perspectives on suicide

[silent thunder]

So my intended meditation these last few days has been hijacked by the concept of suicide.

It wasn't intentional, it just came with inertia, so I surrendered.

 

I was raised christian and their view is well established and pretty clear.

I'm really intrigued to see how it's perceived around here: specifically among the variety of buddhists, taoists and non-ists.

 

I oscillate between a view that it's a cop-out and any lessons skipped will be retaught until adapted; and a view where I sense it can be a way of calling the Illusion's bluff and if done skillfully, a stepping stone.

 

Right to die, assisted, isolated, violent, graceful, forewarned, surprise, note, no note...

 

 

[thelerner]

In our culture suicide can be real dick move to friends and family. Despite whatever rationalizing a person makes it often causes massive pain and lasting suffering to those close, who don't share ones transcendentalist views. Few emotional events can ever be as wounding to a parent. And if you go by the rules of karma, pain given will ultimately be pain reflected (something like that).

 

I understand the happily I live, happily I die philosophy, but it can too easy to call it quits when your at a trough in life. In despair people forget things change, life can get better. Cutting off new experiences, lessons and joys. In hopes for something that might not come.

 

It may be different for the elderly and those in chronic pain, but many of the same concepts apply.

[silent thunder]

In our culture suicide can be real dick move to friends and family. Despite whatever rationalizing a person makes it often causes massive pain and lasting suffering to those close, who don't share ones transcendentalist views. Few emotional events can ever be as wounding to a parent. And if you go by the rules of karma, pain given will ultimately be pain reflected (something like that).

 

I understand the happily I live, happily I die philosophy, but it can too easy to call it quits when your at a trough in life. In despair people forget things change, life can get better. Cutting off new experiences, lessons and joys. In hopes for something that might not come.

 

It may be different for the elderly and those in chronic pain, but many of the same concepts apply.

 

Suicide as the ultimate in short-sightedness... in the young certainly, but as you say, the elderly, infirm... so many facets to consider.

[BaguaKicksAss]

BaguaKicksAss-ism (and the esoteric teachings I have received) states that if you go and commit suicide then your shade/ego wanders around the earth miserable not quite realizing their dead, going slowly more and more insane, for centuries...

 

If you are curious, read the local cemetery logs for someone who committed suicide, then go visit their grave and have a chat... hypothetically I mean, I don't actually recommend this .

In our culture suicide can be real dick move to friends and family. Despite whatever rationalizing a person makes it often causes massive pain and lasting suffering to those close, who don't share ones transcendentalist views. Few emotional events can ever be as wounding to a parent. And if you go by the rules of karma, pain given will ultimately be pain reflected (something like that).

 

I understand the happily I live, happily I die philosophy, but it can too easy to call it quits when your at a trough in life. In despair people forget things change, life can get better. Cutting off new experiences, lessons and joys. In hopes for something that might not come.

 

It may be different for the elderly and those in chronic pain, but many of the same concepts apply.

 

Hmmm, while I fully respect the right of those in severe chronic pain to be able to do the assisted suicide thing... it may also be short sited, as that can change with healing/qigong.

[Flolfolil]

i have zero experiential evidence to support any kind of afterlife, or feeling of regret after one dies

 

i'm in the right-to-die crowd

[hydrogen]

I think it's common to have suicide thoughts in the spritual quest. Don't the peaceful lovely budhists insist you kill your own ego. Isn't that suicide?

 

Didn't Jesus commit passive suicide? He knew that people out there to get him. He walked into his death.

 

It's better be peaceful dead than sad alive.

 

I think there are three body inside one person. if one body is out of sync with the rest, suicide thoughts would be put into your head. You can safely "kill" the old "self" while alive. I learned it from the "Secret of the Golden Flower". You need to reset yourself to download new program in another word.

[liminal_luke]

I don't begrudge the terminally ill and in pain the right to die with dignity on their own terms. Mostly though I think suicide is a bad move. My dad killed himself and I just recently wrote about some of my feelings. I've been wanting to share my writing more recently so here goes. It's pretty personal and confessional so fair warning to people who don't like that kind of thing...

 

 

 

I need to write about rage. My father’s tongue used to curl ominously over his upper lip whenever he was overcome with fury, something that happened often and without warning. I don’t remember much really. There was that time he went to hit mom, and instead put his fist through the pantry door. We taped a Christmas card over the hole rather than get it fixed. He knew how to skirt the edge of domestic violence without ever actually going over the line. Dad was proud of his status as a non-batterer. It was the last thing he said to mom before blowing his brains out: “Remember, I never hit you.”

 

Killing yourself is murder too. You don’t hurt only yourself. It’s twenty years later, and I’m still pretty messed up about it. Maybe the hardest part is my suspicion that he did it for me. He knew I’d be happy to see him gone, and I was. He shot himself so I wouldn’t have to. Or maybe it’s hard because I love and hate him in equal measure, and I don’t know how to disentangle my jumbled feelings.

 

Terrorized children turn into emotionally handicapped adults. I wish I was better at relationships. I wish I could believe my boyfriend loves me—because he does. I wish I was softer, more forgiving of his foibles, less angry. I wish love felt safe.

[silent thunder]

Wow liminal... thank you for sharing.

*deep bow*

[little horse]

Hey Luke.

I'd like to second the thanks and the bow for your honesty.

Not an easy thing to talk about.

If it's any help you're definitely not alone.

You're not responsible for your fathers actions, especially as a child. His decision alone and more than likely one taken with or without you being around. He certainly didn't do it for you or he would have sought help for his anger and learnt to be a good father instead.

I know saying that doesn't necessarily make much of a difference because, unfortunately, that sort of guilt sticks like glue.

But you are still that beautiful and innocent child you once were. One that can love and be loved and certainly one that deserves forgiveness.

Ooops, I'm sounding like Oprah.

My Grandmother, Mother and Brother all suicided (a family trait), so I understand what it's like to carry that burden on your shoulders. We both know carrying that shit around is useless and to a great degree unwarranted.

A friend of mine gave me an exercise to do. When you are relaxed in bed, close your eyes and imagine your father sitting in front of you. Say all the things you never got the opportunity to say. I did it by writing a letter which I never sent.

Oh dear, i am Oprah.

Big Huggs.

Marc.

[little horse]

There is a thought that chronic physical pain is a more valid reason to suicide than chronic emotional pain.

Some people wake up every day of their lives fighting and struggling with severe emotional pain and trauma.

It takes an incredible amount of energy and effort to keep going. To keep fighting. To see the happiness and beauty in life.

Not everyone has the information you people have or the ability and knowledge to seek it out.

For me there is always light at the end of the tunnel, but for others the tunnel is way too long.

I had a huge avocado tree in my garden once. I waited all winter, like a child waiting for christmas, to fill my belly. All that tree ended up producing was one small avocado right at the very top. I said to a Japanese friend, with some disappointment, look at that, such a big tree and only one avocado. She said, yes Marc you have one beautiful little avocado. I put that thought into my bag and take it out to look at whenever life seems too difficult.

I don't necessarily agree with suicide, but can understand it and try not to pass judgment on those that see it as their only remaining option.

There was a nice story in a Castaneda book. Castaneda and Don Juan are walking through a park chatting. Castaneda sees a snail walking across the path so he picks it up and places it on the grass the other side of the path. Don Juan says why did you do that. Castaneda says, to stop it being stepped on and save it's life. Don Juan says, yes, but you have changed it's destiny. Who are you to do that.

Who's to know where our destinies lie.

 

Sorry if I am not doing the forum thing correctly, not used to it. Bit of a hermit.

 

There was mention of the 'hungry ghost' idea of the soul wandering around in between worlds in torment.

Is there a Taoist ritual to put these souls to rest ?

 

Love to all.

Marc.

 

Here's a picture of a nice fluffy cat to lighten the load of a rather grim topic.

He he !

 

[silent thunder]

...

I don't necessarily agree with suicide, but can understand it and try not to pass judgment on those that see it as their only remaining option.

There was a nice story in a Castaneda book. Castaneda and Don Juan are walking through a park chatting. Castaneda sees a snail walking across the path so he picks it up and places it on the grass the other side of the path. Don Juan says why did you do that. Castaneda says, to stop it being stepped on and save it's life. Don Juan says, yes, but you have changed it's destiny. Who are you to do that. ...

 

Destiny is such a great koan to ponder. It's such a thick and sticky topic.

Destiny for me, connotes obligation, or compliance, expectation, impotence even... The closest I can come to having a working model of destiny in my life, is to view the forces I cannot control as a river whose flow will carry me where it leads, no matter what action I might take, or thought I might have. If aware enough, I can swim with or against the flow, float along, or take myself out. Everything else is reliant upon conditions and reactions.

 

Yet if it were destiny not to suicide, how could we possess the awareness of and capability to completely control the means of our own death?

 

Mother Octopii suicide when they give birth at age two or so.

Upon laying their eggs, they guard them until they hatch, fasting until they die.

I'm reminded too of the Buddhist tradition of self immolation and self mummification.

Both by my view are noble in their own way, from a certain perspective.

 

I guess I'm straying into judgement of the 'honorability' of the process.

Hard to see the honor in a human father leaving his family, yet the octopus mom, is to me, a hallmark of honor.

As with everything I do as a human, my perspective is always there, filtering everything. Annoying and entertaining.

 

Tough topic.

Thanks for the deeply personal, honest responses.

humbling...

[doc benway]

Beautiful post liminal_luke.

Suicide is a very complex issue for me and I don't claim to have it figured out.

My current feeling is that it's not my role or privilege to end life intentionally, even my own.

Life has so much potential and is such a rare and precious opportunity, I feel it is a terrible waste to end it.

Life is so far beyond my ability to understand or predict, I feel that I have no right to end it.

That said, there are situations in which I would not object to assisted suicide, and there may come a time when my feelings are different but that's what occurs to me at this moment.