Rotating the Lower Dan Tien

[ricemaster]

I'm reading Damo Mitchell's "Daoist Nei Gong". He teaches a practice of rotating the lower Dan Tien, that is using the mind to turn the lower Dan Tien forward (down the front and up the back).

 

I have never come across this practice before. I wonder if you know of any other references to it and the general opinion about such practice.

Thank you!

[cheya]

Look into Feng Zhiqiang's teachings on Hunyuan: tai chi ruler, bang (stick), and ball are practices that help you train this. Searching "Chen Techniques for rotating the dantian" will get you lots of material!

 

I've been interested in this for awhile, and below are some links from my files. Can I do it? Not yet, but I think I'm getting there! I found lots more interesting stuff trying to locate the urls for you. Thanks for posting!

 

 

 

http://austinchentaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Chen-Techniques-for-Rotating-the-Dantian.pdf

 

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/egroup2.html

 

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/dantian.html

 

http://tao-meditation.blogspot.com/2011/09/golden-elixir-and-dantian-inner-roll.html

[dwai]

I'm reading Damo Mitchell's "Daoist Nei Gong". He teaches a practice of rotating the lower Dan Tien, that is using the mind to turn the lower Dan Tien forward (down the front and up the back).

 

I have never come across this practice before. I wonder if you know of any other references to it and the general opinion about such practice.

 

Thank you!

 

 

Read master Liao's tai chi classics book - he covers the Dan tian rotation in detail in the book.

[Apech]

It happens anyway without any effort.

[mjjbecker]

Look into Feng Zhiqiang's teachings on Hunyuan: tai chi ruler, bang (stick), and ball are practices that help you train this. Searching "Chen Techniques for rotating the dantian" will get you lots of material!

 

I've been interested in this for awhile, and below are some links from my files. Can I do it? Not yet, but I think I'm getting there! I found lots more interesting stuff trying to locate the urls for you. Thanks for posting!

 

 

 

http://austinchentaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Chen-Techniques-for-Rotating-the-Dantian.pdf

 

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/egroup2.html

 

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/dantian.html

 

http://tao-meditation.blogspot.com/2011/09/golden-elixir-and-dantian-inner-roll.html

 

Indeed, as according to Damo Mitchell's website, much of the qigong training in his school comes from the Hunyuan method:

 

http://lotusneigong.com/content/?page_id=27

 

 

...he studied the Hunyuan system of grandmaster Feng over a period of several years. He lived and studied with master Ni when in Northern China and also studied the system with other teachers such as Qi Zhaoling and Chen Xiu. The Qi Gong system studied here also formed a large part of Lotus Nei Gong’s syllabus.

[ChiDragon]

Good question...!!!
Who is going to come up with a good answer for this one.....???

Edited September 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

If one is a beginner, or not energetically "flow"ing throughout the body, what is the point/benefit to rotating the ldt?

Without flowing energetically, LDT rotation is going to be a purely imaginary exercise initially. But on the other hand, the flow can get initiated by first imagining it (because the Qi follows the Yi).

[dawei]

If one is a beginner, or not energetically "flow"ing throughout the body, what is the point/benefit to rotating the ldt?

 

It depends on what one's goals or objectives are in regards to internal energy practices and the development of the LDT.

 

If breathing oriented practice is enough for someone, then that is fine and that is where they will remain; with at least a new awareness of energy and the LDT. Nothing wrong with that as that is the foundation.

 

Think of it as concentric circles or ripples in a pond. You start at the smallest circle, where the rock enters the water. The rock entering the water is akin to learning to drop the breath/Qi all the way down to the LDT. That generates all the rest of the potential ripples... which ripples outwardly you move to are dependent on the additional internal energy practices pursued.

 

You'll hear some here talk about these higher level practices, develop of energy and experiences, etc...and you can get a idea of what is going on but you'll never really understand it unless you do it, and one really has no ability to speak to such issues until they practice and experience it.

 

So it depends on your goals regarding internal energy work and the LDT...

[SonOfTheGods]

If one is a beginner, or not energetically "flow"ing throughout the body, what is the point/benefit to rotating the ldt?

 

In magick, a moving visual is easier to imagine/hold than a steady one.

 

The mind innately yearns to move, so accomodate it.

 

All my Dan Tiens do that flipping and spinning, naturally.

 

Dynamic > Static

Edited September 29, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[JohnC]

Indeed, as according to Damo Mitchell's website, much of the qigong training in his school comes from the Hunyuan method:

 

http://lotusneigong.com/content/?page_id=27

 

Woa... and Feng's master was Hu Yao Zhen.... small world.

[Bearded Dragon]

Have played around with doing this in martial arts. Rotating someone else's ldt. Didn't seem to do anything beneficial in any regard. Move your intent a few inches back to the sacrum and people start moving. Not sure if there is any point other than refining the size of it smaller. As has been said this happens naturally as has been told to me by quite a number of people who are quite experienced.

[dawei]

RV: I'll give an example for its use... and others may have some in regards to the Chen Style Tai Ji which is it well known part of.

 

Let's say one wants to do the MCO... maybe because they want to deal with blockages or reclaim vitality. Whatever.

 

One method to help in the visualization is to use a 'pearl' and orbit the pearl... but how to get a pearl?

 

As a procurer to the MCO, one wants to gather sufficent Qi as it should never be done in a depleted state; Qi easily scatters, etc.

 

One method is to breath into the LDT, I prefer to bring in through the crown (heavenly Qi) and heels (Earthly Qi), several times and get the stove warmed up... then start to let the heavenly Qi descend to the front of the LDT and the earthly Qi to ascend to the back of the LDT... this will start the rotation and one can use their hands in a circular motion to help encourage their visualization if they want.

 

Let it rotate for a while and continue like this but then start to compress the energy (which starts off the size of a drum) to a smaller and smaller size... eventually refined to a pearl. Stop the pearl spinning, drop it into the Huiyin and start the MCO. After done, expand the pearl back...

 

There are probably hundreds of different practices one might be involved in where they use such techniques. This is just one. This comes from Jerry Johnson's Medical Qigong program.

[hydrogen]

It happens anyway without any effort.

 

Is your LDT rotates by itself? How does it feel? Thanks.

[PLB]

Is your LDT rotates by itself? How does it feel?

 

I hope Apech answers your question but I would like to say how it feels to me. The dantien is gyroscope that spins all directions. When I "intend" one direction, I am feeling what it is already doing in that direction. I am not setting it into motion but adjusting the mind to the degree necessary to experience it. A bigger mind than mine mind could notice more and so maybe.....

[Apech]

Is your LDT rotates by itself? How does it feel? Thanks.

 

My style of practice is 90% natural and unforced. At one stage from doing sitting meditation my gaze would focus on the LDT and it would start to churn. Sometimes it was pleasant and sometimes not - when it was unpleasant it felt like I was being purged of 'bad' energy and sometimes I would feel a bit sick and my body became kind of heavy and unsettled. Otherwise usually it resulted in a feeling a bit like going up in a lift, floor by floor in fairly quick succession and then a light going on in my head. This would subside and then the process start again. This was quite a number of years ago when this happened regularly ... now it does not tend to happen as it was a result of a particular stage to do with the filling of LDT.

[joeblast]

Mine feels like a scalar potential that vectors when needed/wanted/commanded

 

oh, and

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li%C3%A9nard%E2%80%93Wiechert_potential

[Taomeow]

..

Edited October 4, 2013 by Taomeow

[Chainer]

Hi, new to the forum and looking for the same specific advice on effective ways to force LDT rotation.

 

Have also come to Nei Gong through Damo's books (practiced without a teacher), after years of Zen that took me so far, with an interest bought on by accidental experiences in my youth. Got stuck and realized I need a much stronger foundation - ultimately I need to improve the openness of my thrusting meridian. Have practiced Sung breathing/spine flexibility for several years and content I have a far less blockages, have a reasonable energy body connection and have sorted out my level of Yi/focus.

 

This has improved my Zen no end, with now regular experiences of the 'the moon in water', ie seeing a pin prick of light that then rapidly expands out in my vision over 5 mins or so, that was only sporadic previously. However it is not a strong/defined white light, more of a hollow wave front/ripple thats sparkles.

 

Have a slight connection with my LDT, ie I can feel it 'tickle' and perhaps 'catch' occasionally when focusing on it, never a nice feeling but seemingly driven by its movement. Not a constant 'fish' or feather rolling however.

 

Specifically, the advice I'm looking for is as follows -

 

1. How best to control your breathing to spin my LDT vertically forward, ie down at front/up at the back? I've seen that reverse abdominal breathing is seen as the most effective way but opinions vary.. Am now trying this - breathing strongly into my upper abdomen whilst holding lower abs with light tension and by raising my coccyx on inhalation only. This seems to pump up the pit of my belly but feels very unnatural. Does seem to do something however - get a lot of tension/pressure along mid spine/upper back. Am aiming to do one full rotation per in/out breath, for rapid improvement.

 

2. How best to open my Thrusting Meridian, perhaps using the basic back exercises/focus on Jing, whatever? Have tried Damo's version of focusing on coccyx, letting the heat generate and then waiting for the vibration to start up my spine however its not really working for me.

 

Be really, really grateful for any real world advice, based on forced, physical techniques (however difficult) that others have found to work! Happy to do Tai Chi movements, however would rather have the specific move, rather than a long combination or sequence, as practice alone.

 

Please, no philosophical or 'let nature take its course' answers, no interest in esoteric or coded language. No need to be safe, I'm a grown up and looking for short cuts/speed ups and therefore happy to take my chances. Had many surreal experiences over the years and don't scare easy.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Wells]

2. How best to open my Thrusting Meridian

 

You best open meridians by simply cultivating a dense and full chi first and then circulating it through the meridians.

Such a chi will naturally open up fully every meridian through which it is circulated.

[SonOfTheGods]

Hi, new to the forum and looking for the same specific advice on effective ways to force LDT rotation.

Don't force anything.

[Chainer]

You best open meridians by simply cultivating a dense and full chi first and then circulating it through the meridians.

Such a chi will naturally open up fully every meridian through which it is circulated.

 

Thanks for your interest - agree that raw pressure is a great basis for this and do use it, ie routinely do my own version of 9 bottled wind with this in mind.

 

However... do you not agree that as we are working with a tangible substance that acts like a think liquid (in my experience) adding a 'pumping' action (eg forced breathing), using 'heating' to increase its energetic activity (eg bellows effect of ab tension), and/or lessening the resistance (eg spine flexing) would be beneficial at all?

[Wells]

Thanks for your interest - agree that raw pressure is a great basis for this and do use it, ie routinely do my own version of 9 bottled wind with this in mind.

 

However... do you not agree that as we are working with a tangible substance that acts like a think liquid (in my experience) adding a 'pumping' action (eg forced breathing), using 'heating' to increase its energetic activity (eg bellows effect of ab tension), and/or lessening the resistance (eg spine flexing) would be beneficial at all?

 

All legid systems I know work with a version of "compressed" breathing!

[Chainer]

Don't force anything.

 

Do agree with you in terms of forced Intention/Yi - for me this acts a 'freeze spray' that can be hugely counterproductive.

 

However, I don't agree in terms of using forced techniques as a process in a disassociated state - many traditions that deal with energy work use some form of forcing/shock type encouragement. Therefore, when you separate out the Yi/desire of your petty ego 'to force' and concentrate on a forcing 'technique' itself, then there is little or no issue.

[joeblast]

theres a difference between turning a handle, opening a door, walking through..

 

...and ramming your way through a locked door with a battering ram.

[Chainer]

theres a difference between turning a handle, opening a door, walking through..

 

...and ramming your way through a locked door with a battering ram.

 

Nice analogy and very true... however the point is the 'goal' you are aiming for, the process of how you get there is a meaningless mechanical/intellectual device...

 

By definition any 'effort' to cultivate is a forced technique is it not, from the wonderfully gentle rapid enlightenment school of Soto Zen on up?

 

Its simply the degree of effort and risk, and I've wasted far to much time on vague and shoddy processes (that I was not ready for) already in my life.. Hope you understand - I've no interest in waiting for my 'kettle to boil' of its own 'accord', particularly as I have some real insight in to what (not so nice but very real) 'things' can hinder this.....

 

The one thing I really love about Daosim is there is no attempt to 'sanctify' the meaningless details of process with false morality, (eg making prayer holy) other than at a local/master level, even in the classic early writings.