Ramana Quote does not belong in CN Norbu's latest book

[idiot_stimpy]

thank you dzogchungpa

[RongzomFan]

If the above two are not historical figures, then their existence is in question. After all much writing is attributed to both figures.

 

You are a sharp one.

[Paul]

You are a sharp one.

 

How do you know this? Citation?

[RongzomFan]

1. Sam van Schaik says the historical Padmasambhava just subjugated Samye, and got quickly chased out of Tibet. See his general history book Tibet: A History.

 

2. Ronald Davidson explicitly says the historical Vimalamitra "would have been astonished to find himself the focus of such a tradition." See his book Tibetan Renaissance.

 

So the Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra we know and appear to tertons are essentially ahistorical.

[Paul]

That's not what you said originally. They lived. What they really taught or not is lost to history.

[RongzomFan]

The Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra we know are not historical figures.

They are literary characters and/or wisdom manifestations of tertons.

[Paul]

1. Sam van Schaik says the historical Padmasambhava just subjugated Samye, and got quickly chased out of Tibet. See his general history book Tibet: A History.

 

2. Ronald Davidson explicitly says the historical Vimalamitra "would have been astonished to find himself the focus of such a tradition." See his book Tibetan Renaissance.

 

So the Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra we know and appear to tertons are essentially ahistorical.

The Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra we know are not historical figures.

 

 

They are literary characters and/or wisdom manifestations of tertons.

That's an oversimplification. They are historical figures who have been mythologized through the literature. Edited October 14, 2013 by Paul

[RongzomFan]

That's an oversimplification. They are historical figures who have been mythologized through the literature.

 

You are the one oversimplifying.

 

The Guru Rinpoche who appears to a terton is not the same guy who historically came to Samye.

[Paul]

 

You are the one oversimplifying.

 

The Guru Rinpoche who appears to a terton is not the same guy who historically came to Samye.

You said they were not historical figures. They were. The terma versions of the stories are either secret histories if you believe in the termas, or if you don't they present a mythologized history. But these were human beings who travelled in Tibet from India. I see you haven't changed. I guess that's comforting. As I get older I like it when things stay the same. You know one can also experience the power of the sadhana revealed in terma, and not have a fixed idea about the reality of the history. BTW, Donaldson's statement about Vimalamitra being surprised by the Nyingthig being attributed to him has no foundation, and is completely speculative. Why you chose to believe these white guys over those red faced demons is anyone's guess. It's a pattern, Whites think no one is mystical unless they're Asian or Indian and Indians don't believe anyone with a brown face. It's kind of pathetic. It's a pathology anyway.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Paul

[RongzomFan]

You said they were not historical figures. They were.

 

But they aren't.

 

There are 2 different Padmasambhavas.

 

There are 2 different Vimalamitras.

[Paul]

 

But they aren't.

 

There are 2 different Padmasambhavas.

 

 

There are 2 different Vimalamitras.

Maybe in your head. Anyway you've tacitly admitted they were historical. Why you insist on taking these positions is very weird. You don't seem like someone practicing Dzogchen. Why are you always talking about it and promoting it? It's negative. Edited October 14, 2013 by Paul

[RongzomFan]

Actually Sam van Schaik is the one who makes the distintion between Padmasambhava and Guru Rinpoche.

Take it up with him.

I don't promote dzogchen either. If someone else brings it up, I discuss it.

I didn't start this thread.

Edited October 14, 2013 by alwayson

[Paul]

Actually Sam van Schaik is the one who makes the distintion between Padmasambhava and Guru Rinpoche.Take it up with him.I don't promote dzogchen either. If someone else brings it up, I discuss it.I didn't start this thread.

Perhaps you misunderstood. He's saying they started using this term later once the termas started rolling out. But the reference is to the guy who helped at Samye. Then he says these termas give otherwise unknown histories of this guy's activities which are often fantastical. That still doesn't mean these things didn't happen. And it certainly doesn't mean it was someone else who did them. A skeptic would say these are fictional stories about a real person. Why you want to say they were two different people is too weird. Oh well you still cray.

 

And I spent $45 to tell you that.

[Paul]

What I find fascinating to think about is the extent to which tantra arose from a knock off of the medieval Indian coronation ceremony and the termas mocked up Tibetan funerary rights of aristocratic clansmen. If this were to have started up here there would have to be a bicameral congress of bodhisattvas, etc. lol.

[RongzomFan]

That still doesn't mean these things didn't happen.

 

Sam van Schaik on Padmasambhava:

 

"His sojourn in Tibet had been BRIEF....."

 

The historic Padmasambhava did not travel the countryside subjugating sites or whatever the termas say.

[Paul]

Sam van Schaik on Padmasambhava:

 

"His sojourn in Tibet had been BRIEF....."

 

The historic Padmasambhava did not travel the countryside subjugating sites or whatever the termas say.

 

For all he knows. Who really knows what P daddy did when no one was looking? But since white man said it, must be so. You do know the difference between opinion and fact? That might be something covered in fourth grade.

[RongzomFan]

I don't need to believe in a historic Padmasambhava to believe in Guru Rinpoche.

 

Guru Rinpoche that appears to tertons is obviously some sort of emanation, or a manifestation of the terton's own wisdom.

[Paul]

I don't need to believe in a historic Padmasambhava to believe in Guru Rinpoche.

 

Guru Rinpoche that appears to tertons is obviously some sort of emanation, or a manifestation of the terton's own wisdom.

 

It's not obvious. That's your idea. If someone did a history of me there would be a huge gap between what I did publicly and what I did secretly. Only a psychic could know what I did privately. I believe the masters have that power. In my private time with masters this was demonstrated conclusively to me. Public records only reveal the barest details.

[RongzomFan]

I believe the masters have that power.

 

I'm saying the same thing. The Guru Rinpoche who appears to the tertons, is the one I have faith in.

[Paul]

But I happen to agree the Tibetans and Indians are basically all conniving liars. Yet, despite the lies they lead to awakening. Pretty wild and amazing. ChNN's always going on about the essence of the teachings. When this line of thought is taken all the way, that itself is an awakening. Our world is a pack of lies after all.

[Paul]

They're lies by psychics.

 

Which have a particularly realistic feel.

[Apech]

They're lies by psychics.

 

Which have a particularly realistic feel.

 

 

They play with your head no doubt.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You said they were not historical figures. They were. The terma versions of the stories are either secret histories if you believe in the termas, or if you don't they present a mythologized history. But these were human beings who travelled in Tibet from India. I see you haven't changed. I guess that's comforting. As I get older I like it when things stay the same. You know one can also experience the power of the sadhana revealed in terma, and not have a fixed idea about the reality of the history. BTW, Donaldson's statement about Vimalamitra being surprised by the Nyingthig being attributed to him has no foundation, and is completely speculative. Why you chose to believe these white guys over those red faced demons is anyone's guess. It's a pattern, Whites think no one is mystical unless they're Asian or Indian and Indians don't believe anyone with a brown face. It's kind of pathetic. It's a pathology anyway.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31912-ramana-quote-does-not-belong-in-cn-norbus-latest-book/?p=486072

 

For all he knows. Who really knows what P daddy did when no one was looking? But since white man said it, must be so. You do know the difference between opinion and fact? That might be something covered in fourth grade.

 

 

 

I find your statements here racist and highly offensive.

[RongzomFan]

I find your statements here racist and highly offensive.

 

Then report him.

 

Don't start drama.

[Protector]

Paul, turn down the racism or we're gonna have a problem

 

watchiiiiiiiiing