Ramana Quote does not belong in CN Norbu's latest book

[RongzomFan]

And, by your faulty logic, anyone whom arives at the result of Dzogchen would be "buddhadharma", therefore Ramana would be too, and all the rest of the Zen, Tao, Vendanta etc realized practitioners.

 

 

The result of Dzogchen is rainbow body/enlightenment.

 

That does not include Ramana, Zen people, Vedanta etc.

Edited September 30, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

There is no "being" in gzhi.

 

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/bon-buddhism/resources/glossary-of-bon-terms.html

 

kunzhi (tib: kun gzhi) In Bon, the kunzhi is the base of all that exists, including the individual. The kunzhi is the unity of emptiness and clarity; of the absolute open indeterminacy of ultimate reality and the unceasing display of appearance and awareness. The kunzhi is the base or ground of being.

[Simple_Jack]

I think you are bullshitting me. At least I quote my sources instead of making them up like you.

 

Believe whatever you want, just make sure at some point to receive instruction from a guru.

[Simple_Jack]

And, by your faulty logic, anyone whom arives at the result of Dzogchen would be "buddhadharma", therefore Ramana would be too, and all the rest of the Zen, Tao, Vendanta etc realized practitioners.

 

So, I just skimmed through part of the thread referenced from the OP....

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=60

 

"Anyway, Dzogchen rejects Advaita and Samkhya explicitly, even mentioned Shankaracarya, etc., by name in the rig pa rang shar tantra."

 

 

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/bon-buddhism/resources/glossary-of-bon-terms.html

 

kunzhi (tib: kun gzhi) In Bon, the kunzhi is the base of all that exists, including the individual. The kunzhi is the unity of emptiness and clarity; of the absolute open indeterminacy of ultimate reality and the unceasing display of appearance and awareness. The kunzhi is the base or ground of being.

 

I'm telling you, once the people currently in charge of translation committees, along with their translation teams, retire and die off: by the next 50-80 years these translations will be superseded by translations of a markedly improved accuracy.

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=60

 

"There is no ultimate ground of being in Dzogchen for the simple reason that Dzogchen rejects all four extremes of being, non-being, both and neither. The basis, original purity, has no "being" per se, since if it did, it could not express itself, since it would be nonempty and permanent."

 

 

 

P.S. Kun gzhi and gzhi are two distinct terms.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Jetsun]

Jetsun, your lack of understanding is the problem.

 

Everyone, including Malcolm, admits that Vedantins and Zen people can recognize unfabricated presence.

 

Recognizing unfabricated presence, doesn't make a system the same as Dzogchen.

 

For us, recognizing unfabricated presence is only day 1. That's only the wisdom of kadag.

 

Then we do practices that relate to the lhun grub wisdom of rigpa, such as dark retreat etc.

 

Saying that Vedanta and Zen only recognise "unfabricated presence" is just an attempt to categorise and conceptualise that which is beyond the conceptual mind, in other words its a load of crap.

 

You should look at what Tsoknyi Rinpoche has been doing recently as he has been having conferences with Zen Master Joan Halifax and they agree that what Dzogchen points at is the same as what they call in Zen "your original face", and he is a master far more qualified, regarded and experienced than Malcolm.

[Pero]

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/bon-buddhism/resources/glossary-of-bon-terms.html

 

kunzhi (tib: kun gzhi) In Bon, the kunzhi is the base of all that exists, including the individual. The kunzhi is the unity of emptiness and clarity; of the absolute open indeterminacy of ultimate reality and the unceasing display of appearance and awareness. The kunzhi is the base or ground of being.

 

This is just what some translators use for gzhi but the word itself means just "base" or "ground". Kunzhi is actually kun gyi gzhi - the base of all or the all-base (it's not the same as gzhi and also there are is a difference between what these terms mean for bonpos and buddhists but I don't remember what it was). For it to be ground of being it would be something like yod pa'i gzhi - ground of existence/being but it isn't.

 

Translators are just human too and so can be mistaken.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I don't see the need to argue too much about lofty subtleties that are beyond novices like (unless there are sages here not revealing themselves) all of us.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

Hey TI,

I honestly think, that Ramana, Nisargadatta, and a few other teachers from that generation, made their teachings very absolute, i.e. this is the way it is and that's that.

 

Whereas in Dzogchen, you have channels, five lamps, chanting letters over chakras, postures, sky gazing, etc.....all of which is designed to get you to the same place Ramana is speaking of.

 

Its the same thing, just different words, imho.

 

Even in some of the restricted dzogchen books they discuss one method being, the seeing of all things as concepts and unreal, with the mind having no source, which is supposed to lead to Enlightenment quickly.

 

The most vital aspect, is to practice, and be in these states experientially.

 

There is a lot of very dogmatic purists that I've found in all branches of study. People that get so angry if you discuss similarities in other paths. Many of those can be found on Taobums as well. And yet, there are many paths that are all leading to the same place. Let the dogmatists argue, while we remain in practice

Edited September 30, 2013 by ॐDominicusॐ

[RongzomFan]

Unless Ramana has a body of light, its really not the same fucking thing at all.

Saying that Vedanta and Zen only recognise "unfabricated presence" is just an attempt to categorise and conceptualise that which is beyond the conceptual mind, in other words its a load of crap.

 

Are you saying Vedanta and Zen people display rainbow body?

 

You are the one full of crap.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Unless Ramana has a body of light, its really not the same fucking thing at all.

 

 

Are you saying Vedanta and Zen people display rainbow body?

 

You are the one full of crap.

Alwaysoff,

In Kriya Yoga, it is called the Golden body.

 

In Kunlun, it is called the diamond body.

 

Yes, characteristic of rainbow body is one of these three: After death the body shrinks, after death the body vanishes leaves hair and nail, or before death, the rainbow body is realized and permits the practitioner to manifest as a light form (or many) at any time or place.

 

However, what makes you think that this phenomenon only applies to Dzogchen? Perhaps in other parts of the world they embalm the body therefore there is little chance of observing the state of the body after it dies. But the main functionality of manifesting a light body while still alive is something that adepts/gurus/sages (yes even Ramana) can do and it is well documented too.

[Tibetan_Ice]

From "Mergin with Shiva":

 

When nirvi kalpa

samadhi has been practiced daily for many, many years—according to the

classical yoga teachings, for twelve years—and the golden body has been

built, the ku∫∂alini force coils itself in the sahasrara chakra of the yogi, at

the top of the head. This is known as the manas chakra, located about

where the hairline begins at the forehead. This chakra eventually becomes

the muladhara chakra, or the memory-pattern chakra, of the golden body.

458 MERGING WITH IIVA

The manas chakra is fully activated when the golden body is fully unfolded.

This is known in Hindu and Egyptian mystic schools as the golden body

of light, for it registers in the minds of those who look upon it, to their

soul body, as a golden ball of light or a golden body.

 

...\

 

The golden body, svar∫asarira, is a body made of golden

light. After many experiences of Parasiva, it gradually

descends from the seven chakras above the sahasrara into

the ajna chakra, which then becomes the soul’s muladhara,

then down into the vi suddha chakra, which then

becomes its muladhara, and then down into the anahata, which then becomes

its muladhara. ¶All seven chakras above the sahasrara slowly come

down and down and down until the entire astral body is psychically seen,

by mystics who have this sight, as a golden body. The astral body slowly,

slowly, slowly dissolves into the golden body. That is what I have seen happen.

That is what our parampara and our sampradaya know from ex per ience.

Experience is the only true knowing—a knowing that can be verified

in books, through others who have the same knowing, but a knowing that

no others know who have not had the same experience. To them it is only a

concept, a nice one maybe, but just a concept or written off as an opinion.

¶When the gold en body fully enters the physical, having taken over the

astral, the knowing that is known comes unbidden. It is beyond reason

but does not conflict with it. It is a living scripture but does not conflict

with those written by seers of the past who have seen and their records

have become scripture. So great is the Sanatana Dhar ma that it de fies all

who doubt it, all who disdain it, all who disregard it, all who de grade it,

with personal realization of its Truth. ¶This golden body, which begins

to build into a golden body after the experience of nirvi kalpa sama dhi, is

connected to the sahasrara chakra. In other words, the sahasrara chakra is

the home base in the physical body for the golden body. There are twelve

basic unfoldments to this chakra as the golden body grows. When the realized

sannyasin travels in high states of contemplation, he moves freely in

his golden body and can help and serve mankind. Over time, he gains a

conscious control of the sahasrara chakra as a force center which propels

him into inner space. ¶It is this golden body, as it refines and refines and

refines itself within the Iivaloka after moksha, that finally merges with

Iiva like a cup of water being poured into the ocean. That same water can

never be found and put back into the cup. This truly is svar∫asarira visvagrasa,

the final, final, final merging with Shiva.

[Jetsun]

Unless Ramana has a body of light, its really not the same fucking thing at all.

 

 

Are you saying Vedanta and Zen people display rainbow body?

 

You are the one full of crap.

 

Buddhahood isn't defined by the rainbow body, as the Dalai Lama points out it isn't even defined by the rainbow body within Tibetan Buddhism

 

"While on the path, to create an imprint of putting emphasis on both the wind and the mind with respect to the mode of achieving Buddahhood, one develops a pure illusory body together with the mind of clear light. Now I mentioned earlier a system which empahasizes just the mind. In the Kalachakra system, in dependence upon achieving a union of a body which is empty form and immutable bliss, Buddhahood is achieved. Then there is another, third mode, a rainbow body."

The Dalai Lama-"The end of suffering and the discovery of happiness" p.254

 

So there are numerous ways

[Aetherous]

About Ramana and light body, I read this a while back: http://the-wanderling.com/meeting.html

[RongzomFan]

Buddhahood isn't defined by the rainbow body, as the Dalai Lama points out it isn't even defined by the rainbow body within Tibetan Buddhism

 

"While on the path, to create an imprint of putting emphasis on both the wind and the mind with respect to the mode of achieving Buddahhood, one develops a pure illusory body together with the mind of clear light. Now I mentioned earlier a system which empahasizes just the mind. In the Kalachakra system, in dependence upon achieving a union of a body which is empty form and immutable bliss, Buddhahood is achieved. Then there is another, third mode, a rainbow body."

The Dalai Lama-"The end of suffering and the discovery of happiness" p.254

 

So there are numerous ways

 

Buddhahood is WAY beyond just recognizing the nature of the mind or unfabricated presence ala Vedanta.

Edited September 30, 2013 by alwayson

[Pero]

 

However, what makes you think that this phenomenon only applies to Dzogchen?

 

What makes you think all these are the same thing? Even in Dzogchen itself there are two bodies that can be achieved and sometimes both are called rainbow body but they are not the same. Then what can be achived through Higher Tantra practice too is sometimes called rainbow body and it is not the same either. Sure you can get to Buddhahood and not display a rainbow body (like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa), it is just a sign. But this is a specific sign that occurs as the result of Dzogchen practice (specifically thogal and the like).

[RongzomFan]

From "Mergin with Shiva":

 

Even Sivahood is way beyond just recognizing the nature of the mind.

 

Sivahood is about physical immorality.

 

In Kriya Yoga, it is called the Golden body.

 

In Kunlun, it is called the diamond body.

 

These are both bullshit New Age traditions.

 

And we are talking about Vedanta.

Edited September 30, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

What makes you think all these are the same thing? Even in Dzogchen itself there are two bodies that can be achieved and sometimes both are called rainbow body but they are not the same. Then what can be achived through Higher Tantra practice too is sometimes called rainbow body and it is not the same either. Sure you can get to Buddhahood and not display a rainbow body (like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa), it is just a sign. But this is a specific sign that occurs as the result of Dzogchen practice (specifically thogal and the like).

Do you have a book or reference to the bodies that are acheived in Dzogchen?

 

Trikayas?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even Sivahood is way beyond just recognizing the nature of the mind.

 

Sivahood is about physical immorality.

 

 

These are both bullshit New Age traditions.

 

And we are talking about Vedanta.

 

 

Did you mean "immortality" (not immorality)

 

Raja Yoga is not new age bullshit.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

Edited September 30, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

There is no "being" in gzhi.

 

 

 

Ok. Let's look at "Buddhahood Without Meditation".

 

The definition of zhi is this:

 

[zhi : the ground (of being); the fundamentally uncontrived nature of being; the Great Perfection teachings state that this ground is already endowed with all qualities of enlightened being, perfect and complete without having to be sought or brought into being deliberately; the process of the spiritual path is one of making the ground evident as the fruition, rather than fundamentally altering it in any way (basis (BM); Being (FRC); ground-basis (JN, PC); base, foundation (SL).

 

 

Then there is Malcolm's statement:

 

"There is no ultimate ground of being in Dzogchen for the simple reason that Dzogchen rejects all four extremes of being, non-being, both and neither. The basis, original purity, has no "being" per se, since if it did, it could not express itself, since it would be nonempty and permanent."

 

 

Essentially, what Malcolm did was take a well-known expression and switch the words "existence" with "being".

 

 

Here is the phrase:

link: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/dzogchen/basic_points/major_facets_dzogchen.html

Impure appearance-making (ma-dag-pa’i snang-ba) gives rise to appearances of things as having true existence, lacking true existence, both, or neither.

 

If there is one Dzogchen book that actually has the term 'being' in it instead of 'existence' in that phrase, I would sure like to know what book that would be. Typically, these statements refer to appearances, not being.

 

[Pero]

To be means to exist. The base is beyond the four extremes too. About bodies in Practice Of Dzogchen book (should be available online), will get you pages later now have to go.

[Pero]

It's on pages 82-85.

 

"The most exceptional sign of Dzogpa Chenpo at death is the dissolving or transforming of the mortal body. As stated before, there are two main forms of dissolution of the mortal body: the attainment of the dissolution of the atoms or the most subtle particles (total dissolution) of the mortal body, popularly known as the attainment of the Rainbow Body, through training in Tregchod, and the attainment of the Light Body or the Great Transference through training in Thodgal."

 

Then there are also some other achievements. But in any case they are not the same.

 

And also TI, from the same pages:

"Jigmed Lingpa: ... The result is called the Fully Enlightened One (S. Samyaksambuddha)..."

[RongzomFan]

Did you mean "immortality" (not immorality)

 

yes but Shiva is immoral too.....

[RongzomFan]

Raja Yoga is not new age bullshit.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

 

You keep changing the subject from Vedanta to Kunlun to kriya and now raja yoga.

 

Is raja yoga going to lead to the same level as Dudjom Lingpa?

 

And as far as I know, only one tradition has terma.

Edited October 1, 2013 by alwayson

[voidisyinyang]

 

And as far as I know, only one tradition has terma.

 

The terma tradition of rediscovering hidden teaching is not unique to Tibet. It has antecedents in India and cultural resonances in Hindu Vaishnavism as well. The Vaishnava saint Chaitanya is said to have rediscovered a fragment of the Brahma Samhita in a trance state of devotional ecstasy.

There is another occasion involving Chaitanya who deposited his divine love (prema) for great saint Narottama dasa Thakura in the river Padma in Bangladesh. When Narottama turned twelve years of age, he collected this treasure after a revelation in a dream.^[3]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_%28religion%29

 

whatever

[RongzomFan]

What a joke Wikipedia is. Only one tradition has terma.

 

I never heard of a Advaita Vedanta text revealed in a dream.

 

Gaudapada just ripped off Madhyamaka.

Edited October 2, 2013 by alwayson

[Aetherous]

Terma is a teaching revealed in a dream?