Does Thinking Stop?

[fatherpaul]

If there was a witnessing of silence, there was still a witnesser, and thus something to discriminate which creates the idea of the witnesser and the silence being witnessed.

It was still a thought basically. This is a deep state though, not easy to reach for a great many, but easy for those who can.

 

Thoughts do stop, but they are not extinguished nor produced. Once there is a recogniztion of stillness, there is movement; recognition of the state of no thought, but this recognition creates the thought that there was no thought, and thus that creates a being recognizing thought, which inturn creates the thought of attainng the state again, which deepens the idea of a being and an object.

Someone once asked me how it all began. I believe it was Cameron (maybe)...the process is in the above statement...in a raw form so to say.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

 

 

i would only add

when it is at rest, it is at rest

when it is in motion, it is in motion.

 

peace

paul

[林愛偉]

i would only add

when it is at rest, it is at rest

when it is in motion, it is in motion.

 

peace

paul

 

So it is.

 

 

I look forward to the day we can have some tea together !

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[Guest sykkelpump]

If you can stop your internal dialog for 5 minuts you should have reached samadhi or at least be on a very high level in meditation.Based on your other posts I dont belive you have done that.

 

 

 

Actually to stop inner dialogue is not too hard for some people. It really depends on how you process incoming data (reality) - It's very subtle and you really need someone who knows the subtle cues to 'show' you how you 'decode' reality.

 

For example my primary filter is kinesthetic - I feel reality... my secondary, elaborative process is inner dialogue... So I tend to feel something and then talk about it in my head. For me, to stop the inner dialogue I have to put my full attention on the feeling and make subtle distinctions there without 'thinking' about them, or elaborating. This way I tend to be able to stop inner dialogue for a good 3 to 5 minutes.

 

Every person has a primary and secondary filter - some have inner dialogue as their primary! so for them it's very hard (Yen comes to mind, as well as many of my scientific friends).

 

It's hard to percieve by yourself because it's happening every millisecond, just as it's hard for a fish to percieve that it's wet.

 

There are generally three ways to percieve your 'filtering style' - slow down time and connect to the observer inside. It's probably the hardest way... another way is have someone who is trained in this kind of thing to watch you being you - an NLP master, or even some meditation and qi gong teachers might be able to. And you could also find out your Enneagram style - each style has certain pre-dispositions - so you learn about them and then observe yourself to see if it fits...

[fatherpaul]

So it is.

I look forward to the day we can have some tea together !

 

Peace,

Aiwei

 

 

*bows*

 

thank you for the tea

[buddabubba]

paul,

 

please accept the breaking of my stick over your head in the selfless manner in which it is intended...

[zenbrook]

Someone told me today that even with long practice in meditation, you don't really stop the constant mind chatter, you merely step back and observe it happening. I had always thought the object was to shut it down. Anyone want to give me their experiences in the matter?

I guess I should preface this by the ZenB disclaimer: the following relates to my own experience and as such should be taken with a coupla sackfuls of salt.

 

The goal of meditation is less 'stopping' thought and more 'remaining uninvolved' with thought. It's the natural capacity of mind to think, to have thoughts, and consequently we shouldn't be in too much of a hurry to get rid of them. We do, however, need to relax our relationship with thought, to the point where we can begin to connect with the source of thought - the vast, spacious, luminous quality of mind some call Tao, some call emptiness, some, I guess, call God.

 

This, in itself, is a somewhat Herculean task, but it is the principle behind meditation practices such as samatha (or zazen or shi-ne or listening, depending on brand). Emphasis on 'emptiness' in spiritual practices usually focuses on this aim.

 

Beyond emptiness, if you will, we need to allow the natural capacity of the mind for thought to re-emerge - the ultimate aim of vispassana meditation (in Tibetan, lha-tong - further vision).

 

So a quiet or empty mind should not be seen as the ultimate goal - indeed, the prerequisite for tantric practice is precisely this state of mind. It is, however, a crucial step along the path - and one which I feel at least is all too often overlooked by seekers of non-dual spirituality.

 

This, of course, is the reason non-duality is non-dual - emptiness and form being two sides of the same coin, as it were, the natural spaciousness and natural luminosity of mind go hand in hand.

 

I think the (admittedly somewhat cheesy) analogy of apple juice is appropriate here: if you want the bits in a freshly squeezed glass of apple juice to settle - you just leave it alone - the bits will settle of themselves. The same with thoughts.

 

Patience and relaxed attention.... or, at least, thus have I heard

 

Peace,

ZenB

[buddabubba]

zenbrook,

 

nice post, well said, here's a hearty stomp on your foot....

 

he who wants non-effort without effort

or non-duality without duality

does not understand the nature of Heaven and Earth

the way things hang together...

 

i'm a buddha

you're a buddha

he's a buddha

she's a buddha

wouldn't ya like to be a buddha too?

be a buddha

think like a buddha...

[林愛偉]

paul,

 

please accept the breaking of my stick over your head in the selfless manner in which it is intended...

 

 

You can use my head instead.

 

Amituofo!

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[zenbrook]

he who wants non-effort without effort

or non-duality without duality

does not understand the nature of Heaven and Earth

the way things hang together...

Absolutely!

 

Although, of course, the absolute's another matter altogether

 

Peace,

ZenB

[freeform]

If you can stop your internal dialog for 5 minuts you should have reached samadhi or at least be on a very high level in meditation.Based on your other posts I dont belive you have done that.

 

Thanks for your concern, sykkelpump.

 

I certainly don't consider myself 'a very high level meditator' - I also don't really know what samadhi is. However it's certainly very noticeable when my mind is silent, and it's quite hard to tell how long the silence lasts for, I can only really estimate after the meditation.

 

Maybe I am deluding myself, but it's certainly quite striking when dialogue stops, could I be masking the dialogue somehow? It was very alarming at first and as soon as I'd 'notice' the dialogue was back. Do you count body awareness as inner dialogue? Because my current experience is the witnessing of 'physicality' (without talking about it or analysing)

 

I'm also wondering how you can tell someone's meditation ability from their posts. I'm not being sarky, and am genuinely interested - is it the energy of the post or the words I use or the concepts being put forth?

[fatherpaul]

paul,

 

please accept the breaking of my stick over your head in the selfless manner in which it is intended...

 

one should refrain from striking oneself over the head with a stick

peace,

paul

[zenbrook]

I certainly don't consider myself 'a very high level meditator' - I also don't really know what samadhi is. However it's certainly very noticeable when my mind is silent, and it's quite hard to tell how long the silence lasts for, I can only really estimate after the meditation.

I know there are strongly held points of view that maintain that 'stopping the internal dialogue' is a high-level or advanced meditation. However, in my experience that's simply not borne out by reality.

 

Indeed, some people find it relatively easy to enter a state of 'mind without content' - and can remain there for some time. The problem with this, is that nothing of real worth takes place in this state.... more often than not, it the very fact that we do not recognize the empty essence of mind that makes it such a difficult practice - for those that enter it freely, re-engaging with content becomes the order of the day.

 

I'm reminded here of the story of the Tibetan yogin who entered meditation on emptiness for many years, only to emerge asking his wife whether the radish curry she had been cooking when he began his meditation session was ready! His wife gave him a sound beating for his uselessness! It's just a story, but the point's pertinent - once mind without content has been stabilized in meditation, one must allow content to re-arise within the vastness.... and threatening that peace and stability can be the scariest practice of all for many.

 

(There are also those for whom meditation on emptiness seems impossible, whereas the practice of further vision - discovering presence in movement - comes somewhat more naturally.)

 

So I guess what I'm saying is: if you feel it, don't knock it - when your mind's silent, your mind's silent - and ultimately you're the only true judge of that experience.

 

'Late at night, when everyone is quiet, sit alone and gaze into

the mind; then you notice illusion ending and reality appearing.

You gain a great sense of potential in this every time. Once you

have noticed reality appearing yet find that illusion is hard to

escape, you also find yourself greatly humbled.'

 

Peace,

ZenB

[freeform]

Indeed, some people find it relatively easy to enter a state of 'mind without content' - and can remain there for some time. The problem with this, is that nothing of real worth takes place in this state.... more often than not, it the very fact that we do not recognize the empty essence of mind that makes it such a difficult practice - for those that enter it freely, re-engaging with content becomes the order of the day.

 

Yes this resonates quite strongly - I find that for me, the content comes afterwards - usually quite unpleasant - namely: anger - all this anger comes up and if I stay with it, a really deep sense of sadness and grief comes up from beneath that.

 

Funny thing is, if you met me you'd think I'm the calmest, least angry person around - but it turns out that I hold a lot of anger inside.

 

I've had this anger coming up for the past 6 - 7 months and it still does - the sadness beneath is a relatively new revalation - so even though I can silence inner dialogue quite easily, my progress is by no means fast, and rarely do I get glimpses of bliss or anything like that...

[zenbrook]

YI've had this anger coming up for the past 6 - 7 months and it still does - the sadness beneath is a relatively new revalation - so even though I can silence inner dialogue quite easily, my progress is by no means fast, and rarely do I get glimpses of bliss or anything like that...

Bliss is overrated. It's the real juice of practice - the anger, the sadness, the raw everyday emotions - that fuel the spiritual path.

 

'When you feel so sad and tender, that also brings ideas for how to uplift the rest of the world. Joining sadness and joy is the only mechanism that brings the vision of the Great Eastern Sun.'

 

So said Trungpa and while I may not agree with everything he said, it seems relevant here. The point is not to shy away from this sadness.... here's his student, Pema Chodron, with perhaps more in the way of relevance:

 

'When we train in letting go of thinking that anything-including ourselves-is either good or bad, we open our minds to practice with forgiveness and humor. And we practice opening to a compassionate space in which good/bad judgments can dissolve. We practice letting go of our idea of a "goal" and letting go of our concept of "progress," because right there, in that process of letting go, is where our hearts open and soften-over and over again.'

 

Peace,

ZenB

[Guest sykkelpump]

you can tell a little from others post on their meditation level,because it have a direct link with how open their energy channels is.and by reading your posts I can understand your channels is not so open.if they was,you should had no problem with redirecting your sexual energy among other things.

Thanks for your concern, sykkelpump.

 

I certainly don't consider myself 'a very high level meditator' - I also don't really know what samadhi is. However it's certainly very noticeable when my mind is silent, and it's quite hard to tell how long the silence lasts for, I can only really estimate after the meditation.

 

Maybe I am deluding myself, but it's certainly quite striking when dialogue stops, could I be masking the dialogue somehow? It was very alarming at first and as soon as I'd 'notice' the dialogue was back. Do you count body awareness as inner dialogue? Because my current experience is the witnessing of 'physicality' (without talking about it or analysing)

 

I'm also wondering how you can tell someone's meditation ability from their posts. I'm not being sarky, and am genuinely interested - is it the energy of the post or the words I use or the concepts being put forth?

[林愛偉]

zenbrook,

 

nice post, well said, here's a hearty stomp on your foot....

 

he who wants non-effort without effort

or non-duality without duality

does not understand the nature of Heaven and Earth

the way things hang together...

 

i'm a buddha

you're a buddha

he's a buddha

she's a buddha

wouldn't ya like to be a buddha too?

be a buddha

think like a buddha...

 

Now don't confuse the non dual nature as being against the nature of heaven and earth. Why? Because Heaven and Earth are created by karma and will be transformed by karma. They both revolve on the wheel of those creating them. Heaven is not the highest point. In other words, Those in the Heavens have karma, work in th estate of duality..until they don't Until they don't work in the state of duality, everything you about the Heavens will be in a state of duality.

The Heavens are not something to look up to. They are created by one's Karma. The nature of Heaven and Earth is not different than eachother..but there is no such nature that exists apart from living beings. And that nature is not dualistic. Only in the perception of creation are things dualistic.

Heaven still has a form..whether it is of thought or of no thought. The many heavens out ther do exist due to the beings who created them from their mind. When those beings stop working on that level of manifestation, those heavens will cease to exist, and all this nonsense about the "Will and Nature of Heaven and Earth" will finally be dropped and living beings can actually accomoplish the result of cultivation.

The Will one thinks is coming from the Heavens, is only the will of those in the Heavens. Those in the Heavens influence where ever they choose to, and that is the will of wht they feel is proper in their own mind. If there is mess in the Hevens, as there is, there is mess on Earth. Earth is not in the greatest shape.. so what do you think is happening in the heavens?

The true nature of all things has no Will, but it is where Will resides.

 

Peace and Happiness.. only if it is your choice of fate

 

Aiwei

Edited June 30, 2007 by 林愛偉

[buddabubba]

Now don't confuse the non dual nature as being against the nature of heaven and earth.

 

I don't believe I did. I thought I was being pretty clear that it isn't...

 

As to the rest of your post, it is beyond me...

 

[Cameron]

Ime listening to some Sailor Bob as I just read Aiwei's post and I think he touches on the same thing.

 

What Bob says-very simply-is that all karma is based on the thought that a seperate "I" exists and the "I thoughts" basically being the cause of karma.

 

In other words, he says all karma is based on belief in ego. So in order to end karma-see that there never was or is an "I" in the first place-just a thought.

 

The tricky part is most people have put so much time and energy into the "I thought" that to just say see that it doesn't exist is quite challening(if seeing that even interests to you to begin with)

 

No "I"-no karma-no cause, no effect.

 

Sounds pretty much what the Buddha talked about to me. Just fun to here it from this down to Earth Australian dude.

 

ps. Go to the Sailor Bob thread I just sent to the top and check out episode #35 of the Advaita Show. Bob talks about this in great detail.

[林愛偉]

I don't believe I did. I thought I was being pretty clear that it isn't...

 

As to the rest of your post, it is beyond me...

 

 

 

 

Ime listening to some Sailor Bob as I just read Aiwei's post and I think he touches on the same thing.

 

What Bob says-very simply-is that all karma is based on the thought that a seperate "I" exists and the "I thoughts" basically being the cause of karma.

 

In other words, he says all karma is based on belief in ego. So in order to end karma-see that there never was or is an "I" in the first place-just a thought.

 

The tricky part is most people have put so much time and energy into the "I thought" that to just say see that it doesn't exist is quite challening(if seeing that even interests to you to begin with)

 

No "I"-no karma-no cause, no effect.

 

Sounds pretty much what the Buddha talked about to me. Just fun to here it from this down to Earth Australian dude.

 

ps. Go to the Sailor Bob thread I just sent to the top and check out episode #35 of the Advaita Show. Bob talks about this in great detail.

 

THat's it right there.

 

Now, even when one awakens to the non dual mind, drops the I, they still have to deal with the outcomes from past causes. Realization doesn't wipe them all away, but it does lessen the momentum of them in one's mind and ultimately, their life.

Once a problem is small it can be wiped away completely.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 30, 2007 by 林愛偉

[fatherpaul]

THat's it right there.

 

Now, even when one awakens to the non dual mind, drops the I, they still have to deal with the outcomes from past causes. Realization doesn't wipe them all away, but it does lessen the momentum of them in one's mind and ultimately, their life.

Once a problem is small it can be wiped away completely.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

indeed

it is so

[freeform]

you can tell a little from others post on their meditation level,because it have a direct link with how open their energy channels is.and by reading your posts I can understand your channels is not so open.if they was,you should had no problem with redirecting your sexual energy among other things.

 

aah! I see - yes I agree my channels are far from being completely open. The sexual energy redirects itself sometimes, but rarely, I tend not to be concerned with that.

 

You have a Bodri-esque vibe to your posts - I actually enjoyed a couple of his books - though I dont take them as gospel...

 

I've got to check out Sailor Bob - what Cam wrote about karma rings true for me, and I like the simplicity too

[林愛偉]

Just a note:

 

It is only say the meridians are "closed" because of the lack of awareness of them. Infact, The meridians have so much energy in them, that when we become...mindful of it, we begin to experience what it feels like, and enhance it by exercises like Qigong.

The term "closed" was coined to represent "not aware". It made the student work harder to cultivate instead of just think and intellectually know of the meridians.

 

If they were indeed really "closed" one would be dead. It is just that there is no mindfulness of the meridians. The more cultivation of Qi, the more energy one will have, thus enhancing the body which results in more energy in the meridians and more sensations..but sensations are only a tip of the iceberg.

 

Just clearing abit of the misconception of "closed" meridians. There can be blocked, but not totally closed off..if so , no energy would be circulating. No energy in the meridians results in a sick body..dead body.

 

 

 

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[soaring crane]

 

Just clearing abit of the misconception of "closed" meridians. There can be blocked, but not totally closed off..if so , no energy would be circulating. No energy in the meridians results in a sick body..dead body.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

 

That's a very, very important distiction, Aiwei, thank you for posting it. Would you agree that the real bulk of the problems people encounter with Qigong is simply a matter of "lack" as opposed to "blocked" or "closed" meridians/gates? Many of us simply have depleted our stores of Qi and the flow is weak, but it has nothing to do with the conduits themselves.

 

I really think this is hugely important because there is so much information out there about how to move Qi through, for example, the Small Heavenly Orbit, but not much about what to do to restore our reserves of Qi in the first place, which requires much more than simple meditation techniques and often demands a change of lifestyle, ie, work and dedication.

[林愛偉]

That's a very, very important distiction, Aiwei, thank you for posting it. Would you agree that the real bulk of the problems people encounter with Qigong is simply a matter of "lack" as opposed to "blocked" or "closed" meridians/gates? Many of us simply have depleted our stores of Qi and the flow is weak, but it has nothing to do with the conduits themselves.

 

I really think this is hugely important because there is so much information out there about how to move Qi through, for example, the Small Heavenly Orbit, but not much about what to do to restore our reserves of Qi in the first place, which requires much more than simple meditation techniques and often demands a change of lifestyle, ie, work and dedication.

 

 

The real bulk of one's problems is misunderstanding that meridians are always open and lack of knowledge in maintaining a certain level of energy in the body. I put it to cultural differences. And I will bluntly say it has to do a hell of a lot with sexual, eating and behavioral culture.

When Qigong, before it was called Qigong, back in "Old China" was cultivated, sexuality was not expressed as openly as it is now in China because there were reserves about it. One of the many reasons was one's behavior after involved with countless sexual experiences. Wild desire must be tamed or there results in irresponsible behavior not just in sex, but in mannerisms in daily life, thoughts and emotions...they become more "wild".

The great reason why so many ancients excelled gracefully in cultivation was the conservation and refinement of Jing... essense, sperm, and women have similar liquids as well. They all must be conserved. Any excess release will cause health problems, and also mental/behavioral problems.

 

"Closed" meridians is just the body with very little uncultivated energy. When one breathes to relax, it is bringng energy into the body, and thus the meridians will be full, body calm. That is just the ordinary level of things.

Begin practicing Qigong, and other problems arise. Build up of energy in the body results in stronger sexual feeling, and enhances desire. I have seen the most serious of practitioners hurt their body by cultivating a lot and then wasting it away during sex. Also, practicing and not drinking enough water, resulting in drying out and major health problems.

 

In the west, and now in china as well, people are looking much older than they have before. Why? Sex and eating habits. That relaxed feeling after ejaculation and for women after a few orgasms, is your energy level depleting. When after eating a great full meal of beef or other meats, the body is just heavy, using more energy for digestion thn the stomach and spleen can muster...and so pulls from other organs, especially kidneys, and then that nice heavy sleepy feeling after dinner, and small nap which results in a fatter belly and unhealthy living. Sugars, cold drinks, meat, chemical induced foods...these things cause problems for the body, and drain from the meridians basically.

 

Keep up practice of Qigong, DIET and HABITS are most important to change or there will be no preserving and refining of any Qi one can compress. One can do all the MCO they want, but if they are not watching what they are doing, thinking, etc, they are wasting their time. It is as though they are not even practicing MCO/Qigong. Sensations felt at the time mean nothing to the overall picture of things.

 

One of my elder cultivation brothers says "Have sex in good moderation, eat veggies. If you are having sex, dual cultivation is a must, just don't be a master nut cracker. Leave that for the squirrels!"

 

Change Habits, Thoughts about your habits and Diet. Three keys to good practice of cultivation. If one wants even higher results, start making a foundation of promises for your cultivation, vows that are only for you to you. They help to keep the "monkey mind" under cultivated control.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 30, 2007 by 林愛偉

[fatherpaul]

energy is endless