Rotating the Lower Dan Tien

[dawei]

Specifically, the advice I'm looking for is as follows -

 

1. How best to control your breathing to spin my LDT vertically forward, ie down at front/up at the back? I've seen that reverse abdominal breathing is seen as the most effective way but opinions vary.. Am now trying this - breathing strongly into my upper abdomen whilst holding lower abs with light tension and by raising my coccyx on inhalation only. This seems to pump up the pit of my belly but feels very unnatural. Does seem to do something however - get a lot of tension/pressure along mid spine/upper back. Am aiming to do one full rotation per in/out breath, for rapid improvement.

 

I have wondered myself about why reverse abdominal breathing (RAB) seems to have a strong following among certain practices. If your raising your coccyx on inhalation, your doing RAB.

 

In my experience, I suspect it is because inhaling (and locking) is easier to generate power/pressure/force than exhaling (and locking) as is done in normal abdominal breathing (NAB). And one needs to recognize that Qi will quickly flow from high pressure to low pressure; many exercises/forms will show this. But one should also realize that the mind is another motive force.

 

Your inhaling and locking and filling the stomach to rotate the LDT. I would like to hear someone with experience in this method as it is essentially both a RAB (inhale/lock/compress) and a NAB (inhale/fill stomach) at the same time... As an example, if one were doing the MCO, on inhale/lock you generate the pressure at the base so that going up the spine (ergo, out of the LDT) occurs.

 

I am trying your method now but the combination of inhale/lock/compress/fill stomach does not feel right. It may be a valid technique which one has to acquire...

 

But I start the turning of the LDT on inhale/unlock/expand/fill stomach. The perineum expands with the stomach; so it is a 3-D expansion in all directions. Breathing down the conception vessel into the LDT, slow and long breath and turn and turn and turn... and on exhale/lock/compress let the spin continue but with less force (or I should say the force of locking and compressing will naturally turn it so you do not have to depend as much on inhale/breath/mind.

 

Have you ever used your hands to create a Qi ball? Where you compress the space, move along the spherical part and you can feel the pressure/force of the 'ball' ? If your doing that right, then your hands will keep the circumference throughout, otherwise your hands are wandering a bit in terms of the surface; meaning you have not fixed the surface. (I've seen people post examples of rotating with their hands but the simple test is to see if they have the circumference fixed or not). The same can be said for rotating the LDT. Compress it occasionally (press inward on the LDT) to know you feel the surface and circumference... JMO.

 

Before rotating, I would get that LDT feeling/connection and 'ok'...

 

2. How best to open my Thrusting Meridian, perhaps using the basic back exercises/focus on Jing, whatever? Have tried Damo's version of focusing on coccyx, letting the heat generate and then waiting for the vibration to start up my spine however its not really working for me.

 

Be really, really grateful for any real world advice, based on forced, physical techniques (however difficult) that others have found to work! Happy to do Tai Chi movements, however would rather have the specific move, rather than a long combination or sequence, as practice alone.

 

Please, no philosophical or 'let nature take its course' answers, no interest in esoteric or coded language. No need to be safe, I'm a grown up and looking for short cuts/speed ups and therefore happy to take my chances. Had many surreal experiences over the years and don't scare easy.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I learned a lot by taking chances... won't share any stories here but I know where you are coming from... just in a word: BE CAREFUL. When it doesn't feel right, stop and figure it out, some way... like chatting here

 

You mention Thrusting Vessel and talk of going up the spine... we need to be clear about what you are doing here. This vessel runs interior although it connects to the spine its flow is more along the path of the Tai Ji Pole (happy to be corrected by others experienced in this).

 

The Governing vessel runs along the spine.

 

There are variations on the MCO where you circulate the energy in an orbit as: (quick summary, not any detail)

1. up the spine (fire path) or

2. down the spine (wind path) or

3. up but more interior to the Thrusting vessel (water path).

 

(again, happy to be corrected by those with experience).

 

So, do you want to do some sort of circulation like the MCO or are you trying to only do a thrusting vessel practice (exchange of Yin-Yang, between crown and perineum) ?

[dawei]

By definition any 'effort' to cultivate is a forced technique is it not, from the wonderfully gentle rapid enlightenment school of Soto Zen on up?

 

Yes... Bao Pu Zi said practice is unnatural... It is nice to see it stated so succinctly and honestly...

[Chainer]

I have wondered myself about why reverse abdominal breathing (RAB) seems to have a strong following among certain practices. If your raising your coccyx on inhalation, your doing RAB.

.......

 

 

Many, thanks for your comments - made me practice the 2 in sequence and think about the actual process and results of both. Going to focus on breathing in this response, will do a 2^nd post on the Thrusting meridian point.

 

First, my NAB is basically Damo's 2nd stage 'Sung' breathing, learnt slowly with a lot of focus before I could let it go by itself - this is how I detected my LDT moving/twitching just after the max inhalation hold/pause. Feels like trying to spin a tennis ball forward by brushing straight across the top of ball with flat of your hand, as my stomach collapses back.

 

My NAB Process

- Hold upper chest deflated and rock still through out,

- Breathing in through nose so I can feel the breath above my top lip, by pushing lungs straight down ONLY

- Let belly push forward and out unrestricted, pressure travels down front of abs as they expand while lungs moving down.

- Holding briefly on max inhalation, feeling the pressure at the very bottom of the pit of my stomach now (but NO root lock)

- Release pressure letting belly collapse back in flat lifting pressure from pit of stomach

- When abs are back flat keeping going beyond and lift belly up into chest by pulling lungs up as far up as possible.

- Exhalation ends with slight pressure at top of abs from pulling lungs up, lower abs flat.

 

I don’t use a root lock/ab tension on exhalation in NAB at all, its pressure release only. Also don’t use intention to lead my Qi at the moment. My understanding at that time was that you are pulling up/down earth Qi as much as pulling down/up heaven Qi, (strong benefits you legs and lower body connection) and therefore you don’t try and constrict any movement in or out, a basic ‘longevity’ practice designed to build a strong foundation. Opening your Yongquan and pulling up Earth Qi is a major factor. When I practiced to the point that I could release my focus (and speed this up slightly), noticed an interesting thing – the motion over your stomach wall is a circular rotation of your abs when viewed from side. Seems to me its this circular rotation which is meant to catch/encourage your LDT to follow it. Very slow progress however… perhaps because I’ve never used a pressure lock... To be honest I've always associated root lock with libido management.

New RAB Process – all as before except –

- Raise my coccyx on inhalation, keeping tension in my lower abs that stops them moving forward whilst pushing lungs down.

- Upper abs expand out only now, abs take on a mushroom shaped effect when seen from side

- Generates much tighter pressure on max hold/pause, seems to also pressurise my lower spine.

- Release coccyx on exhalation causing a collapse downwards, then back and then upwards, the old circle movement as before, if smaller.

 

Has to be said that using a root lock on inhalation generates WAY more pressure than before. Can be strongly argued that this is a better technique for generating pressure slightly higher in your belly (in my terms at least), which may in itself encourage LDT rotation forward and down the front more effectively on pressure release. Overall, RAB clearly breaks down ab breathing in 2 distinct phases – pressure build up and then ab rotation on release, seemingly making them both more effective. However is seems to be focused on your waist/upper body meridians, so is a partial technique (Zen criticism).

 

Interestingly – after focusing on this for last hour have noticed the following –

1. Have a strong desire to twist my torso, literally just found myself swinging from side to side there! Hit the books and see that swaying motion is connected to Qi flowing in your girdling meridian strongly (a small water wheel of Qi), which is great!
2. Have a desire to rock forward on inhalation - like a stomach crunch, to drive pressure build up and also flex upper back slightly (where most the pressure seems to be around Shendao)
3. Am experiencing a mild heating of the coccyx, perhaps linked to the intention necessary to practice this unnatural technique.

To conclude – clearly my previous NAB practice was VERY natural and low/no risk, hence it was proving very slow. The new RAB practice incorporates several speed ups that I’m already seeing results with, really hitting the first 2 key small water wheels of Qi - I'd say if 5x more effective.

 

Be really kind to get your thoughts on above.

 

Will work on Thrusting meridian post now, bit more back story involved in terms of my practices and experiences, given your answer.

 

Thanks again.

[dawei]

My NAB Process

- Hold upper chest deflated and rock still through out,

- Breathing in through nose so I can feel the breath above my top lip, by pushing lungs straight down ONLY

- Let belly push forward and out unrestricted, pressure travels down front of abs as they expand while lungs moving down.

- Holding briefly on max inhalation, feeling the pressure at the very bottom of the pit of my stomach now (but NO root lock)

- Release pressure letting belly collapse back in flat lifting pressure from pit of stomach

- When abs are back flat keeping going beyond and lift belly up into chest by pulling lungs up as far up as possible.

- Exhalation ends with slight pressure at top of abs from pulling lungs up, lower abs flat.

 

I don’t use a root lock/ab tension on exhalation in NAB at all, its pressure release only. Also don’t use intention to lead my Qi at the moment. My understanding at that time was that you are pulling up/down earth Qi as much as pulling down/up heaven Qi, (strong benefits you legs and lower body connection) and therefore you don’t try and constrict any movement in or out, a basic ‘longevity’ practice designed to build a strong foundation. Opening your Yongquan and pulling up Earth Qi is a major factor. When I practiced to the point that I could release my focus (and speed this up slightly), noticed an interesting thing – the motion over your stomach wall is a circular rotation of your abs when viewed from side. Seems to me its this circular rotation which is meant to catch/encourage your LDT to follow it. Very slow progress however… perhaps because I’ve never used a pressure lock... To be honest I've always associated root lock with libido management.

 

I think there are a few reasons to do the lock; foremost to reduce any Qi leakage. Also, when one locks on exhale/compression, that is the equivalent pressure of the RAB (but here it happens on exhale). So you want to have that pressure differential (high vs low).

 

I know some will lock on both inhale and exhale and claim it is useful. I don't do that for two reasons: One is the stress it puts on the Perineum. It should be treated (IMO) as an extension of the stomach area which moves. Second, getting it to move in sync with the stomach and breathing will generate a warm feeling (or Qi sensation) there and it is the critical junction point where the conception and government vessels meet. I would encourage you to try it just to see any effect.

 

I will warn this: Thinking your moving that very area (Hui Yin) does not mean it is actually moving. You'll want to get a hand down at the spot and see if it is truly expanding and collapsing or not.

 

New RAB Process – all as before except –

- Raise my coccyx on inhalation, keeping tension in my lower abs that stops them moving forward whilst pushing lungs down.

- Upper abs expand out only now, abs take on a mushroom shaped effect when seen from side

- Generates much tighter pressure on max hold/pause, seems to also pressurise my lower spine.

- Release coccyx on exhalation causing a collapse downwards, then back and then upwards, the old circle movement as before, if smaller.

 

Has to be said that using a root lock on inhalation generates WAY more pressure than before. Can be strongly argued that this is a better technique for generating pressure slightly higher in your belly (in my terms at least), which may in itself encourage LDT rotation forward and down the front more effectively on pressure release. Overall, RAB clearly breaks down ab breathing in 2 distinct phases – pressure build up and then ab rotation on release, seemingly making them both more effective. However is seems to be focused on your waist/upper body meridians, so is a partial technique (Zen criticism).

 

Yes and I think this is what the source of your below observations

 

Interestingly – after focusing on this for last hour have noticed the following –

1. Have a strong desire to twist my torso, literally just found myself swinging from side to side there! Hit the books and see that swaying motion is connected to Qi flowing in your girdling meridian strongly (a small water wheel of Qi), which is great!
2. Have a desire to rock forward on inhalation - like a stomach crunch, to drive pressure build up and also flex upper back slightly (where most the pressure seems to be around Shendao)
3. Am experiencing a mild heating of the coccyx, perhaps linked to the intention necessary to practice this unnatural technique.

To conclude – clearly my previous NAB practice was VERY natural and low/no risk, hence it was proving very slow. The new RAB practice incorporates several speed ups that I’m already seeing results with, really hitting the first 2 key small water wheels of Qi - I'd say if 5x more effective.

 

I would guess that this is a good indication that the main vessels are full and flowing and thus overflowing into meridians and vessels.

Edited October 25, 2013 by dawei

[dwai]

Mater liao explains the dan tian rotation process thus in his book "The T'ai Ch'i Classics". I'm not quoting it verbatim but my understanding/in my words --

 

"As the in breath (during normal breathing) goes and strikes the navel region and with relaxed attention to that region, the sensation of an expansion will begin to develop in that region. With more relaxed practice, this sensation will become more pronounced. After a while, when this expansion starts to happen, gently contract the perineum and lower abdomen. This will cause a turning of the expanding vortex of energy (lower dan tian). The slight contraction (very gentle) of the perineum and the lower abdominal muscles will spin the dan tian in a clockwise manner (so it rotates towards the tailbone and then up the spine).

 

With further relaxed practice of this (over a period of time), the dan tian will start spinning on its own."

 

One could acquire a copy of his book and read more about this and other fine details of chi work. It is very effective, lucid.

 

PS Following up, if some one was interesting in trying this out, they might want to try two ways:

 

1) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and exhale relax

2) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and hold that through the entire cycle (that you want to try this for -- how many ever breaths)

Edited October 25, 2013 by dwai

[Chainer]

I know some will lock on both inhale and exhale and claim it is useful. I don't do that for two reasons: One is the stress it puts on the Perineum. It should be treated (IMO) as an extension of the stomach area which moves. Second, getting it to move in sync with the stomach and breathing will generate a warm feeling (or Qi sensation) there and it is the critical junction point where the conception and government vessels meet. I would encourage you to try it just to see any effect.

 

I will warn this: Thinking your moving that very area (Hui Yin) does not mean it is actually moving. You'll want to get a hand down at the spot and see if it is truly expanding and collapsing or not.

 

Thanks for coming back to me.

 

Have just tried the root lock on both inhale and exhale and got a 'full' locking effect for LDT, along with some heat up at Hui yin (coccyx) - ie no sensation of LDT moving or twitching, like the lock on both sides of the breath was holding it fast from moving at all. Perhaps I'm doing it too hard however, as was conscious of really getting my Coccyx to move as much as possible and then hold constantly, as per your other comment.

 

Locking on one or the other causes movement feedback, however I have to say at this point locking on inhale is the stronger of the 2, particularly when you holding tension in your lower abs - as if you pressing your LDT and coccyx closer together.

 

Agree there is a lot to be said for moving it in sync with the stomach pressure - the circular bow way AND locking, then release. this seems to act as a guide for LDT rotating forward. No satisfied that this is as efficient as it might be however so will experiment further.

 

Lastly have read recently that strong Qi flow in the girdling meridian is the key to 'unattended' LDT forward rotation - acts as a positive feedback loop, the more LDT rotates, more Qi flows in meridian, which in turn pushes the LDT to rotate further. Have you heard of this?

[Chainer]

Mater liao explains the dan tian rotation process thus in his book "The T'ai Ch'i Classics". I'm not quoting it verbatim but my understanding/in my words --

 

"As the in breath (during normal breathing) goes and strikes the navel region and with relaxed attention to that region, the sensation of an expansion will begin to develop in that region. With more relaxed practice, this sensation will become more pronounced. After a while, when this expansion starts to happen, gently contract the perineum and lower abdomen. This will cause a turning of the expanding vortex of energy (lower dan tian). The slight contraction (very gentle) of the perineum and the lower abdominal muscles will spin the dan tian in a clockwise manner (so it rotates towards the tailbone and then up the spine).

 

With further relaxed practice of this (over a period of time), the dan tian will start spinning on its own."

 

One could acquire a copy of his book and read more about this and other fine details of chi work. It is very effective, lucid.

 

PS Following up, if some one was interesting in trying this out, they might want to try two ways:

 

1) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and exhale relax

2) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and hold that through the entire cycle (that you want to try this for -- how many ever breaths)

 

Many thanks - very interesting indeed, thats the RAB technique exactly we are talking about here.

 

Thinking about this - makes me suspect that the coccyx acts like a 'latch' that drags the LDT round a 'notch' on contracting, and that holding tension in lower abs presses the 2 together for better connection!

 

This also adds wait to something I've wonder about for a while - the shape of the ancient 'Swastika', and related symbols, meant to in some way represent the LDT. Specifically these seems have 'teeth' on the outside and I can't help but wonder what is meant to engage these 'teeth', that in some ways then turns the LDT like any other cog.

 

Does the coccyx act like a 'latch' on these 'teeth', pulling around one at a time on every contraction... particularly when the 2 are pressed together by the lower abs.

 

If this is true, then raising and relaxing the coccyx 'multiple' times (pulsing it) during inhalation would be the most effective technique of all, which must be worth a try, so I will. Will also try the pulsing method throughout the whole cycle, whilst keeping lower abs tense through whole cycle, as suspect this will push past the full lock of the LDT problem, I detailed in previous post. .

 

Thanks again.

[SonOfTheGods]

I've performed the rotation by locking into a visual.

 

"walking the dog" yo-yo play.

 

It's red too, white string down the back

 

Praise the gods for Duncan.

 

dan tien does it naturally now

[dawei]

Have just tried the root lock on both inhale and exhale and got a 'full' locking effect for LDT, along with some heat up at Hui yin (coccyx) - ie no sensation of LDT moving or twitching, like the lock on both sides of the breath was holding it fast from moving at all. Perhaps I'm doing it too hard however, as was conscious of really getting my Coccyx to move as much as possible and then hold constantly, as per your other comment.

 

Locking on one or the other causes movement feedback, however I have to say at this point locking on inhale is the stronger of the 2, particularly when you holding tension in your lower abs - as if you pressing your LDT and coccyx closer together.

 

I think if you are doing RAB, locking has a stronger effect than NAB locking on exhale. In the former case, the pressure balance is much, much stronger. There is an impetus to it. On NAB, the lock on exhale is more conservation and path.

 

Your movement feedback is key.... your really in tune with your movement of breathing, Qi, circulation, body, etc. Sensing the body (and I mean energetic side too, in this) is an important pass.

 

Agree there is a lot to be said for moving it in sync with the stomach pressure - the circular bow way AND locking, then release. this seems to act as a guide for LDT rotating forward. No satisfied that this is as efficient as it might be however so will experiment further.

 

In fact, that is all I mean... experimenting is good... at times dangerous but you must sense the movement feedback as a tell-tale sign of what you do (or don't do). In the absence of a teacher/master, we are often simply wanting to get to some higher understanding and way. You will figure this out with some more experimenting and practice.

 

Lastly have read recently that strong Qi flow in the girdling meridian is the key to 'unattended' LDT forward rotation - acts as a positive feedback loop, the more LDT rotates, more Qi flows in meridian, which in turn pushes the LDT to rotate further. Have you heard of this?

 

I know this as the belt vessel... you made me look up girdling merdian...

 

I cannot speak from any experience towards a positive feedback loop you mention... but I am going to spit-ball here.

 

I focus on my belt vessel for one primary reason: I have a bone displaced in my lower back (due to sports in past) and the only solution (ie: fix) is nuts and bolts in my body... I refuse that solution as long as I can walk ! LOL

 

A secondary reason comes from my learning Tai Chi. My taiwan master emphasized this so much as the source of all movements. So the LDT may be a 'lower brain' but that area may also be the source of all of our movement. It makes sense in many ways, which there is not time here to say.

 

So, I think you are right to look at the girdling/belt as to its contribution of energy direction and pressure in rotating the LDT.

 

I would like to hear more of your experience in regards to this.

Edited October 25, 2013 by dawei

[dwai]

Many thanks - very interesting indeed, thats the RAB technique exactly we are talking about here.

 

Thinking about this - makes me suspect that the coccyx acts like a 'latch' that drags the LDT round a 'notch' on contracting, and that holding tension in lower abs presses the 2 together for better connection!

 

This also adds wait to something I've wonder about for a while - the shape of the ancient 'Swastika', and related symbols, meant to in some way represent the LDT. Specifically these seems have 'teeth' on the outside and I can't help but wonder what is meant to engage these 'teeth', that in some ways then turns the LDT like any other cog.

 

Does the coccyx act like a 'latch' on these 'teeth', pulling around one at a time on every contraction... particularly when the 2 are pressed together by the lower abs.

 

If this is true, then raising and relaxing the coccyx 'multiple' times (pulsing it) during inhalation would be the most effective technique of all, which must be worth a try, so I will. Will also try the pulsing method throughout the whole cycle, whilst keeping lower abs tense through whole cycle, as suspect this will push past the full lock of the LDT problem, I detailed in previous post. .

 

Thanks again.

I don't understand too much theory. If you do what he says, the dan tian will rotate

I think if we try and make analogies (for ourselves) with physical things, etc we will get too caught up in the words and risk missing the actual experiences.

 

Instead of cogs, gears, wheels etc why not just simply experience it, let the dan tian expand, apply gentle contraction and let it spin (and after a while it will do it on it's own, without having to think about it at all)

 

To repeat a part of a cliche, here's what I'm trying to say -

 

Supposing we never saw snow before in our lives. And made up analogies about how snow is like fluffy cotton, it is cold like ice etc. But once we saw snow, we actually held it in our hands, felt it on our skin, if we didn't let go of the analogies, then we risk missing out the fact that snow is snow (and instead constantly play the various properties it tends to display - that analogies indicate). I'm saying once you get the dan tian, once it spins (without descriptions, examples, visualization), just from pure sensation and feeling, there will be no need for analogies.

Edited October 25, 2013 by dwai

[Taomeow]

Yup. And my favorite metaphor for "the whole is not the sum total of its parts" is ice cream. Despite the name containing both words, it's neither ice nor cream, neither ice with cream nor cream of ice, neither iced cream nor creamy ice, neither icy cream nor creamed ice, neither cream made of ice nor ice made of cream. One lick and you know what it is though.

[dawei]

Yup. And my favorite metaphor for "the whole is not the sum total of its parts" is ice cream. Despite the name containing both words, it's neither ice nor cream, neither ice with cream nor cream of ice, neither iced cream nor creamy ice, neither icy cream nor creamed ice, neither cream made of ice nor ice made of cream. One lick and you know what it is though.

 

funny you should say that... I was caught last night explaining why there is no 'ice' in ice cream... Just have a lick !

[Taomeow]

_/\_ Ganying strikes again!

[Chainer]

I think if you are doing RAB, locking has a stronger effect than NAB locking on exhale. In the former case, the pressure balance is much, much stronger. There is an impetus to it. On NAB, the lock on exhale is more conservation and path.

 

Your movement feedback is key.... your really in tune with your movement of breathing, Qi, circulation, body, etc. Sensing the body (and I mean energetic side too, in this) is an important pass.

 

 

In fact, that is all I mean... experimenting is good... at times dangerous but you must sense the movement feedback as a tell-tale sign of what you do (or don't do). In the absence of a teacher/master, we are often simply wanting to get to some higher understanding and way. You will figure this out with some more experimenting and practice.

 

 

I know this as the belt vessel... you made me look up girdling merdian...

 

I cannot speak from any experience towards a positive feedback loop you mention... but I am going to spit-ball here.

 

I focus on my belt vessel for one primary reason: I have a bone displaced in my lower back (due to sports in past) and the only solution (ie: fix) is nuts and bolts in my body... I refuse that solution as long as I can walk ! LOL

 

A secondary reason comes from my learning Tai Chi. My taiwan master emphasized this so much as the source of all movements. So the LDT may be a 'lower brain' but that area may also be the source of all of our movement. It makes sense in many ways, which there is not time here to say.

 

So, I think you are right to look at the girdling/belt as to its contribution of energy direction and pressure in rotating the LDT.

 

I would like to hear more of your experience in regards to this.

 

 

That’s great – thank you.

 

Been an interesting 24hrs……

 

After my last ‘Swastika’ post I was contacted separately by a serious and respected practitioner I know from the world of Zen, who expressed grave concern about the detailed RAB method in the post, the belt channel/martial arts reference and where we were going with it. No idea he was on this forum, but he knows me and my level of Zen cultivation. Would emphasise this is not a moderator or connected to Tao Bums.

 

Specifically he stated that this type of ‘RAB’ is 2/3 of a VERY high level martial arts practice - we are just missing the middle bit. This practice has as a multitude of uses - mainly to generate explosive internal power, but also health uses, and high level meditation. It’s specifically focused on generating ‘rapid’ rotation of the LDT to drive/pump Qi through the girdling meridian/belt channel, and then the onward effects of this….

 

He told me the missing element of the practice and its correct sequence (after an extended Q and A), principally because he was concerned I would hurt myself (knows I don’t give up easy), by going too far the wrong way - causes ‘false’ Qi flow, that if done too much is a key cause of ‘dragon sickness’. Bad for you… But also because the missing element is (in itself) a mid/late stage Zen technique that I’m already aware of but have not mentioned here.

 

I have validated it this am - it’s hard but doable, seems very effective... It combines 3 elements (powerful in themselves) with subtly and force, whilst being very precise.

 

I am going to speak to him again today and, if he agrees, I will publish it here in detail, with whatever terms and conditions he feels appropriate. As it stands he has asked me not to do so and even consider deleting the existing posts. It’s dangerous stuff, which I accept as above, but others may not be aware of what ‘dangerous’ really means. He also has to consider his own tradition and its followers in this matter, plus I have to go and do some research to validate what is already in the public domain.

 

Thanks.

[Chainer]

I don't understand too much theory. If you do what he says, the dan tian will rotate

I think if we try and make analogies (for ourselves) with physical things, etc we will get too caught up in the words and risk missing the actual experiences.

 

Instead of cogs, gears, wheels etc why not just simply experience it, let the dan tian expand, apply gentle contraction and let it spin (and after a while it will do it on it's own, without having to think about it at all)

 

To repeat a part of a cliche, here's what I'm trying to say -

 

Supposing we never saw snow before in our lives. And made up analogies about how snow is like fluffy cotton, it is cold like ice etc. But once we saw snow, we actually held it in our hands, felt it on our skin, if we didn't let go of the analogies, then we risk missing out the fact that snow is snow (and instead constantly play the various properties it tends to display - that analogies indicate). I'm saying once you get the dan tian, once it spins (without descriptions, examples, visualization), just from pure sensation and feeling, there will be no need for analogies.

 

Understand what you are saying, however I'm from a Western culture and therefore have been taught from an early age to 'learn' through such devices. In short, I have no choice in the matter...

 

I'm very comfortable with my level of intention/yi etc etc, and understand how it works, better than most - in itself it is just one more intellectual 'device' that you can learn to master through autosuggestion and then disassociation. Its not an end itself, indeed attachment to the early states of mind that come from progress is one of the greatest traps... you must push on past that 'messianic', 'saintly' feeling of knowledge/power/peace - laugh at it, pity it, then get back on horse...

 

Might be worth restating some thing here, just to be sure - I have come to Nei Gong to try and find a way forward with my Zen, which I already cultivate at a high level, after 20yrs of practice.

 

Problem with Zen is it only works with what you ‘start with’, where as Daosim is happy to harvest energy from the ‘environment’, to boost what you start with. In Zen if your basic quality is weak, then (even though you make ‘rapid’ progress), your experiences will be of a low quality, ‘minor kensho’ etc etc. Zen then basically gives up on you, or requires you to become a monk, ask the gods for help…. Daosim’s sequences and systems means you make veeeeery slow progress, but ultimately gives you a better chance, does not depend so much on what you start with..

 

 

Therefore – to be clear - I see my current focus on LDT/Qi as stage 1 of this fix, with stage 2 being MDT/Shen work (chest breathing/Aura work which I know is key but I won’t start until I’m happy with LDT work). I am very clear about what I doing and how I am doing it – using Nei Gong to boost my basic quality, and hence have a very different approach than normal.

 

Hope that clarifies where I’m coming from and why. Please be aware - the exact technique in that reference you published has been extremely helpful in further refining the RAB method, indeed (as with all such things) it has brought to light a very effective method that appears to be known and used by a select few for thousands of years.....

 

Many thanks again.

[Chainer]

Yup. And my favorite metaphor for "the whole is not the sum total of its parts" is ice cream. Despite the name containing both words, it's neither ice nor cream, neither ice with cream nor cream of ice, neither iced cream nor creamy ice, neither icy cream nor creamed ice, neither cream made of ice nor ice made of cream. One lick and you know what it is though.

 

Yep, it is a real shame that we have only the personal interpretation of imprecise words as shorthand for complex and detailed spiritual experiences...which have already been translated into 'near equivalents', and therefore are even more confused...

 

Its destroyed the mystical traditions of the West - Christianity is lost to the mists of time, politics and mistranslation in particular - kinda sad that literally Millions of people say the lords prayer everyday in English, Spanish etc with no idea some key bits are completely wrong..

 

However what other choice is there! Barring the fabled mind-to-mind transmission of Zen masters, (in my experience little more than resonant transmission of strong 'feelings') you have to make the best of where you are, and try and tease out the truth, step by painful step...

 

Adore your avatar avi btw

[dwai]

Understand what you are saying, however I'm from a Western culture and therefore have been taught from an early age to 'learn' through such devices. In short, I have no choice in the matter...

 

I'm very comfortable with my level of intention/yi etc etc, and understand how it works, better than most - in itself it is just one more intellectual 'device' that you can learn to master through autosuggestion and then disassociation. Its not an end itself, indeed attachment to the early states of mind that come from progress is one of the greatest traps... you must push on past that 'messianic', 'saintly' feeling of knowledge/power/peace - laugh at it, pity it, then get back on horse...

 

Might be worth restating some thing here, just to be sure - I have come to Nei Gong to try and find a way forward with my Zen, which I already cultivate at a high level, after 20yrs of practice.

 

Problem with Zen is it only works with what you ‘start with’, where as Daosim is happy to harvest energy from the ‘environment’, to boost what you start with. In Zen if your basic quality is weak, then (even though you make ‘rapid’ progress), your experiences will be of a low quality, ‘minor kensho’ etc etc. Zen then basically gives up on you, or requires you to become a monk, ask the gods for help…. Daosim’s sequences and systems means you make veeeeery slow progress, but ultimately gives you a better chance, does not depend so much on what you start with..

 

 

Therefore – to be clear - I see my current focus on LDT/Qi as stage 1 of this fix, with stage 2 being MDT/Shen work (chest breathing/Aura work which I know is key but I won’t start until I’m happy with LDT work). I am very clear about what I doing and how I am doing it – using Nei Gong to boost my basic quality, and hence have a very different approach than normal.

 

Hope that clarifies where I’m coming from and why. Please be aware - the exact technique in that reference you published has been extremely helpful in further refining the RAB method, indeed (as with all such things) it has brought to light a very effective method that appears to be known and used by a select few for thousands of years.....

 

Many thanks again.

I hope I didn't come across as "preachy" in anyway. My post regd. "descriptions/analogies" was a result of my experiential understanding of that matter (after having spent too much precious time trying to describe/explain the process to myself (instead of just feeling it)).

[Chainer]

I hope I didn't come across as "preachy" in anyway. My post regd. "descriptions/analogies" was a result of my experiential understanding of that matter (after having spent too much precious time trying to describe/explain the process to myself (instead of just feeling it)).

 

Not at all, be assured I was grateful for your input, very focused on the RAB tricks and techniques at min. Hopefully I'll be able to put up another method with feedback in short term.

 

Just trying to explain my own attitude toward Daoist practice at the moment, otherwise it would perhaps come across as rushed and unwise, whereas its actually a disciplined approach to solve a problem, is all.

[Chainer]

 

 

I am going to speak to him again today and, if he agrees, I will publish it here in detail, with whatever terms and conditions he feels appropriate. As it stands he has asked me not to do so and even consider deleting the existing posts. It’s dangerous stuff, which I accept as above, but others may not be aware of what ‘dangerous’ really means. He also has to consider his own tradition and its followers in this matter, plus I have to go and do some research to validate what is already in the public domain.

 

Have been through a couple of weeks of discussions re martial arts RAB method and have a way forward.

 

Sadly I'm not able to post it in its 'original' version.

 

However have found a very similar technique online and therefore will post this - its basically a modified 'Breath of Fire' method, but its very specific. Also have found a published ref to mid/late stage Zen technique (much to the surprise of many) - its called 'Bamboo breathing', so can incorporate this. These 2 will get you the whole practice, with one tiny element missing, which does not matter to a huge extent (its martial arts specific and comes down to intensity).

 

From this point forward I'll refer to it as 'Fire Breath'.

 

To keep everyone happy I'm going to repost this as a new thread, outside of this beginners section. Also I'm going to put a substantial warning label on the front of the method - its REALLY not for beginners. Have just agreed the basic text of this, sadly its all a bit dramatic but would be interested in the feedback so will do it anyway.

 

2 interesting points on the method - to drive rapid rotation of the LDT -

- Its in 2 stages, has a focused practiced (max 1-2hrs a day) and a maintenance practice (all the rest of the time, as able).

- its about as 'forced' a practice as its gets, to be clear you are driving the forward rotation of your LDT, all the time.

 

Lastly - many people, who are not fit or martial artists will struggle with it, specifically you need substantial core strength/tone in your abs to be able to do this. If you are used to deep lower abdominal breathing it will be a very hard initially.

[katsura]

You mention Thrusting Vessel and talk of going up the spine... we need to be clear about what you are doing here. This vessel runs interior although it connects to the spine its flow is more along the path of the Tai Ji Pole (happy to be corrected by others experienced in this).

I'm hardly an expert, but when I had my first serious kundalini experience, it was confusing. All I ever heard before then was "up the spine, the spine, the spine", which I naturally interpreted as 'up the back', but of course what I felt was it thrusting right through the trunk of my body from root to crown.

Edited September 28, 2014 by katsura

[Gerard]

...the general opinion about such practice.

 

Another one that you should avoid as well. Forcing, manipulating things is not the way of correct cultivation. Put more focus on purifying your mind or you'll run into trouble.

[JinlianPai]

Another one that you should avoid as well. Forcing, manipulating things is not the way of correct cultivation. Put more focus on purifying your mind or you'll run into trouble.

 

 

A-fucking-Men

[freeform]

Chainer, it's hard to ascertain from words on a forum, but it seems to me that you're going too 'physical' with this.

 

LDT rotation may indeed feel quite physical at times, but it doesn't always. The physical aspect is the result of an energetic movement, and not normally the cause of it.

 

Go and see Damo in person - he will get your LDT spinning in no time (especially as you've already got such extensive experience in zen practice). This would be the fastest route to 'get' this properly.

[thelerner]

When it comes to advice, freeform is a wise and trusted source.

 

been a while, good to see back.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

in the scheme of internal martial arts,

the physical rotation of the dantian should be accompanied with complementary hip and leg movement.

moving the dantian on its own is not only ineffective, but also not good for the spine if you turn too far too often.

in terms of daoist cultivation, there is no good reason to turn the dantian.