Ramana Quote does not belong in CN Norbu's latest book

[RongzomFan]

Terma is a teaching revealed in a dream?

 

Yes, that's one type of terma.

[Aetherous]

A lot of traditions have that. Not to jump in the thread and try to prove you wrong...just saying, it's a very common experience across most schools.

[RongzomFan]

A lot of traditions have that. Not to jump in the thread and try to prove you wrong...just saying, it's a very common experience across most schools.

 

You are free to make unsubstantiated statements.

[Aetherous]

I'm speaking from personal experience.

[RongzomFan]

Another difference is that Buddhadharma is the only true system.

 

One spontaneously sees a seated Buddha in the highest Buddhist practices. And this is not made by the mind. The image evolves organically in the viewing substrate. And then you see deities in union. This is documented very clearly by western people who have been initiated into these high practices.

Edited October 2, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

It's on pages 82-85.

 

"The most exceptional sign of Dzogpa Chenpo at death is the dissolving or transforming of the mortal body. As stated before, there are two main forms of dissolution of the mortal body: the attainment of the dissolution of the atoms or the most subtle particles (total dissolution) of the mortal body, popularly known as the attainment of the Rainbow Body, through training in Tregchod, and the attainment of the Light Body or the Great Transference through training in Thodgal."

 

Then there are also some other achievements. But in any case they are not the same.

 

And also TI, from the same pages:

"Jigmed Lingpa: ... The result is called the Fully Enlightened One (S. Samyaksambuddha)..."

Hi Pero

Thank you for the book suggestion: "The practice of Dzogchen". It looks pretty good.

Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on which way you look at it), I have received four books by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche today and I can hardly wait to read them. One, called "Heart Essence of the Khandro" is about "thirty signs and meanings from women lineage-holders" !!!

I was browsing one ot Namdak's books and I came accross a part where he says that if the body does not dissolve completely, it means that there are still parts of consciousness clinging to the mind.. And, he says that sometimes, a rainbow body can manifest as a powerful ghost.. Interesting stuff.

 

Samyaksambuddha: The thing about samyaksambuddha is, according to "The Practice of Dzogchen", is that this type of attainment, without a teacher etc is that it is something that arises upon death so it is not a complete definition of the 'goal of Dzogchen'.

 

As a result of the speed of attaining liberation, there are two types of (attainment at death). (a) In (Dzogpa Chenpo), in order to attain the cessation of sorrow, the primordial nature, and the city of sacred peace, one exhausts the contaminated (elements of the mortal) body. The result is called the Fully Enlightened One (S. Samyaksambuddha). ( Death with display of five signs: the lights, sounds, images,h gDungi and earth tremblings. It is called the attainment of Manifesting Enlightenment (mNgon-Par Sangs-rGyas-Pa, S. abhibuddha).

 

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo (p. 82). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

I think the goal of Dzogchen is to become fully enlightened before death (but I guess I'd take that one too if that is the case).

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

TI

 

You keep changing the subject from Vedanta to Kunlun to kriya and now raja yoga.

 

Is raja yoga going to lead to the same level as Dudjom Lingpa?

 

And as far as I know, only one tradition has terma.

 

Alwaysoff,

I am not changing the subject. These traditions all have their own version of rainbow body/light body/diamond body etc..

 

You know you can find just about anything in books. Here, it actually says that all Buddhist training leads to the same goal.

 

The teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo (or Dzogchen), the Great Perfection, are the innermost esoteric Buddhist training preserved and practiced to this day by the followers of the Nyingma (rNying-Ma) school of Tibet. The main emphasis of Dzogpa Chenpo is to attain and perfect the realization of the true nature of the mind, the Intrinsic Awareness (Rig-Pa), which is the Buddha Mind or Buddha-essence. Thereby one attains and perfects the realization of the true nature of all phenomenal existents, all of which are the same in their essence. According to Dzogpa Chenpo scriptures, all forms of Buddhist training lead to the same goal, the realization of the Intrinsic Awareness, which is taught in Dzogpa Chenpo; and further, that the essence of all the Buddhist teachings is completed in Dzogpa Chenpo meditation and its results. Many accomplished Dzogpa Chenpo meditators, in addition to their attainment of the utmost mental peace and enlightenment in this very lifetime, physically display signs of extraordinary accomplishments at the time of death. For example, they dissolve their gross bodies without remainder or transform their mortal bodies into subtle light bodies.

 

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo . Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

But that is not what your hero, Lopon Malcolm says.. In fact, he is calling realized gurus from other traditions liars..

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=130

For me, Ramana Maharshi is not important at all. He did not teach a path, he left no heir, and everybody who claims to be practicing in his tradition is a complete liar.

 

Pretty strong stuff, calling Papaji and Gangaji liars..

 

And I guess Malcolm is not aware that Ramana is still visiting people via the astral planes... Ramana is truly beyond space and time.. Perhaps one day when Malcolm evolves a little more he too will gain access to the astral planes and un-dead higher beings.

 

TI

[Pero]

Samyaksambuddha: The thing about samyaksambuddha is, according to "The Practice of Dzogchen", is that this type of attainment, without a teacher etc is that it is something that arises upon death so it is not a complete definition of the 'goal of Dzogchen'.

 

I think the goal of Dzogchen is to become fully enlightened before death (but I guess I'd take that one too if that is the case).

Haha well yeah, but that is a very very rare achievement. Rainbow body at death is already very difficult, in life much more so. I don't think there's any mention of "without a teacher". In Vajrayana and Dzogchen a teacher is implicit.

As far as I understand whoever realizes Rainbow body has realized Samyaksambuddha. The difference with Sravakayana idea of Samyaksambuddha is that for them a Samyaksambuddha is achieved by only one, someone who turns the wheel of dharma. But in Mahayana Samyaksambuddha is the goal and there can be many who achieve it but it doesn't mean all of those Buddhas then turn the wheel of dharma for the first time.

 

 

 

You know you can find just about anything in books. Here, it actually says that all Buddhist training leads to the same goal.

...

But that is not what your hero, Lopon Malcolm says.. In fact, he is calling realized gurus from other traditions liars.

But that quote is saying "Buddhist" traditions, I don't know if Malcolm disagrees with that (although root texts themselves can indeed say so). In any case, in that book Jigmed Lingpa says that the goal of common Mahayana and Vajrayana/Dzogchen is the same but the later works much faster.

[RongzomFan]

But that is not what your hero, Lopon Malcolm says.. In fact, he is calling realized gurus from other traditions liars..

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=130

 

 

Pretty strong stuff, calling Papaji and Gangaji liars..

 

I agree with Loppon Namdrol. They are liars.

[Jetsun]

This post by Geoff about Vedanta and Dzogchen sums it all up

 

Nobody questions that these are different paths for the thinking, judging mind. The question is whether both paths realize the natural state yet have a different conceptual structure to communicate it. Personally, based on my own experience and what was communicated to me by my gurus the answer is yes. Your mileage may vary.

[RongzomFan]

Except Vedanta does not realize the natural state (rainbow body)

[Jetsun]

Except Vedanta does not realize the natural state (rainbow body)

 

Realising the natural state does not equate with the rainbow body. The Buddha did not show signs of the rainbow body

[RongzomFan]

Realising the natural state does not equate with the rainbow body. The Buddha did not show signs of the rainbow body

 

Rainbow body means that you see everything is made of the five pure lights.

 

You can still have physical body and have rainbow body

 

Realising the natural state does not equate with the rainbow body.

 

For me it does

[Tibetan_Ice]

And as far as I know, only one tradition has terma.

 

Well Bon has their termas too. Bon is a separate tradition from Buddhism.

Do you recall when the Buddhists attacked the Bon? The Bon hid their manuscripts and spiritual libraries. Termas..

 

National Geographic's 'Secrets of Shangri-La: Quest for Sacred Caves'

 

http://www.pbs.org/programs/secrets-shangri-la/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another difference is that Buddhadharma is the only true system.

 

One spontaneously sees a seated Buddha in the highest Buddhist practices. And this is not made by the mind. The image evolves organically in the viewing substrate. And then you see deities in union. This is documented very clearly by western people who have been initiated into these high practices.

 

 

 

Yeah right. All is mind except when you see images arise from the substrate..

 

Give me one example, one reference. You say it is documented very clearly by western people.. well prove it.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Do you recall when the Buddhists attacked the Bon?

 

Is this from terma history and not actual history?

 

Even Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are not actual history.

 

David Germano notes that this distinction confuses even scholars.

 

Bon is a separate tradition from Buddhism.

 

No its not

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

Edited October 3, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

... I don't think there's any mention of "without a teacher". In Vajrayana and Dzogchen a teacher is implicit.

 

But that quote is saying "Buddhist" traditions, I don't know if Malcolm disagrees with that (although root texts themselves can indeed say so). In any case, in that book Jigmed Lingpa says that the goal of common Mahayana and Vajrayana/Dzogchen is the same but the later works much faster.

 

Hi Pero,

 

More on the "without a teacher aspect".

 

http://buddhahoodnava.blogspot.ca/

 

Types of Buddhahood

In Buddhism, three types of Buddha are recognized.^[1]

• Samyaksambuddha (Pali: sammasambuddha), often simply referred to as Buddha, one who has attained samyaksambodhi.
• Pratyekabuddhas (Pali: paccekabuddha)
• Śrāvakabuddha (Pali: sāvakabuddha)

The first two types of Buddha both achieve Nirvana through their own efforts, without a teacher to point out the Dharma. The term Savakabuddha does not occur in the Theravadin Pali Canon, but is mentioned in three Theravadin commentarial works, and refers to an enlightened disciple of the Buddha.

Samyaksambuddha

Samyaksambuddhas (Pali: sammasambuddha) gain Nirvana by their own efforts, and discover the Dhamma without having a teacher to point it out. They then lead others to enlightenment by teaching the Dhamma in a time or world where it has been forgotten or has not been taught before, because a Samyaksambuddha does not depend upon a tradition that stretches back to a previous Samyaksambuddha, but instead discovers the path anew.^[2] The historical Buddha, Gautama Buddha, is considered a Samyaksambuddha. See also the list of 28 sammasambuddhas.

Three variations can be distinguished in the way of achieving Samyaksambuddha-hood. With more wisdom (prajñādhika), with more effort (vīryādhika) or with more faith (śraddhādhika). Śākyamuni was a Prajñādhika (through more wisdom) Buddha. The next Buddha of this world, Maitreya (Pāli: Metteyya) will be a Vīryādhika (through more effort) Buddha.

Pratyekabuddha

Pratyekabuddhas (Pali: paccekabuddha) are similar to Samyaksambuddhas in that they attain Nirvāṇa without having a teacher. Unlike the Samyaksambuddha however, they do not teach the Dhamma that they have discovered. Thus, they also do not form a Saṅgha of disciples to carry on the teaching, since they do not teach in the first place.

In some works they are referred to as "silent Buddhas". Several comparatively new Buddhist scriptures (of later origin; after the Buddha's demise, like the Jātakas), show Pratyekabuddhas giving teachings. A Paccekabuddha can sometimes teach and admonish people, but these admonitions are only in reference to good and proper conduct (Pali: abhisamācārikasikkhā), not concerning Nirvana.

In some texts, they are described as 'one who understands the Dharma by his own efforts, but does not obtain omniscience nor mastery over the Fruits' (phalesu vasībhāvam).

Śrāvakabuddha

Śrāvaka (Skt.; Pali: sāvaka; means "hearer" or "follower") is a disciple of a Samyaksambuddha. An enlightened disciple is generally called an arahant (Noble One) or ariya-sāvaka (Noble Disciple). (These terms have slightly varied meanings but can both be used to describe the enlightened disciple.) The Theravadin commentary to the Udana uses the term sāvaka-buddha (Pali; Skt. śrāvakabuddha) to describe the enlightened disciple

Enlightened disciples attain Nirvana as do the two aforementioned types of Buddhas. After attaining enlightenment, disciples may also lead others to enlightenment. One can not become a disciple of a Buddha in a time or world where the teaching of the Buddha has been forgotten or has not been taught before, because this type of enlightenment is dependent on a tradition that stretches back to a Samyaksambuddha.

A rarely used word, anubuddha, was a term used by the Buddha in the Khuddakapatha for those who become buddhas after being given instruction.

In the Pali Canon itself, the first two are mentioned by the above names, while numerous examples of the third type occur, without that name. There is no mention of types of buddhas, though the word buddha does sometimes appear to be used in a broad sense covering all the above.

 

Well, for your second comment, I would suggest that if all "Buddhist teachings lead to the same goal" then Zen Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism (jhanas etc) must least to the same goal too. And all the other derivatives of the Buddhist lineage.. Malcolm clearly states that the slightest difference in understanding leads to an entirely different mountain top. I'd quote him but his site is down.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

There is no Vajrayana without a teacher.

 

And that info is wrong on so many levels.

Edited October 3, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

I agree with Loppon Namdrol. They are liars.

Alwaysoff,

 

Perhaps you and your hero "Malcolm" are plagued by the same hungry ghosts?

 

Anger feeders perhaps? Elitist scholarly digesters of banal human emotions? Troll juice?

 

CAUTION: DO NO FEED THE HUNGRY GHOSTS!

[RongzomFan]

CAUTION: DO NO FEED THE HUNGRY GHOSTS!

 

I don't worship hungry ghosts like Allah and Yahweh.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I recently finished reading The Mirror: Advice on Presence and Awareness by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the topic. It lays bare the practice and enlightens discussion and understanding of the path.

 

I like this quote -

"On the other hand, if our mind does not get distracted and oblivious but instead manages to gain self-control and maintain presence of its true State without being conditioned by illusion it becomes the essence of all the teachings and the root of all the paths. In fact, all of the phenomena of dualistic vision - nirvana and samsara, happiness and suffering, good and bad - arise solely from the mind and have no other origin. That is why it is said that a mind free of distraction is the basis of all paths and the deepest point of the practice."

 

If this one wants to complain about this quote and that one wants to attach himself to that image, fine. I will continue to try and let go of distraction. I suspect that Ramana Maharshi had managed to let go of distraction to a very thorough degree. I doubt those challenging his words or Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's choice of using them, have equalled either of their depths of inquiry. And I could be wrong. And it really doesn't matter.

 

And for anyone who does read the book, I'd recommend doing so as a stimulus to actually practice.

Continue to come back and read, then sit and let it work on you.

It is not nearly as valuable otherwise...

 

I thought I'd mention. The only part of "The Mirror" that I do not enjoy is the very last part in the commentary. There, Norbu explains that if one is mindful, he/she can drink as much alcohol as they want and not get drunk.

 

From "The Mirror" Namkhai Norbu, Translated from Tibetan into Italian and edited by Adriano Clemente.

 

For a Dzogchen practitioner awareness is really something very important. In many teachings there are rules, like forbidding drinking wine and eating meat. But this is not the spirit of Dzogchen, because one must enter into self-discipline. If I feel like drinking some wine, I can do so and nobody can forbid it, because I am a free man. But it is absolutely necessary that I maintain presence, in order not to harm anyone, not even my own stomach!

 

In the Hevajra tantra it is written that if a practioner gets drunk he will suffer in hell; but getting drunk means drinking without awareness. It is said that the great master Padmasambhava drank something like five hundred barrells of wine without getting the least bit drunk, and the mahasiddha Virupa did the same thing. If we have a similar capacity, then there are no problems, we can drink as much as we like. Otherwise, self-control is necessary. This is just one example of the infinite different situations a practitioner can find himself in. Without the presence of awareness we will find difficulties in applying the Dzochen teachings.

 

Why would any realized being want to drink wine or be a slave to hedonistic pleasures?

 

Here, Norbu is telling us that if "we have a similar capacity ... we can drink as much as we like"?

 

Does he truly believe that people want to be enlightened so that they can get drunk?

 

Buddha taught that we can become free from suffering by becoming free from desires. It seems Norbu is saying that we become enlightened so that we can fulfill our desires. Kind of a contradiction, and certainly a bad example to the rest of the mere mortals.

 

Perhaps I will throw the book out.

[Pero]

More on the "without a teacher aspect".

....

 

Right, those are the shravakayana ideas, but mahayana and particularly vajrayana doesn't see it that way as far as I know.

 

Well, for your second comment, I would suggest that if all "Buddhist teachings lead to the same goal" then Zen Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism (jhanas etc) must least to the same goal too. And all the other derivatives of the Buddhist lineage.. Malcolm clearly states that the slightest difference in understanding leads to an entirely different mountain top. I'd quote him but his site is down.

Theravada I don't think so. Mahayana schools (like Zen) yes. This is also what Jigme Lingpa says in that quote.

 

 

Why would any realized being want to drink wine or be a slave to hedonistic pleasures?

 

Here, Norbu is telling us that if "we have a similar capacity ... we can drink as much as we like"?

 

Does he truly believe that people want to be enlightened so that they can get drunk?

 

Buddha taught that we can become free from suffering by becoming free from desires. It seems Norbu is saying that we become enlightened so that we can fulfill our desires.

Nothing he said points to what you've concluded. What he is saying is that if we can't control ourselves, like with drinking, then we can take a vow never to drink. But if we can control ourselves then there is no problem having a glass of wine etc. Basically if you're mindful you'll notice when it's time to stop drinking. He gives the example of Virupa to show that unless we're something like him then we still have to worry about our limitations and conduct accordingly.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Nothing he said points to what you've concluded. What he is saying is that if we can't control ourselves, like with drinking, then we can take a vow never to drink. But if we can control ourselves then there is no problem having a glass of wine etc. Basically if you're mindful you'll notice when it's time to stop drinking. He gives the example of Virupa to show that unless we're something like him then we still have to worry about our limitations and conduct accordingly.

 

Hi Pero,

You say "Basically if you're mindful you'll notice when it's time to stop drinking."

 

That is not what is going down there. CN Norbu is implying that if he is in the state of 'awareness' his body will not get drunk, his stomach will not be hurt and he can drink as much as he'd like, just like Virupa. Yet CN Norbu claims that he is not enlightened, therefore, he is not in "The Natural State" 24 hours a day.

 

I remember Jax telling a story about how he and CN Norbu were having a beer and discussing how to present teachings to the masses.. That struck me as strange. Norbu drinks wine (and beer with Jax). I saw him do that in the movie "My Reincarnation".

 

I know there are some Tibetan Gurus who preach "Crazy Wisdom", like Chogyam Trungpa (cocaine and alcohol). And then there is Ösel Tendzin who transmitted aids to students.

 

Virupa was a realized being (to a great degree). I don't think CN Norbu is, otherwise he would have seen the effects from putting such detrimental statements in his book. He is influencing practitioners and sending the wrong message to the general public. The arrogant thought that being a free man entitles one to drink, even as a Dzogchen practitioner is sending the wrong message, don't you think? How many Dzogchen masters permit their students/disciples to drink?

 

But, you force me to do some typing now. Here is what Lopon Tenzin Namdak wrote about this issue.

 

From "Master of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud - Pith Instructions from the Experiential Transmission of Bonpo Dzogchen - Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak.

 

Over the years Yongdzin Rinpoche has persistently explained that students must realize the difference between "Dzogchen" and 'Dzogchen-pa' in order not to fall into the mistaken view of nihilism, the belief that since Dzogchen is the Supreme Source a Dzogchen practitioner doesn't need to engage in virtuous actions and so on, and can even manifest all sorts of erratic or negative conduct - 'anything goes'. This sort of view has nothing to do with the real Dzogchen. Dzogchen-pa is not Dzogchen, Dzogchen-pa is the practitioner who tries to purify his or her obscurations by following Dzogchen methods. Hence, at all times one must be aware of one's own level of realization.

 

Many of us have read or heard stories of realized Dzogchen yogis or Mahasiddhas who behaved very strangely and often seemingly incongruently, going beyond the social norms of 'acceptable'. Some may try to emulate this kind of behaviour or so called Crazy Wisdom without realizing that the underlying base behind it is the complete realization of the Natural State, the ability to remain in it at all times of day and night while engaging in any kind of activity of body, speech or mind. Until this capacity is reached, merely emulating the external facets of Crazy Wisdom conduct without realizing the inner background is extremely negative and lead to the accumulation of a vast store of negative karma rather than purification. A Dzogchen-pa, then, must soberly know his or her own capacity. If one is unable to remain in the Natural State at all times then one must perform virtuous actions, accumulate merits and use any methods needed in addition to practice sessions where on is immersed in the contemplation of the Natural State. Gradually, as one's capacity increases, one will naturally be able to integrate any kind of activity with one's realization of the Nature of Mind and so conduct will change automatically without any effort. This is called the 'view of the practitioner' and is a very important point to remember while reading this book.

 

 

 

TI

 

I don't worship hungry ghosts like Allah and Yahweh.

Hey Alwaysoff,

Your hero Malcolm apparently has some opinions about your opinions..

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&p=12242&hilit=alwayson#p12242

 

Malcolm wrote:

"Alwayson"

 

Definitely not alwayson.

 

So this must be one of those times, with a comment that is calling Allah and Yahweh hungry ghosts, that you are right off. Not on.

 

 

 

[ralis]

Some of this thread seems like religious moral posturing. If anyone has a problem with alcohol, then don't drink. But to say that Norbu should not drink is or is leading gullible students astray is nonsense. Students should be responsible adults and live their lives accordingly. Teachers are not parents! If one is projecting a parental need then be aware and deal with it.

[Pero]

Hi Pero,

You say "Basically if you're mindful you'll notice when it's time to stop drinking."

 

That is not what is going down there. CN Norbu is implying that if he is in the state of 'awareness' his body will not get drunk, his stomach will not be hurt and he can drink as much as he'd like, just like Virupa. Yet CN Norbu claims that he is not enlightened, therefore, he is not in "The Natural State" 24 hours a day.

 

I remember Jax telling a story about how he and CN Norbu were having a beer and discussing how to present teachings to the masses.. That struck me as strange. Norbu drinks wine (and beer with Jax). I saw him do that in the movie "My Reincarnation".

 

I know there are some Tibetan Gurus who preach "Crazy Wisdom", like Chogyam Trungpa (cocaine and alcohol). And then there is Ösel Tendzin who transmitted aids to students.

 

Virupa was a realized being (to a great degree). I don't think CN Norbu is, otherwise he would have seen the effects from putting such detrimental statements in his book. He is influencing practitioners and sending the wrong message to the general public. The arrogant thought that being a free man entitles one to drink, even as a Dzogchen practitioner is sending the wrong message, don't you think? How many Dzogchen masters permit their students/disciples to drink?

 

That is exactly what is going down here. He put no detrimental statements, you're seeing things that just aren't there. Having a glass of wine or more even is not crazy wisdom. Saying that unless you're like Virupa you shouldn't drink unless you're mindful so you won't get dead drunk and cause problems for yourself and others is the wrong message?

 

Dzogchen teachings have no rules about not drinking alcohol. So if a Dzogchen master does not permit his students to drink it's not because of Dzogchen teachings per se. That said I doubt you'll find many if any who don't allow it (except if their students are monks, that is a different matter).

 

There is nothing Loppon Tenzin Namdak says in that quote that is in opposition with Norbu Rinpoche's teachings. It's just your idea that drinking constitutes crazy wisdom, it doesn't. Honestly I can't believe I'm even having this conversation.

[RongzomFan]

Alcohol is part of Vajrayana. Just accept it.

 

Even during mystical dream experiences, tertons drink booze.

[Jeff]

Alcohol is part of Vajrayana. Just accept it.

 

Even during mystical dream experiences, tertons drink booze.

All types of alcohol? What about various types of drugs or plant based narcotics?

 

Thanks.