

 

This is definitely a question I've asked many times (mostly to myself, since I rarely had many Buddhists or Taoists to talk to until I joined this forum). However, I've also considered the opposite, why one would strive for prolonging one's life or seeking immortality. This to me seemed the more impractical of the two in my younger days, as I never really understood the purpose of being immortal. In fact, I was more fearful of having to live as an immortal than I was of dying; to have a conscious stream of memories watching as the people in the world live their lives; time no longer having any meaning; watching as those you come to know and love pass away before you, leaving you alone. I think it is important to contemplate this thought as well while you contemplate ending the cycle of rebirth, along with every possibility in between.

 

With this in mind, allow me to share some of my thoughts in an extremely long-winded series of paragraphs which I'm sure you will become tired of reading after a while. I wouldn't say I have an answer for you, simply things that I have observed through the path I have followed. It is not particularly a strict Taoist or Buddhist view of things, as I still have much to learn about both of these before I make such a claim, but I certainly draw great influence from these philosophies.

 

I tend to approach concepts like this in several different directions, in order to attempt to gain a more complete understanding of all the possible answers to this "problem" (if you could call it that, but I'll get to that in a moment). I try to synthesize my understandings from my studies in physics with my contemplation and studying of philosophy, because it seems only appropriate that they should match up with each other.

 

Using this method, I have observed that there is something particular about the nature of the universe which seems to bring all sorts of different theories, both philosophical and scientific, into an agreement. I can't perfectly describe it yet, as I don't fully understand it myself, but if I were to describe it, I would say it is that which unifies everything together. It is the source from which things originate, not just at the beginning of the universe, but something that always exists and somehow permeates everything. It bestows things with their respective properties, but has no properties itself that can be observed. It is the Truth which hides behind the illusion of everything that we know, sense, and experience.

 

I would normally refer to this as Tao, since this concept certainly follows along with many of the same ideas. However, I decided that, rather than borrow terminologies from philosophical systems and languages of which my understanding is severely limited, I have chosen to call it in my own words an "undifferentiated reality", as this seems to fit my own descriptions for myself. I call it a "reality", because it seems to somehow affects everything that both exists and does not exist. I call it "undifferentiated" because it is what originates things that, when they come into existence, become a uniquely separated duality, such as light and no light (dark), matter and no matter (space), positive and negative, etc.

 

So what does all this have to do with ending the cycle of rebirth or immortality? To be honest, I do not know about death and reincarnation, nor do I know about immortality. None of that is contained within my understanding, regardless of any of my contemplation or studying. In my understanding, I think that these two things are different ways of striving for a similar end. This end is to not simply know, but to once again join with the undifferentiated state in which we originated before we existed. It is to return to the source, to reattain the ultimate simplicity, to find absolute harmony with everything. The goal is not to cease, nor is it to continue on, but rather to realize that both of these are illusions, beyond which lies the real Truth (though I regret using that word, I will for the sake of making this a little shorter use it in this context). To return to that Truth is the true end, so how can you return to the source when you are caught up in living your life for petty ends? To realize this is to realize (as I mentioned before) that there is no longer a "problem" of life and death to be solved; it is simply another thing to obscure the natural way of everything.

 

Again, these are merely my own observations. As a newer, less experienced member, if anyone has anything they would like to add or contest to my response, I would be most interested in listening. I hope this may have been in some way informative, SriChi (or at least entertaining to read ).

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

 

My question is Why?

 

 

 

If you want an honest answer I'll give you one.

 

Call me an emo if you like.

 

Life is hell, and those that enjoy it most are the ones most in denial about it.

 

Everything you love will die, everything you do is meaningless.

 

To quote Kansas:

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHyhZi72fUc

"Dust In The Wind"

 

I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment's gone

All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity

Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind

Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea

All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see

 

Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind

 

Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky

It slips away, all your money won't another minute buy

 

Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind

 

 

 

Most religions, and spiritual practices are about making you ok with what is going to happen to you, very few are about trying to change the very nature of the situation you are in.

 

I want to do something about the situation I am, I don't want to be narcotized, or stiff upper lip about it.

 

There are various cases for what can happen to you after death:

 

1. Permanent cessation of consciousness. Going to sleep and never waking up.

 

2. Eternal afterlife of some sort.

 

3. Reincarnation. Forgetting previous life and beginning as some new organism somewhere.

 

The only one of these options I find unacceptable is starting again, over and over and over and over.

 

I'm done. I want this to be my last rodeo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

______________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The punishment for wrongdoings was to reincarnate into foreign lands where nothing resonates with your soul's familiar theme and melody, and where no one has ever known or loved you.

Well that explains it then.

 

I must have been literally Hitler or Genghis Khan in my past life, because people in general feel absolutely alien to me, almost nothing in this society/world resonates with my soul.

 

 

I see so much ****ing potential, we could literally be as Gods if we wanted it, not in 1000 years but right NOW.

 

Unlimited resources, unlimited intelligence, unlimited energy, unlimited whatever we wanted, no death, no pain, no suffering, no ignorance.

 

And instead of anyone actually caring about the fact we could actually be Gods RIGHT NOW, we are more concerned with Miley Cyrus little badonka-donk *** at the VMAs and watching Honey BOO BOO and Duck Dynasty.

 

Seriously, I don't get humans at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

______________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was just listening to Robert Moss's work and he had an interesting take on the power of our beliefs and the graciousness of the Universe. Maybe in the afterlife you get what you believe. Your being follows the mythos you've bought into.

 

 

 

What happens to those that believe they don't know?

Edited September 27, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[3bob]

Kansas doesn't know jack,

[SriChi]

Suffering

 

What is suffering?

 

You may be a human in good conditions this time around... But who know's where you'll be next time.

 

See, when I subscribe to Unconditional Love, I automatically subscribe to Free Will and Choice. I believe everything that happens to me is my Soul nudging me to look deeper, to feel deeper into my reality and my Self. I look at people going through very difficult circumstances from the same perspective. I honor them for choosing such difficult lessons and pray that they find their answers and resolutions.

 

I've had a particularly challenging year. It is not like it is over yet. I still feel scraps of irrational fear, self-doubt, lack and so on and so forth. I also choose to engage with all of this from a deep trust for myself and the present moment.

 

Whilst my life might not be in shambles, I choose to not downplay my own personal pain by comparing myself to another's deeper tragedy. There is no love in that.

 

I am compassionate for the people who suffer, and I also honor and respect them. I cannot change another person's life. All I can do is live my truth and maybe kindle others to find their own.

 

So, wherever I'm next time, I know I will have chosen to be there and will embrace it for what it is. Let's just hope I don't forget (which is also part of the game, of course)

 

Yes, that's why I don't get it

 

Even the story about the priest who is about to sacrifice a goat who used to be a priest in past life

These stories sound exactly like, "You want to go into heaven because you don't want to go to hell"

I don't feel any imediate danger from reincarnation

 

 

Nailed it. There is this carrot and stick going on. With the carrot being non-existence and the stick being life!

 

 

If rebirth is forced per karma then one is not yet completely free. (of Lord Yama's rule)

But when death dies one is truly free...

 

Free from? - oh I see. From Lord Yama. Hmm... all I have to say to that is OK. Because, I don't know!

 

ending rebirth = ending ignorance

 

Ah, such a refreshingly different perspective! I look at ignorance as innocence and as a gift. If I were all-knowing, now that would be sad.

 

Which is why reincarnation is so fun! Because, you never know what the next moment will bring.

Edited September 27, 2013 by SriChi

[Thunder_Gooch]

Kansas doesn't know jack,

LOL

[Taomeow]

 

Well that explains it then.

 

I must have been literally Hitler or Genghis Khan in my past life, because people in general feel absolutely alien to me, almost nothing in this society/world resonates with my soul.

 

 

I see so much ****ing potential, we could literally be as Gods if we wanted it, not in 1000 years but right NOW.

 

Unlimited resources, unlimited intelligence, unlimited energy, unlimited whatever we wanted, no death, no pain, no suffering, no ignorance.

 

And instead of anyone actually caring about the fact we could actually be Gods RIGHT NOW, we are more concerned with Miley Cyrus little badonka-donk *** at the VMAs and watching Honey BOO BOO and Duck Dynasty.

 

Seriously, I don't get humans at all.

 

According to some teachings (e.g. Eleusinian mysteries of Greece), difficult lifetimes are also a choice your greater spirit has made when deciding on the circumstances for its next incarnation. I used to hate this line of ideation with a passion because I thought all it was about was the powerless in denial trying to convince themselves and/or others that they have the power, the deprived of free will pretending they are not. What convinced me at least halfway that this might indeed be the case though is my own choice of difficult cultivation practices in this life. Very difficult sometimes, hard on the body, hard on the mind, occasionally devastating or horrifying or demanding beyond capacity. Yet I know that I, the me of this-here life, have indeed chosen them myself, strangely enough -- toward something I value more than the immediate gratification of taking it easy and seeking comfort and minimizing the effort.

 

So why, was I thinking all of a sudden, why can't this be the case with my higher self too? Can't she have chosen an extremely high-stress incarnation toward a similar non-obvious non-instant-gratification goal of hers, on her own level of tasks and methods of accomplishing them?..

 

Have you ever thought of it this way?

Edited September 27, 2013 by Taomeow

[SriChi]

^ Me likey. Meow!