Rotating the Lower Dan Tien

[DSCB57]

Rocking the feet fore and aft during zhanzhuang: there are many versions and styles of zhangzhuang. I practise only the taiji-zhanzhuang without the rocking. Therefore I can't comment whether it is right or not to rock in your system. The old style of forward-backward Swinging hands require the rocking motion to train the leg muscles. In this swing-hands, practitioners normally asked whether it was correct to experience hot sensation at the feet. In my San Pan Gong, the first movement requires gyrating the body together with the feet like a S-like movement. The feet is not firmly on the ground, but move from side-to-toes-to-side-to-heel.

 

Since your teacher said that he knew what you were doing, did you actually know what and why you are rocking?

 

When qi is radiated out without being aware nor controlled, to my knowledge, this is qi-leaking and will affect those standing nearby whose qi is weaker. Those with weaker qi will start to sway.

It was a long time ago, and I never really took it very seriously as we only practiced the rocking during the Wuji warmup, but I seem to remember being told that it affected the breathing so that we were learning how to breathe from the heel like the Taoist sages, and warned never to remain with the weight on the Yongquan points, otherwise the Qi would rise up to the head and become blocked. But I did not make myself clear - when Master Lam told me he knew what I was doing, he was talking about my opening and closing using the hands - not the rocking (although this flexing can cause that too)...

So when I was flexing my hands, yes I did understand the energetic effect, and I still practice that sometimes. I would describe it as the feeling of Peng Jin when you feel the pressure right into the hands and fingers - it feels full, during opening, then as you close, the pressure is released and feels empty. I also feel a cool breeze on my face during the opening (moving away from the body). There is also a connection with RAB when practising in that way - the Peng Jin opening coincides with the outbreath as the LDT pushes forwards. This is probably why this is also intrinsic to Fa Jin and trial of breath (in Yiquan, even though any RAB is involuntary).

Edited March 21, 2017 by DSCB57

[Sudhamma]

Allow me to share my thoughts on the opening and closing of hands (during your zhanzhuang): When opening the hands, breathe in, and closing, breathing out. When hands are opening, stretch the energy between the palms, when closing, compress the energy. Do not allow the energy to dissipate into the environment during closing of the palms.

 

Your training of Tiger and Crane Combination is Hung-gar in essence, as the founder GM Lam Sai Wing, nick-named Butcher Wing, was a student of the famed Wong Fei Hung. As to Eng Chun Pei Ho, I believe the Fujian pronunciation should something like, Eng Chun Pek Hok. Pek Hok in Mandarin is B'ai H'er. Eng Chun is a district in Fujian. Sam Chien is San Jeen in Japanese karate, and is used to tone the body, the ‘iron body’ that you said. This Sam Chien is a Nei-gong practice. In my early days, I thought nei-gong was later known as qigong in China as the government thought that the term nei-gong had superstitions bought forth by those wuxia stories. I hope ‘bums’ here can tell me that indeed, nei-gong is not qigong though there are over-lapping principles. That name Master Ang could be from the Dragon and Tiger Association, and was in the lime-light when he took the blow from Mohd Ali to his throat. The DTA teaches Wu Mei martial arts. Wu Mei was the teacher to Yim Wing Chun, the founder of the famous Wing Chun system.

 

I did not know about Fukien White Crane has that 'spontaneous' 5-animal set. My knowledge is still rudimentary.

Zhanzhuang is a term used by those in neijia practitioners. For martial artists, the traditional term is zhang mabu for the horse stance by Northern stylists, and by Southern stylists, the Hokein would call it J-bay, Cantonese, gart-ma.

 

If you want to train RAB till it is second nature, then train every minute of the day and when you are calm and peaceful, RAB will be involuntary. Try it.

[DSCB57]

Allow me to share my thoughts on the opening and closing of hands (during your zhanzhuang): When opening the hands, breathe in, and closing, breathing out. When hands are opening, stretch the energy between the palms, when closing, compress the energy. Do not allow the energy to dissipate into the environment during closing of the palms.

 

 

Thank you Sudhamma, what you are describing isn't the same thing. When I practise that I normally condense the Qi then put it back into the LDT. What I am talking about is actually in the tendons, and does not involve actually moving very much at all. It is all about feeling it. I think the exercise you are referring to is the one Feng Zhiang said he wished he had been able to practise this exercise much more than he had been able to. But that is an expansive movement out to the sides. What I practise does not change the Zhan Zhuang posture. The hands remain in the same position facing the shoulders and chest. But with the opening they become full, and closing empty. This can also cause the weight to shift forward and back. It is similar to using the lifting of the foot to uproot an opponent in Taijiquan. In other words it has more to do with intention than actual physical movement. That said, the tendons of my hand do stretch considerably during this pratice. In fact it's really quite subtle. Master Lam knew what I was doing because he could see the Qi and the energetic anatomy. It was fascinating to watch how he played with the Qi of his students.

 

Your training of Tiger and Crane Combination is Hung-gar in essence, as the founder GM Lam Sai Wing, nick-named Butcher Wing, was a student of the famed Wong Fei Hung. As to Eng Chun Pei Ho, I believe the Fujian pronunciation should something like, Eng Chun Pek Hok. Pek Hok in Mandarin is B'ai H'er. Eng Chun is a district in Fujian. Sam Chien is San Jeen in Japanese karate, and is used to tone the body, the ‘iron body’ that you said. This Sam Chien is a Nei-gong practice.

 

 

Thank you, I was never told that. But I must say that I always suspected that the crane stance we had to hold (like the first Karate Kid) during the first few year of training must have been some form of Neigong. But all that means is internal training rather than Waigong external training. But most of the Fukien White Crane was very external the way we practised it. But the NYPA guys in Singapore were far more internal and soft in their practise. I learnt a lot from them, but eventually decided I was more drawn to Taijiquan, which is why I left and went over to Yiquan/Dachenquan.

 

In my early days, I thought nei-gong was later known as qigong in China as the government thought that the term nei-gong had superstitions bought forth by those wuxia stories. I hope ‘bums’ here can tell me that indeed, nei-gong is not qigong though there are over-lapping principles.

 

 

Qigong is a very generic term, probably an expression coined for western consumption. It really isn't correct, and I certainly don't think that the distinctions made by many between Neigong and Qigong here are correct. Zhan Zhuang is classed as Qigong, but is also the basis for Neigong in many systems. In fact the postures could be exactly alike, but according to what is going on energetically could be either Waigong or Neigong. The Hunyuan system also uses Zhan Zhuang postures, and is described as Qigong. But in fact it is Neigong.

 

That name Master Ang could be from the Dragon and Tiger Association, and was in the lime-light when he took the blow from Mohd Ali to his throat.

 

Well it didn't work for me . My Sifu had to rescue me using Yunnan Baiyao to stop the bleeding in my throat after taking an opponent down who chopped my throat as he fell. So much for Iron Shirt! That put an end to my full contact days.

 

The DTA teaches Wu Mei martial arts. Wu Mei was the teacher to Yim Wing Chun, the founder of the famous Wing Chun system.

 

 

There are many similarities between Fukien White Crane and Wing Chun. There are those who claim that they are closely related, and I can believe it. But the fact that Qigong is such an integral part of Wing Chun makes me really curious as to why Bruce Lee had such a negative view toward Qi. That said, there are rumours that he learned Yiquan, so maybe he really did believe in Qi?

 

I did not know about Fukien White Crane has that 'spontaneous' 5-animal set. My knowledge is still rudimentary.

 

 

No, that was just a theory of mine, because of Master Tan's reaction to that boy's demonstration. But you never know...But you do know about Suanng Yang - Sun and Frost White Crane?

 

Zhanzhuang is a term used by those in neijia practitioners. For martial artists, the traditional term is zhang mabu for the horse stance by Northern stylists, and by Southern stylists, the Hokein would call it J-bay, Cantonese, gart-ma.

 

 

Mabu, mocabu etc., is also used in Yiquan, especially the Beijing schools. But we hardly ever used any Chinese terminology for whatever reason. Probably because Master Lam was a student of the late Professor Yu Yong Nian.

 

If you want to train RAB till it is second nature, then train every minute of the day and when you are calm and peaceful, RAB will be involuntary. Try it.

 

 

I just allow RAB to happen naturally. If you are going to strike someone it is automatic, or if you need to make a great effort. I spent a considerable time only breathing that way, but it is not what Wang Xiangzhai taught. Any kind of control over the breath tends to create tension. The exception for me at the moment is when training with the Taiji ball. I tend to practise that only with RAB, because that is the way Yang Jwing Ming teaches it, and my intention is to strengthen my constitution, especially my lower back.

 

In any case at the moment I am mainly focused on practising the Flying Phoenix Qigong system. I am finding it very healing and easy to learn (just the first 2 levels). But I normally start of with my rotation exercise, working from the head down through the body as a warm up. The eye rotation puts me into a meditative state, perfect for the FPQ meditations.

Edited March 23, 2017 by DSCB57

[Sudhamma]

I've not learnt any White Crane, Tibetan or Fukien, least of all 'Sun and Frost' White Crane. If FPQ is giving you the results, then do stay with it. There are more than 2000 types of qigong and each one tested for their efficacies. The difference between each type is the quality of instruction and the depth of knowledge on the one hand, and the aptitude and seriousness of the student. Sometimes, the student can surpass the teacher in terms of knowledge and development. I always have the Kalama Sutta in mind.

[DSCB57]

I've not learnt any White Crane, Tibetan or Fukien, least of all 'Sun and Frost' White Crane. If FPQ is giving you the results, then do stay with it. There are more than 2000 types of qigong and each one tested for their efficacies. The difference between each type is the quality of instruction and the depth of knowledge on the one hand, and the aptitude and seriousness of the student. Sometimes, the student can surpass the teacher in terms of knowledge and development. I always have the Kalama Sutta in mind.

Just in case it may be of interest to you, here is a Youtube video of the Shuang Yang Pei Ho Shaolin form I mentioned, first performed and explained by GM Tan Soh Tin:

https://youtu.be/xzUUkov1XE0

The next is an earlier video of GM Tan Soh Tin:

https://youtu.be/chZO1T0gtBI The video itself is not so interesting, but the narrative is very informative about the art.

The third video is Sifu Iain Armstrong, who was an assistant instructor and part of the same team I went to Singapore with in 1987:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUUrYwdkGvw

You will see that the video comes from NYPA...

[Brian]

FWIW, the origin of the term "qigong" is in the mid-20th century and comes from Hu Yaozhen and the efforts of the Chinese government to document the people's knowledge. I am aware of this because Master Hu is part of my lineage. Information about Master Hu has come up in several threads here over the years and should be easy to find with a search.

[DSCB57]

FWIW, the origin of the term "qigong" is in the mid-20th century and comes from Hu Yaozhen and the efforts of the Chinese government to document the people's knowledge. I am aware of this because Master Hu is part of my lineage. Information about Master Hu has come up in several threads here over the years and should be easy to find with a search.

 

Would you mind elaborating Brian? Which lineage? I have had contact with one of his daughters who runs a TCM clinic in Barcelona.Her name is Dr Hu Yuezhen. In fact she practises a form of spontaneous Qigong. I have watched a couple of her demonstrations, and she definitely knows more than she lets on, or is prepared to teach. I read a documentary article on the Doctor in which she explained that Hu Yaozhen her father had deliberately avoided teaching either of his daughters anything which might have caused them problems with the Chinese Communist government - he knew that it could put all of them in danger. So apparently he did not teach them anything remotely martial, only basic Qigong and TCM related practices. But nevertheless they would have been exposed to years of watching their father train and spar with the best fighters of the time. I am very interested in the relationship between GM Hu Yaozhen and GM Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan/Dachengquan). Between them they were responsible for the introduction of Zhan Zhuang Qigong treatment into hospitals and clinics, and they revolutionised the system. Both of them were highly renowned for their martial prowess and had a great deal of respect for one another apparently. I think they also had similar skill sets, which they probably exchanged between them. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by DSCB57

[DSCB57]

Request to the moderators: could you please move these posts somewhere where they will not clutter up the OP's thread, and where they could better contribute to the pool of information and benefit all those interested in these topics?

[Brian]

Would you mind elaborating Brian? Which lineage? I have had contact with one of his daughters who runs a TCM clinic in Barcelona.Her name is Dr Hu Yuezhen. In fact she practises a form of spontaneous Qigong. I have watched a couple of her demonstrations, and she definitely knows more than she lets on, or is prepared to teach. I read a documentary article on the Doctor in which she explained that Hu Yaozhen her father had deliberately avoided teaching either of his daughters anything which might have caused them problems with the Chinese Communist government - he knew that it could put all of them in danger. So apparently he did not teach them anything remotely martial, only basic Qigong and TCM related practices. But nevertheless they would have been exposed to years of watching their father train and spar with the best fighters of the time. I am very interested in the relationship between GM Hu Yaozhen and GM Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan/Dachengquan). Between them they were responsible for the introduction of Zhan Zhuang Qigong treatment into hospitals and clinics, and they revolutionised the system. Both of them were highly renowned for their martial prowess and had a great deal of respect for one another apparently. I think they also had similar skill sets, which they probably exchanged between them.

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43162-are-there-any-good-qigong-books-for-beginners/page-2#entry733184

[Brian]

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43162-are-there-any-good-qigong-books-for-beginners/page-2#entry733184

And...

 

http://hunyuaninstitute.com/huandhunyuan.pdf

[Sudhamma]

Dear DSCB57, 

After viewing the videos, I've second thoughts about what I wrote about the Tiger and Crane Combination Fist. Though within the Southern Shaolin  Hung-gar lineage(s), there are a few versions of this set, it was GM Lam Sai Weng who started an off-shoot from his Wong Fei Hung lineage, and called it "Tiger and Crane Double-Form P'ai". I've here a link of a master demonstrating the set (from the Wong Fei Hung lineage). He was already advanced in years and lack the vitality to really show the stamina, strength and ferocity of the movements. If what was taught to you looked similar, then the set was Hung-gar's not Eng Choon Pek Hok's. Versions of the set from other Hung-gar lineages are shorter.

 

For thread #78: Tiger and Crane Combination Fist:

[DSCB57]

Dear DSCB57, 

After viewing the videos, I've second thoughts about what I wrote about the Tiger and Crane Combination Fist. Though within the Southern Shaolin  Hung-gar lineage(s), there are a few versions of this set, it was GM Lam Sai Weng who started an off-shoot from his Wong Fei Hung lineage, and called it "Tiger and Crane Double-Form P'ai". I've here a link of a master demonstrating the set (from the Wong Fei Hung lineage). He was already advanced in years and lack the vitality to really show the stamina, strength and ferocity of the movements. If what was taught to you looked similar, then the set was Hung-gar's not Eng Choon Pek Hok's. Versions of the set from other Hung-gar lineages are shorter.

 

For thread #78: Tiger and Crane Combination Fist:

No, we did not learn Hung Gar, it was definitely Eng Chun Pei Ho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iklKt5mnwkE this is the Sam Chien form demonstrating Iron Shirt

https://www.youtube.com/user/namyang1954/videos All these videos demonstrate the different forms taught at NYPA in Singapore. As you can see, lion dance is a very important part of the training, and indeed NYPA supports itself with Lion Dancing. NYPA also features the black fighting lion. 

I would say that perhaps this form best typifies this style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4IC52VjMTs

[DSCB57]

Dear DSCB57, 

After viewing the videos, I've second thoughts about what I wrote about the Tiger and Crane Combination Fist. Though within the Southern Shaolin  Hung-gar lineage(s), there are a few versions of this set, it was GM Lam Sai Weng who started an off-shoot from his Wong Fei Hung lineage, and called it "Tiger and Crane Double-Form P'ai". I've here a link of a master demonstrating the set (from the Wong Fei Hung lineage). He was already advanced in years and lack the vitality to really show the stamina, strength and ferocity of the movements. If what was taught to you looked similar, then the set was Hung-gar's not Eng Choon Pek Hok's. Versions of the set from other Hung-gar lineages are shorter.

 

For thread #78: Tiger and Crane Combination Fist:

No, we did not learn Hung Gar, it was definitely Eng Chun Pei Ho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iklKt5mnwkE this is the Sam Chien form demonstrating Iron Shirt

https://www.youtube.com/user/namyang1954/videos All these videos demonstrate the different forms taught at NYPA in Singapore. As you can see, lion dance is a very important part of the training, and indeed NYPA supports itself with Lion Dancing. NYPA also features the black fighting lion. 

I would say that perhaps this form best typifies this style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4IC52VjMTs

[allinone]

delite

Edited March 31, 2017 by allinone