Rotating the Lower Dan Tien

[joeblast]

if you spin the wheels, just dont forget to put it back in park and shut the engine before getting out of the car

[freeform]

When it comes to advice, freeform is a wise and trusted source.

 

been a while, good to see back.

Thanks Michael. I do miss this place sometimes! I'm glad to see lots of the old-timers still hanging around

 

if you spin the wheels, just dont forget to put it back in park and shut the engine before getting out of the car

Yes indeed. In fact once the LDT starts spinning well, you'll have plenty of spontaneous movements which will get all sorts of energetic processes moving in your energy body. It's important to slowly stop, close down and store any freed up qi or you'll go nuts

Edited October 19, 2014 by freeform

[Ya Mu]

This is the only proper Taoist method:

[Bearded Dragon]

What I feel in regards to rotation of the dantian has changed a bit since I last posted. Thought I'd mention it here if anyone is interested.

 

I've been playing around with rotating the lower dantian vertically. If you go from the direction of the front, upwards, then down the back, then I feel that this has a corresponding effect with launching chi up the spine. If you do it the other direction the focus seems to shift from the back at the spine to the front. If you do both at once (which I only just tried as I'm typing this) then it seems to do both. Right at this moment I'm figuring that the dantian must rotate both ways (intentionally or unintentionally) if the MCO is opened properly.

[Orion]

This talk of "rotating" the dantian is a little too conceptual. If you look at what the lower dantian is generally connected to meridionally, there are only so many directions it can go (in healthy physiology, anyway); but as it is analogous to a polaric energy potential and not a material vehicle, multiple potentials can be activated at once. Qi is higher than 3D so it's not confined to spatial vectors, it just has a "home base" based on how the reservoirs are formed as part of our early embryology. The energy of the dantians can be cultivated to move anywhere, but most of those directions will not be healthy. Maybe I'm being too daoist about it but I don't really see the point of trying to tweak the MCO in this way.

 

Any time you move the qi of the lower dantian somewhere, another aspect in the qi dynamic will react to it. The dantian does not move in vacuo, just like yin and yang move each other if either gets moved. If you change one pole of a field dynamic, its opposite pole will react. You're just observing the current polarities compensating for one another, in their natural "home base" reservoirs.

 

All of the body's physical processes are rooted in the life gate of the dantian, so its energy is naturally multi-directional to begin with. The only difference is that in physiology, its qi is transformed into other processes to be used more efficiently. What you're doing when you move it is just moving its raw form.

 

I saw talk of the belt meridian earlier. This is my favourite meridian to work with. It's the only one that connects all the major channels together, and it affects the smoothness of the vertical flow. It acts as a reservoir for stronger channels to pour excess into, and weaker channels to draw from. It's balancing mechanism in the natural qi dynamic. I find that if you work with the belt meridian in any MCO practice, it makes the MCO rotate faster, more smoothly, more clearly. You can also take some of that extraneous organ qi and put it back into the dantian, or vice versa... fill the dai with the dantian qi and it will go to which meridians need help, without you having to go through the trouble of circulating individual meridians. I don't recommend it if you have a lot of meridian blockages though.

[Hancock]

 "... fill the dai with the dantian qi and it will go to which meridians need help, without you having to go through the trouble of circulating individual meridians. I don't recommend it if you have a lot of meridian blockages though."

I'm unsure what Orion means by fill the Dai with the dantian qi, I'm sure it's a point but i've learned from a teacher who I no longer am in contact with so I'm not 100% on the terms ya'll use. So if someone could help with a definition of the Dai, and what it means to fill the Dai with Dantian Qi (Which is it referencing Stored Chi or cooked Chi/ki?) that'd be great. 

 

Also looking for Circulation techniques and stagnation/sick qi removal techniques, got lots to read up on and the researching doesn't stop. The way I've learned about this stuff sounds simplified, whereas the stuff I'm reading on here sounds more detailed and is more intellectual than i'm used too. Also some of the techniques i've been taught are similar yet are lacking the details and depths that ya'll have on here and to be honest unrecognizable until I reread it several times lol, but Thanks again for ya'll's experience and help.

 

 

""You best open meridians by simply cultivating a dense and full chi first and then circulating it through the meridians.

Such a chi will naturally open up fully every meridian through which it is circulated." Quoted from Wells earlier in this article

 

I'm pretty sure I've got a practical method of cultivating a dense and full chi, but any methods you feel like sharing are okay or pointing to a forum where I can read on it would be welcome. 

 

Circulating the chi through the meridians is one of the things I'm attempting to learn so if someone could point the direction out that'd be great. I'll keep looking on here.

[Mudfoot]

Dai = Dai Mai, the belt vessel(s).

And you can try to do it, or just have your intention on the lower dantien until stuff starts to happen on their own.

A good zhan zhuan will definitly help.

[DSCB57]

A few posts back someone stated that the LDT Qi could only move in certain directions, and that aside from these this would lead to movements which were bad for the system. What I would like to contribute is that I think it depends what actually brought about this Qi rotation around the LDT. In my case I had been experimenting with physical rotation of the Baihui, when I noticed that shortly afterward I could feel a similar rotation happening within the LDT. Rotating the eyes or Huiyin had a similar effect. I found that after this all I need to do is think about it and the Qi will rotate within the LDT in whichever direction I desire. There are basically the following directions according to my experimentation: horizontal circling left/right, vertical circling and circling as though one were forming a circle directly in front of the LDT right and left. Then there are also other non circular directions such as left to right, as I was taught in Yiquan/Dachengquan martial practice, or front to back and back to front etc.

 

I would be interested in hearing people's views on this phenomenon and these directions of movement.

 

I would also like to hear from any of you who are able to explain how this practice might help with more profound/advanced inner cultivation practices.

[Sudhamma]

There are three types of rotations that I do: the vertical LDT from back to front, the dai-mai rotation, anti-clockwise, and a frontal circular rotation of the abdomen. The vertical LDT rotation helps to clean the bladder and improves libido. The dai-mai rotation improves the meridians between the upper and lower torso, and the frontal abdomen rotation, the internal massaging of the organs in the abdomen. Rotation is gradual and not speeded up and in sync with the breathing. Except for the vertical LDT rotation, the other two are already in the forms that I practised. 

[DSCB57]

There are three types of rotations that I do: the vertical LDT from back to front, the dai-mai rotation, anti-clockwise, and a frontal circular rotation of the abdomen. The vertical LDT rotation helps to clean the bladder and improves libido. The dai-mai rotation improves the meridians between the upper and lower torso, and the frontal abdomen rotation, the internal massaging of the organs in the abdomen. Rotation is gradual and not speeded up and in sync with the breathing. Except for the vertical LDT rotation, the other two are already in the forms that I practised.

 

Thank you Sudhamma. I think I need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing. I admit that I had not read through all the previous posts when I posted my question, but one thing I just picked up on was the fact that this practice seems very intrinsic to the Chen Hunyuan system. I taught myself the Hunyuan 12 some time ago and practised the form for a few years. Although I learnt the form from a combination of written and video instruction which I found online, I picked up on the use of RAB which desñite not being mentioned in the written instructions it seemed pretty clear to me the this was what Master Feng Zhiqiang was doing in the videos. In any case I found myself naturally adopting this breathing when practising the Hunyuan 12 form.

Interestingly I now suspect that the period during which I continued to practise the form I may have been doing the groundwork for what I am experiencing now. There are other neigong practices I haven't mentioned which doubtless further contributed to this development. However I feel rather uncomfortable with many posts in which people have described the use of forceful methods in order to get the LDT to rotate. I tend to feel that a more healthy approach would be to have the rotation occur as a natural result of the cultivation method one happens to be practising, as seems to have been the case with me.

But I digress. I said that I wanted to be sure that we are talking about the same experience. Some posters have written describing the rotation of the LDT itself. Desñite the fact that I understand how a form such as the Hunyuan 12 could cause this to occur, it is not what I am talking about. That seems more akin to the rotating Falun from Falun Gong. What I am talking about is the feeling of rotations *inside* the LDT. I first became aware of this after some time practising an exercise I invented myself, part of which was rotating the Baihui, Huiyin and the physical eyes around an imaginary sphere in every possible direction. In fact it is far more involved than what I described, in that I started from the Baihui and worked down through every joint and vertebra right down to the toes. Then one day I began to feel an energetic link between these rotations and the LDT. Then I realised that when I rotated my eyes there was a corresponding sensation in the LDT, after which once I got down to the Huiyin I could really feel the internal movement very strongly. At times it would suddenly jump forward, and deliver power right to my fingertips during Yiquan practice. Then when I bought myself a Taiji ball and began practising with it the sensation in my LDT became more pronounced, and I could feel an energetic connection between the ball and the LDT. I learnt the Taiji ball exercises from Yang Jwingming's instruction videos along with my own intuition.I don't pay much attention to the phenomenon now, since my main practice is presently the Flying Phoenix Qigong until my health improves. But the sensation is always there, like a potential for Fajing for example. I don't know how else to describe it. So are we talking about the same thing?

[Mark Foote]

I'll confess what I do is sit the lotus for 40 minutes in the morning, whenever possible, and all I know is the first part of Cheng Man-Ching's form from free lessons in the park (thanks, Steve Rose!).

 

What I see is that there are two mechanisms of support for the lower spine, one in the displacement of the fascia immediately behind the sacrum (by the mass of the extensors pressing rearward as they contract, usually in a natural alternation), and another in the displacement of the fascia behind the lower spine by pressure from the "fluid ball" of the abdomen (the term is from D. L. Bartilink).  The fascia is the lumbodorsal fascia in both cases, but the coordination of these two means of support is effected by the autonomic nervous system as part of the movement of breath.  Looks like this:

 

The bent-leg posture brings forward these relationships, yet the relinquishment of habitual activity in the movement of breath remains central to the experience of overall coordination.  

 

The rotation of the mind at the dan tien is an experience of the coordination of the sense of equalibrium (vestibular organs) with the sense of proprioception (proprioceptors in the joints, muscles, and ligaments), the sense of gravity (otoliths), and the sense of vision (due to the tight connection between the sense of vision and the sense of equalibrium).  
 

"To unfurl the red flag of victory over your head, whirl the twin swords behind your ears—if not for a discriminating eye and a familiar hand, how could anyone be able to succeed?"

 

("The Blue Cliff Record", trans. T. and J.C. Cleary, case 37 pg 274)

 

The experience of self-location through equalibrioception, informed by the "familiar hand" of proprioception and the "discriminating eye" that recognizes its role in self-location, can move.  To the extent that equalibrioception is a part of the experience of self-location, there is pitch, yaw, and roll connected with the experience, and the coordination of these senses in the experience of self-location can amount to a turning of "mind" (a turning of the experience of self-location) at the lower dan tien, on occasion.

 

I rely on the bent-leg postures and a natural inhalation and exhalation as my teacher.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Sudhamma]

Hi DSCB57, the many contributors here who wrote about forcefully rotate LDT do not meant physical force by moving the muscles in that area. As you know, qi moves with mental intent, and for beginners, qi is not felt to move even with great mental exertion. The rotating qi will move the muscles. It should come naturally with practice and in sync with the breathing (RAB); the rotation is not forced (physically). The method in activating the baihui in a downward spiral is not new nor innovative. The downward spiral takes a decreed direction, simultaneously, the earth energy comes up via yongchuen towards LDT until one feels both energies have reached LDT . Once that happens, the spiralling changes direction from LDT pushing the combined energy to yongchuen and exiting into the depths of the earth. The energy entering baihui is taken from three heavenly bodies of the sun, moon and the big dipper, the northstar. This sytem is taught in Baqua Ruyigong. The spiralling affects the entire body as the body moves subtly in unison. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Sudhamma]

Hi again DSCB57, you asked whether your practice is the same to what I practised. The dai-mai horizontal rotation: the internal qi movement initiates the physical movement of the form. Whereas the qi in the frontal internal abdominal rotation is initiated by external massage in one form, and by qi on a vertical plane on a front-to-back excluding the massage as in the LDT rotation, in another. The LDT rotation that I do, do not activate the huiyin nor baihui, and (but) allows the energy to radiates from LDT to the rest of the body, and after a while, from there to fully initiates the RAB with MCO. It will take a few years of consistent effort for the practitioner to rotate  LDT involuntarily like what you have accomplished while many of us are still doing it consciously and with mental focus. About jumping forward, is this good or bad? Some qigong masters are happy about it, but some don't. The argument against the spring action is either that the student has not harnest the external energy, and not rooted sufficiently to bring it in to the body, or there is a strong leak of energy to the ground. This is the same argument against students swaying in a zhanzhuang posture (but in this case, its the qi-leaking to the environment and the qi is not stable). Perhaps, practitioners of Spontaneous Qigong systems can bring in their insights on this phenomenon.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Sudhamma

[allinone]

your stomach naturally "spins" after having a good meal, being not angry and disturbed. Its called letting bread into a bones time.

 

otherwords maybe, internal organs communicates with bonemarrow.

[[email protected]]

From my point of view its better to avoid all manipulations with mind in attempts to do smth with Dan tians. The reason is very simple - our mind can produce only a vision of smth happening when it doesn't. So it can turn us to illusions of the results and deviations difficult to correct further.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hi again DSCB57, you asked whether your practice is the same to what I practised. The dai-mai horizontal rotation: the internal qi movement initiates the physical movement of the form. Whereas the qi in the frontal internal abdominal rotation is initiated by external massage in one form, and by qi on a vertical plane on a front-to-back excluding the massage as in the LDT rotation, in another. The LDT rotation that I do, do not activate the huiyin nor baihui, and (but) allows the energy to radiates from LDT to the rest of the body, and after a while, from there to fully initiates the RAB with MCO. It will take a few years of consistent effort for the practitioner to rotate  LDT involuntarily like what you have accomplished while many of us are still doing it consciously and with mental focus. About jumping forward, is this good or bad? Some qigong masters are happy about it, but some don't. The argument against the spring action is either that the student has not harnest the external energy, and not rooted sufficiently to bring it in to the body, or there is a strong leak of energy to the ground. This is the same argument against students swaying in a zhanzhuang posture (but in this case, its the qi-leaking to the environment and the qi is not stable). Perhaps, practitioners of Spontaneous Qigong systems can bring in their insights on this phenomenon.

You mention swaying in zhan zhuang as qi-leaking to the environment, but it is still related to motion in the LDT?

What about exercises that make use of gentle swaying? Do they have a place in this topic or am i mixing things up?

[Sudhamma]

Hi Rocky Lionmouth, the swaying motion during zhanzhuang has nothing to do with rotating LDT. Its my observation of various systems, like Taiji-zhanzhuang and Xing-I zhanzhuang. Exercises that requires swaying as part of the motion exercise for joints and sinews is perfectly alright, like Huichoongong for instance. I've not seen zhanzhuang with instructions to sway the body. Even the One Finger Zen, Iizichangong, swaying is not part of the routine. Wei-dan gong on the other hand requires vibrating and shooking the body and limbs. So, swaying is accepted if it is part of the system. 

[Mudfoot]

Even the One Finger Zen, Iizichangong, swaying is not part of the routine.

 

In this system, the swaying happens when you open up some of the channels, and stops when they are more open.

But you can get addicted to the Swaying, in which case it will continue.

 

In my experience, this hinders further development.

[Sudhamma]

Hi Mudfoot, with proper rooting and focus, the swaying in practising iizichangong should stop, but some instructors either do not know how to assist the student (to stop) or encourage the swaying (as a manifestation of qi!). In my early days in qigong, I had put in some time into this system, and my classmates who swayed were more susceptible to fevers and colds. Actually instead of getting healthier, they became weaker. 

[Mudfoot]

Now this thread is moving into a parallel topic, the pros and cons of spontaneous movements. There is an active thread about that. But sure, some have good experiences with it and some have not so good.

[Sudhamma]

Agreed. We will stop this digression and get back to the intent of the OP.

[DSCB57]

Hi again DSCB57, you asked whether your practice is the same to what I practised. The dai-mai horizontal rotation: the internal qi movement initiates the physical movement of the form. Whereas the qi in the frontal internal abdominal rotation is initiated by external massage in one form, and by qi on a vertical plane on a front-to-back excluding the massage as in the LDT rotation, in another. The LDT rotation that I do, do not activate the huiyin nor baihui, and (but) allows the energy to radiates from LDT to the rest of the body, and after a while, from there to fully initiates the RAB with MCO. It will take a few years of consistent effort for the practitioner to rotate  LDT involuntarily like what you have accomplished while many of us are still doing it consciously and with mental focus. About jumping forward, is this good or bad? Some qigong masters are happy about it, but some don't. The argument against the spring action is either that the student has not harnest the external energy, and not rooted sufficiently to bring it in to the body, or there is a strong leak of energy to the ground. This is the same argument against students swaying in a zhanzhuang posture (but in this case, its the qi-leaking to the environment and the qi is not stable). Perhaps, practitioners of Spontaneous Qigong systems can bring in their insights on this phenomenon.

Thank you Sudhamma, and my apologies for my absence. I have practised spontaneous movement Qigong, but to be honest I am a little confused as to the correct name for the form. The instructor who taught it to me has since changed his name and become an authorized Shaolin healing monk - using the same system he taught me. He called it 'The Golden Tablets 5 Elements Qigong'. He used to first draw the Qi in through the Baihui, then enter the state in which he could then 'charge up' his students either to heal them or assist in their MA practice. He was a Steel Wire Praying Mantis master, but apparently he was taught this technique by a grateful Sifu to whom he had lent his Temple school free of charge sometimes at the weekend when he wasn't using the facilities. In fact I had just wandered into the temple one day in order to watch how they trained. When he started 'charging up' his students, I received the energy, and when I returned home I found that I spontaneously entered into each of the 5 animals. When I told the Sifu what I had experienced the next day, he said we should see how I reacted when he actually charged me up. He was very surprised when once again I went through all five of the animals almost immediately - apparently this was unheard of, as it normally takes months or even years to get beyond the physical manifestation phase. After that he accepted me as an honorary student, although I did very little training alongside his students, other than assisting in 'charging them up' before they began their Gongfu training. But I disliked the fact that the energy would affect people around me, even involuntarily.

At the time I was involved with Reiki and was working with quite a few sick people. I found that I could not avoid this energy entering them and activating them when they were supposed to be receiving a Reiki treatment. I realized that I was not able to fully close myself down once having opened myself up to the energy, and did not feel in control of it. In the temple I was able to charge up the other students just by being close to them, and I began to have serious doubts about the true source of the energy. So I stopped the practice. I should mention that there is another reason why I do not trust the energy. In 1987 I was a visit to Nam Yang Pugilistic Association in Singapore as part of a visiting team representing the UK in Shaolin forms competition. At one point, towards the end of the visit to Nam Yang a demonstration had been arranged by various other members of the Lion Dance association. One such demonstration involved a young bespectacled youth who we were told had never learned Gongfu. He knelt down and using his thumb began to massage his LDT (by the way is this what you meant by 'external massage'?). We were close enough to see his glasses misting up in the humidity and heat. After a while he began to move, but we could see that his eyes were closed. Following this we were witness to a display of the Five Animals that left all of us shaking. As he entered the state of each of the animals, his movements were accompanied by gutteral sounds which sounded so much like an animal that it sent shivers down our spines, especially when it came to the tiger and bear. I didn't understand at the time why following this, Master Tan Soh Tin grabbed hold of the young novice and severely reprimanded him for the demonstration. But when a few years later I was introduced to what I strongly suspect was the same energy, I realized why that young novice should probably not have demonstrated this Qigong in front of us. When moving through each of the animals the experience is extremely powerful, violent (aside from the deer, which is very gentle) and very frightening for the unprepared observer, especially back in 1987, when such things were unknown here in the western world.

So anyway, it's just possible that this was one of my previous cultivation experiences which may have prepared me for developing the LDT movements such as those I have been describing.

Just to touch on the subject of movements during Zhan Zhuang practice, I was remembering the first few years of my training with Kam Chuen Lam, and I do recall having great difficulty avoiding shaking all over until the Qi had begun to stabilize sufficiently. And I also recall that right at the beginning of our training we were taught to rock back and forth while in the Wuji posture (Wang Xiangzhai's version). This basically had the effect of massaging the Yongquan points of the feet, although Master Lam never fully explained why we should do this. But I could relate to this shifting of energy once I was in the 'holding the tree' posture, when a slight shift forward and backward of the hands either toward the body or away from it would cause one to be pushed forward or backward in the opposite direction to the movement - if that makes sense? No-one taught me to do that, I just used to feel tensions and releases and respond to them energetically. Master Lam said "I know what you're doing!". He didn't seem displeased, so I just continued experimenting.

To get back to the subject of LDT movement, the more it goes, the more I realize that the key seems to be to initiate the movement using the eyes (physically rotating them). Being a physical movement it seems easier than trying to rely on the Yi to initiate the movement of the Qi in the dantiens. For some reason there seems to be an energetic link between the eyes and the LDT (well, actually even more so with the UDT, being so physically close to it). And I agree that the surrounding muscles seem to move along with the circulating Qi, in fact it is almost unavoidable, although with a great deal of concentration I can. In fact watching my own abdomen I am reminded of the way Yogis move the muscles of the lower abdomen. It looks and probably feels similar.

[Sudhamma]

Thank you for responding.

 

Nam Yang Pugilistic Association was the representative of Fukien Shaolin Temple and Abbot Ven. Gao Cang was responsible to bring the Fukien Shaolin martial arts to Singapore in the early 1930s. By 1987, Ven. Gao Cang had passed away, that year I started serious Qigong training, Baqua Roushenggong from the Gong Bao Tien-Wang Han Zi lineage.  Spontaneous Qigong or Zifa-gong is a generic classification and there are many schools/styles that are under it. My sisiong, elder classmate, used to show us his zifagong which was the 5-animals qigong, not the one that was attributed to Watuo, that great Chinese physician of the 3-kingdoms fame. No animal sounds from him. Seems that zifagong has no fixed routines and depends on the physical condition of the trainee. I'm not familiar with zifagong.

 

Abdominal massage in Qigong is normally a standard exercise amongst Daoist systems. What is seldom taught to students is that when both hands are massaging the abdomen in a circular fashion, the internal qi should follow the direction of the hands. That is one technique that qi is led physically. In another technique, there is no massage, but the qi in the abdomen rotates from back to down the front towards the LDT during RAB MCO. The abdomen is pulled inwards, up, forward, and downwards, the qi is rotating on the vertical plane within the abdomen. That is qi leading the abdominal muscles. Both techniques are in the Baqua roushenggong system. You are right about the similarity with yoga when you mentioned about the yogis doing their abdominal rotation.

 

Animal sounds: The Fukien White Crane MA systems require the students to make sounds, in the baquazhang Tiger system of Wang Zhuangfei (father of Wang Hanzi), the student should roar everytime the claw technique is executed. Same with Hung-gar Tiger fists. In our qigong system which requires the student to close his mouth and place his tip of the tougue against the upper palate, no sound can be made! We have to contain the flow of heavenly dew.

[Sudhamma]

Rocking the feet fore and aft during zhanzhuang: there are many versions and styles of zhangzhuang. I practise only the taiji-zhanzhuang without the rocking. Therefore I can't comment whether it is right or not to rock in your system. The old style of forward-backward Swinging hands require the rocking motion to train the leg muscles. In this swing-hands, practitioners normally asked whether it was correct to experience hot sensation at the feet. In my San Pan Gong, the first movement requires gyrating the body together with the feet like a S-like movement. The feet is not firmly on the ground, but move from side-to-toes-to-side-to-heel.

 

Since your teacher said that he knew what you were doing, did you actually know what and why you are rocking?

 

When qi is radiated out without being aware nor controlled, to my knowledge, this is qi-leaking and will affect those standing nearby whose qi is weaker. Those with weaker qi will start to sway.

[DSCB57]

Thank you for responding.

 

Nam Yang Pugilistic Association was the representative of Fukien Shaolin Temple and Abbot Ven. Gao Cang was responsible to bring the Fukien Shaolin martial arts to Singapore in the early 1930s. By 1987, Ven. Gao Cang had passed away, that year I started serious Qigong training, Baqua Roushenggong from the Gong Bao Tien-Wang Han Zi lineage.  Spontaneous Qigong or Zifa-gong is a generic classification and there are many schools/styles that are under it. My sisiong, elder classmate, used to show us his zifagong which was the 5-animals qigong, not the one that was attributed to Watuo, that great Chinese physician of the 3-kingdoms fame. No animal sounds from him. Seems that zifagong has no fixed routines and depends on the physical condition of the trainee. I'm not familiar with zifagong.

 

Abdominal massage in Qigong is normally a standard exercise amongst Daoist systems. What is seldom taught to students is that when both hands are massaging the abdomen in a circular fashion, the internal qi should follow the direction of the hands. That is one technique that qi is led physically. In another technique, there is no massage, but the qi in the abdomen rotates from back to down the front towards the LDT during RAB MCO. The abdomen is pulled inwards, up, forward, and downwards, the qi is rotating on the vertical plane within the abdomen. That is qi leading the abdominal muscles. Both techniques are in the Baqua roushenggong system. You are right about the similarity with yoga when you mentioned about the yogis doing their abdominal rotation.

 

Animal sounds: The Fukien White Crane MA systems require the students to make sounds, in the baquazhang Tiger system of Wang Zhuangfei (father of Wang Hanzi), the student should roar everytime the claw technique is executed. Same with Hung-gar Tiger fists. In our qigong system which requires the student to close his mouth and place his tip of the tougue against the upper palate, no sound can be made! We have to contain the flow of heavenly dew.

Sudhamma, I confess to feeling a little guilty about writing so much whilst unconsciously steering the thread off topic - my apologies to the OP. That was not my intention.

It sounds as though you know NYPA personally, are you in Singapore? When I was still part of the school the art was known as 'Tiger Crane Combination Kung Fu', and we also learned 'Sun and Frost White Crane' (Suann Yang?), which was one of the Shaolin forms I was in Singapore to demonstrate. I did not know then that it was actually Fukien White Crane, although some of the monks called it 'Eng Chun Pei Ho', which in another dialect would be Bai Hung? - my Chinese is very very very limited! So if I read behind the lines, are you saying that the spontaneous 5 animals form may have actually been a secret part of the Fukien White Crane art? Also, only Grand Master Ang Lian Huat was talked about - none of the previous lineage, so thank you for that information. The training in Singapore was far more enjoyable than the way we used to practice in the UK. For one thing far less stretching and warmups were necessary in the high humidity of Singapore, but also we were taught some really neat conditioning exercises (some of which I overdid to the point of my arms and legs being totally covered in bruises). But I was able to develop my tiger claws to a phenomenal extent through the use of some very basic equipment which we did not have back in the UK. But despite the fact that I understand that the forms/patterns are actually Qigong, the only standing we were ever taught was basic horse stance and monkey horse stance and many hours of crane stance. But absolutely no Zhan Zhuang! We were told that Sam Ch'ien was all that was necessary for iron shirt development.

Regarding the Qi following the movement of the hands around the LDT, this is definitely part of the Hunyuan 12 Qigong I mentioned, although I confess that I never understood why there were 36 Yang rotations and only 24 Yin...but I still think that combining that form with RAB was what began the movement of Qi in the LDT. But that is not massage - the hands do not touch the body. The actual Daoyin is integrated with the final part of the form.

I no longer practice any type of MCO. In my opinion the Zhan Zhuang practice when trained correctly naturally opens up the meridians and both the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic orbits open up as well. After my negative experiences with the MCO I wouldn't want to risk practising it incorrectly again.

Just to clarify the 5 animal/element system I described (not the NYPA version) - regarding the animal sounds, the way it was explained to me was through the relation between the 5 organs and the 5 animals, particularly the the Bear, Tiger and Monkey which produced these vocalisations in order to balance the internal organs. But when I experienced it, I also experienced the ferocity of each of the animals. In the case of the bird, it was an eagle, and my body was forced into a position I would not normally have been able to support, with both arms pulled right back behind me and my body bent over forwards with my head pulled up. The other thing that really amazed me was when the bear struck the stone floor, or smashed into the stone walls I felt no pain. And when several of us were in the Tiger phase, there were times when I seriously thought they (we) would attack one another because of the anger that was being released. But the movements eventually began to cause harm to my body because they were so violent, so I lost my trust in the experience and stopped opening myself up to the energy.