Quick Zhuangzi question

[Rara]

I've never read Zhuangzi cover to cover....only extracts in various books. So I began yesterday and wow, I need a bit of context! Or your opinions even.

 

Firstly, did he actually study/explore Lao Tzu and TTC or does he just so happen to have a naturally similar vibe?

 

The writing style...it seems inconsistent. As in, more obvious that it's written by a collective of people...some stories about him, and other stories directly from him. Either that or he's talking in the 3rd person for some reason for some of it...

 

Are these parables/myths? Or are these said to be actual events and encounters?

 

Answer my three questions and there is a grand prize

[Marblehead]

Hi Rara,

 

I'll do my best but you can give the prize to someone in need.

 

Chuang Tzu does speak of Lao Tzu and also of the TTC. Where they exist is not openly obvious so you actually have to look for them.

 

It is said by many scolars that the Inner Chapters are from his mind and hand, the Outer Chapters from his disciples, and the Miscellaneous Chapters and the Conversations basically a collection of works from various authors.

 

Most of the Chapters are fill with stories, parablesm and myths used as vehicles in presenting his concepts. But he does oftentimes speak in the first person as well. The Butterfly story is a classic example.

 

But I wouldn't want to guess how many of the proper names for people were actually people he knew or if nearly all of them were made up. However, he does refer to people who actually lived during his time or a while before him.

 

Have fun with your reading.

[Rara]

Thanks MH.

 

I ended up finding a good Youtube discussion that pretty much said this and given enough time, I probably would have realised this without posting this thread haha.

 

I like how it is almost like a religious text in this respect, with its parables and messages etc. so different to TTC yet as far as style goes yet still very close to Lao Tzu's summaries. Cooooool!

[Marblehead]

Thanks MH.

 

I ended up finding a good Youtube discussion that pretty much said this and given enough time, I probably would have realised this without posting this thread haha.

 

I like how it is almost like a religious text in this respect, with its parables and messages etc. so different to TTC yet as far as style goes yet still very close to Lao Tzu's summaries. Cooooool!

Yeah, I have no doubt that after a second reading you would have experienced a wonderous self-awareness.

 

As I have mentioned before, my favorite translation of the entire Chuang Tzu is Burton Watson's. However, Lin Yutang does a really beautiful job with his, especially the inner chapters. Such beautiful word usage!

 

And true, at first glance, it seems like The Chuang Tzu has nothing to do with the TTC. But in reality nearly everything in the TTC is spoken to in The Chuang Tzu. Chuang Tzu was an Anarchist so he wasn't nearly as supportive of government as was Lao Tzu. Also Chuang Tzu was a mystic so we see a lot of things in The Chuang Tzu that were not in the TTC.

 

And yes, it was shortly after Chuang Tzu's death the Religious Taoism was established. His philosophy was open-minded enough to allow this to happen.

 

Enjoy your reading.

[Rara]

Will check the editions as I'm going off an app on my phone until my birthday (when I get someone to buy me a good version haha)

 

Thanks for that extra context. I think very soon I'm gonna be caving into full anarchy myself . I keep trying to work with the system but it's all total bs to me lol

[Stosh]

What system is BS?

(as you are seeing it to be)

 

You may find the wikipedia article on 'Eudaimonia' interesting.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Stosh

[Rara]

Ok lol...I will check that out.

 

Do you not find that we are Taoists living in a Confucianist world?

[Stosh]

Ok lol...I will check that out.

 

Do you not find that we are Taoists living in a Confucianist world?

Though I know what you mean .. I'd rather address it as follows ,, for now .

 

No, we're just people trying as best we can, to live a decent life, in the best system we collectively could come up with.

 

The labels that folks apply to us, or the ones we apply to ourselves, tend to make us presuppose that we are supposed to act a certain way , or have expectations that things are always going to be a certain way, that our situation is to run upstream and that it shouldnt be..

No one promised us a rose garden , The Learner had some humorous posts which present the picture better than I am doing , so I also point you to read that stuff , its pretty recent. Maybe search for "monkey mind" here.

[Rara]

I will indeed. And yes, no one promised a rose garden...but that's not to say that we can't get the rose garden if that's what we want...

 

Then again, this is desire...

 

...but if we want, then we want.

 

If we're hungry, we eat...

 

Maybe this is for another thread. hmmmmm

[Stosh]

 

Its your thread.

 

But to address that post here anyway,

 

Yeah there is wanting , but , it being your subjective state

your wanting has a component of fungibility.

This is one reason to be saying that something is illusion.

 

One might say something like , where is your hunger located?

Is your hunger visible ?

are you hungry in sleep?

How legit is your hunger , or does it have other components

such as other desires and fears mixed up with it?

 

Is it a 'good' or 'bad' thing to have needs and wants.

They bring motivation do they not? and is not motivation

a likeable thing? , or does it all boil down to unsatisfied desires?

rather than a healthy motivation of living?

Is satisfying these things the purpose of a life ?

does it define- if a life is lived well ?

Edited October 3, 2013 by Stosh

[Rara]

See how I hesitate? See how I procrastinate?

 

Still overcoming myself.

[Stosh]

I do the same sometimes , a thing I got from Wu wei , when I wish to get unstuck ,,

is to consider all my motivations of equal importance , all my "druthers" equally valid.

 

Why am I balking ? who cares , it is a good lesson gone bad , most likely.

Is it really so important to not get the dishes washed?

and so forth.

 

Im tossing quite a lot at you fast , I know.

dont sweat it.

[Rara]

That's fine, it's all relative and will certainly help!

 

And yes, very in tune with you on how we share such similar mind processes at times.

 

Now I like to tell myself how unimportant getting dishes washed is. So why do I end up doing them daily anyway?!

 

My main issues is cooking. Because I have always had self-pride in doing the "Taoist" thing of eating cheap and healthy, it IS becoming a chore. Therefore leading to dissatisfaction. Time to get takeout pizza?

[Marblehead]

Yes, pizza is good food to eat prior to meditating. It helps put you in the mood.

 

I keep my dishes washed because of I don't little sugar ants will come in the window above the sink and I don't like that. (I rarely spray so all kinds of things are living outside my house. As long as they stay outside I don't have a problem. That means I have to wash the dishes as soon as I put them in the sink.)

 

We can't wu wei all the time. Some things need be done while the problems are small and easily attended to.

[Stosh]

That's fine, it's all relative and will certainly help!And yes, very in tune with you on how we share such similar mind processes at times.Now I like to tell myself how unimportant getting dishes washed is. So why do I end up doing them daily anyway?!My main issues is cooking. Because I have always had self-pride in doing the "Taoist" thing of eating cheap and healthy, it IS becoming a chore. Therefore leading to dissatisfaction. Time to get takeout pizza?

Didn't you say ou procrastinate ? I am just picking something that I procrastinate about. But if you are really suffering from misplaced pride.. stop being silly and order out. ! Nobody really gives a c--- so you aren't impressing anyone anyway

[PLB]

I won't be able to answer any of your questions.

The element I most cling to in my Zhuangzi reading is the emphasis on how little one can say about what is happening. There is a critique of logical explanation here that is not a simple rejection of the activity. He is underlining a way we talk that is subtle. He doesn't want us to sum it up because that would be like the talking he wants to put under question.

He is like Kant in his humility regarding what can be proven, explained, or what have you. But he clearly sees the prize and wants others to see it too.

For me, he is the Sufu closest to what I strive to follow.

[Marblehead]

For me, he is the Sufu closest to what I strive to follow.

Me too. But be aware, the goal is very lofty and we are going to mess up often. This is why he tells us to be unconcerned with success and failure. And as we walk, one step at a time.

[Stosh]

I won't be able to answer any of your questions.The element I most cling to in my Zhuangzi reading is the emphasis on how little one can say about what is happening. There is a critique of logical explanation here that is not a simple rejection of the activity. He is underlining a way we talk that is subtle. He doesn't want us to sum it up because that would be like the talking he wants to put under question.He is like Kant in his humility regarding what can be proven, explained, or what have you. But he clearly sees the prize and wants others to see it too.For me, he is the Sufu closest to what I strive to follow.

To me it seems that he is trying to explain some things which are counterintuitive. If he just blurts it out without the finery. then the reader will quickly dismiss the points validity . It amounts to a careful presentation, which I wouldn't have the patience to copy. Imo . I just explain it straight as I see it and its not up to me to make it sweeter. He is a polished speaker.

[Marblehead]

I just explain it straight as I see it and its not up to me to make it sweeter. He is a polished speaker.

Yes, you do that. But then, he is earning money doing his thing and you are not. Go figure. Hehehe.

[PLB]

Very good point, Stosh

He is not heard if not in the context of a careful balancing act that was telling other people he knew where he was..

Edited October 6, 2013 by PLB

[Stosh]

Very good point, StoshHe is not heard if not in the context of a careful balancing act that was telling other people he knew where he was..

Absolutely Sir! His mom didn't raise no fool. I've been tossing an idea around..around four hundred bc and over a few centuries, it seems like the was a flowering in the rational investigation of the human experience in eurasia. After which, there was a return to the old way of thinkingamong the common people - which lasted another twelve centuries..till the renaissance.

Any comment? Refutation ?

Edited October 6, 2013 by Stosh

[PLB]

Absolutely Sir! His mom didn't raise no fool. I've been tossing an idea around..around four hundred bc and over a few centuries, it seems like the was a flowering in the rational investigation of the human experience in eurasia. After which, there was a return to the old way of thinkingamong the common people - which lasted another twelve centuries..till the renaissance.

Any comment? Refutation ?

 

No refutation.

He clearly challenged the logic of explanation that was popular at the time and history has not recorded any takers (that I know of. I don't know much). Maybe there was a dinner party we weren't invited to where someone kicked his butt. I tend to doubt it. He was really clear and offered the oppurtunity to be denounced.

When you say the renaissance, I get the western connection and there are interesting paralells. But in terms of what was happening in China, I think the flower is what was said happened in the early twentieth century before the Revolution buried it with all those other things they buried.

Edited October 7, 2013 by PLB

[Stosh]

Good point about the effect of communism in the east.

I wasn't dividing the east from west -intentionally.

Because I'm seeing similarities amongst the teachings

of Gautama Lao Chuang Confucius the Stoics of that time..

And then again in folks like Galileo Neitzche Kant etc.

Was? there a renaissance thing in China ?

I thought they went straight from Feudalism to Socialism ,

Having committed to a plan of isolationism.

BUT, yes, I am mixing apples with oranges, so you might not

consider it valid.

 

 

 

[Rara]

All three of those posts have really helped with the reading!

 

PS, I enjoyed some fried chicken on Saturday

[Stosh]

No refutation.He clearly challenged the logic of explanation that was popular at the time and history has not recorded any takers (that I know of. I don't know much). Maybe there was a dinner party we weren't invited to where someone kicked his butt. I tend to doubt it. He was really clear and offered the oppurtunity to be denounced.When you say the renaissance, I get the western connection and there are interesting paralells. But in terms of what was happening in China, I think the flower is what was said happened in the early twentieth century before the Revolution buried it with all those other things they buried.

After a nights sleep maybe I am understanding you correctly that you might include Lenin and Mao on the list of modern reformers. Wow interesting!

 

All three of those posts have really helped with the reading!PS, I enjoyed some fried chicken on Saturday

I thought you were procrastinating. You've been given an awful lot to consider but haven't yet given thorough indication one way or another on any of it.Sarcasm about a temporarily derailment in a thread you aren't engaged in mentally seems unnecessary.You asked the short question got an answer, got more than that! I don't see what your beef should be .

Each place I put a question mark , was an invitation. Each suggested reading an opportunity for a fresh direction.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Stosh