Tip on how to do enquiry

[RongzomFan]

I am surprised you are so down on enquiry though when Dzogchen texts like "The Flight of the Garuda" are full of it

Its there, buts its extremely preliminary.

 

And what you quoted is more like rushan i.e. recognizing the conceptualizing mind.

Ramana never taught anything similar to what you quoted.

Edited October 17, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Ramana focuses more on the "I" thought rather than analysing the different parts like Candrakirti.

 

I only quoted a bit of Candrakirti. You can read the rest in Madhyamakavatara.

[RongzomFan]

The whole Madhyamakavatara is about I thought

[johndoe2012]

I found one of the mahamudra manuals very helpful for me.

 

Also in my experience the "thing" that wants to wake up is more a bodily / brain thing that can't handle the now which creates resistance and this resistance is what one wants to get rid of.

[amoyaan]

I found one of the mahamudra manuals very helpful for me.

 

Also in my experience the "thing" that wants to wake up is more a bodily / brain thing that can't handle the now which creates resistance and this resistance is what one wants to get rid of.

 

Hey Chris, how are you doing? This is really interesting ... I've been aware of both the aspect of consciousness that has a deep drive to 'wake up' and the aspect that has a resistance to it, that can't abide being comfortable in the present moment without distractions and stuff. It's interesting to witness these dual mechanisms. Can you say any more about this?

[Boy]

...

Edited January 15, 2014 by Boy

[Sahaj Nath]

we are not Ramana Maharshi. he awakened within a matter of minutes of applying self-inquiry. this is one of the most difficult paths with a tremendously HIGH rate of failure.

 

it takes a very special quality of mind to awaken via self-inquiry. and we here in the west have a HUGE problem with believing we're special. self deception is so easy. false consciousness is so easy. the real genius of the Matrix is in how it has everyone believing that they can be Neo. that they ARE Neo, in fact.

 

the truth of the matter is, there's no question to ask, and there's nothing to look for. to ask any question is to ask the wrong question. it may very well be different within the Indian culture, but here in the West, this is the truth. meditating on koans of another culture is just as ridiculous.

 

 

so many people will waste entire lifetimes engaged in what they've determined to be a shortcut.

[doc benway]

it takes a very special quality of mind to awaken via self-inquiry. 

 

I would suggest that it takes a very special quality of mind to awaken.

 

I suspect that spending a month in skillful 'self-inquiry' is more likely to move one along the path than most other activities one can engage in.

 

Although sometimes I wonder if anything we do really has any effect at all.... or is it simply a matter of karma, blessing, or delusion?

[Jetsun]

The approach Adyashanti takes to enquiry is to drop your enquiry question in through the top of your head and down into being, a bit like dropping a stone into a pool of water, that way it is less likely to become a purely mental exercise. You could use almost any question and there may be a question which is burning for you which isn't the classic "who am I?".

 

Adyashanti's wife says she worked with the enquiry "what is silence?" for a year and a half and it proved to be instrumental in her awakening. It was combined with silent zazen type meditation and retreats but the enquiry aspect is considered the masculine element of their path where you zero in on the essence, whereas the meditation is the feminine where you allow everything to unfold and be as it is. From what I can see this two pronged approach seems to be quite effective and has led to a lot of peoples awakenings.

 

Another teacher I worked with says that enquiry is only really going to be effective if you are "ripe" and that much of your karmic baggage has been exhausted and you are at the doorway of awakening. Enquiry is like knocking on the door, yet whether the door opens or not has nothing to do with you and isn't up to you, it is up to grace or divinity, yet knocking may improve the chance of it opening, but is no guarantee.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Jetsun

[forestofclarity]

A lot of people correlate self-enquiry with Ramana Maharshi, but truthfully self-enquiry had been around for centuries before him. For instance, Nisargadatta's teacher, Siddharameshwar Maharaj, took a different approach--- his "bird's eye" enquiry went through the various bodies or koshas--- which is one of many prakriyas available. Another which traced back to the Mandukya Upanishad uses the four states: waking, dreaming, deep sleep, and turiya. 

 

There is actually a whole body of techniques available. 

[9th]

It is also considered a maturation of other meditations involving an object of concentration - like a mantra, altar, painting, etc. etc.  Once concentration is developed sufficiently, it is turned away from the object of meditation and towards the idea of "I".  In this way, samadhi is not considered a goal in itself, but a step along the way.  It is akin to the buddhist practice of vipassana.

 

Inquisitiveness in general is a great aid to this practice - if you are driven to uncover mysteries, you are well suited to this.  If you are driven to sing songs and hold hands, it may not be as fruitful.

 

The key is to continually deepen the realization of how much the thought of "I am" affects the experience of reality - until that thought process itself is overturned by seeing it in its most naked and profound implications.

[Sahaj Nath]

i'm gonna leave most of that alone and focus on the one key area that sort of underlies the reason for my commenting in this thread to begin with.

 

 

 

Inquisitiveness in general is a great aid to this practice - if you are driven to uncover mysteries, you are well suited to this.  If you are driven to sing songs and hold hands, it may not be as fruitful.

 

--if it only it were so easy. we should have glut of enlightened beings walking around here in the West, then. it's not so much that you're wrong completely, but that honest self-assessment is in short supply. this is one of those areas where IQ matters. [and PLEASE don't use this as an opportunity to debate standardized testing!]

 

as an exaggerated example (by which i mean the example is true, but the truth of it is not limited to this extreme case), i once had an inquisitive student who was 32 years old, but he processed at the level of maybe a 7th or 8th grader. he wasn't "special needs" or anything, but he did possess below-average intelligence. he loved all things mystical and scientific, but he didn't have a talent for either. and guess what he thought his fast track to enlightenment would be? HINT: it wasn't bhakti.

 

cognitive capacity isn't simply a matter of inquisitiveness, but cognition is ESSENTIAL to the efficacy of self-inquiry.

 

everyone believes they're on the level, or that it's just a matter of preference. and they will go on believing these things, i guess. so maybe there's no point in discussing it any further.  

[forestofclarity]

I don't agree with this. 

 

I don't think jnana yoga requires a high degree of intelligence if it is unfolded by a good teacher. The examples are well known and the techniques are not hard. If one can understand the difference between a rope mistaken for a snake, or a pot and clay, then that is enough. For example, one common technique is watching objects come and go, but seeing that you do not come and go. I think a middle school level intelligence could handle that.

 

 

 

--if it only it were so easy. we should have glut of enlightened beings walking around here in the West, then. it's not so much that you're wrong completely, but that honest self-assessment is in short supply. this is one of those areas where IQ matters. [and PLEASE don't use this as an opportunity to debate standardized testing!]

 

as an exaggerated example (by which i mean the example is true, but the truth of it is not limited to this extreme case), i once had an inquisitive student who was 32 years old, but he processed at the level of maybe a 7th or 8th grader. he wasn't "special needs" or anything, but he did possess below-average intelligence. he loved all things mystical and scientific, but he didn't have a talent for either. and guess what he thought his fast track to enlightenment would be? HINT: it wasn't bhakti.

[Jetsun]

"Keep chasing the I and with any luck you'll end up disappearing up your own ass" - Wayne Liquorman

 

Basically enquiry is just examining what is true, especially on the level of our own beliefs so it can be a gradual unravelling of the mind like with the work of Byron Katie rather than a direct penetration into the "I", which isn't a difficult process but few people are willing unless they are suffering because who wants to see that they are wrong or see that they are living a lie? people would rather do anything to cover up their own untruths because to let go of them can be perceived as a loss and can even be perceived to threaten their existence.

 

In some ways a simple person is going to have an easier time with enquiry because their mind wont have woven a great deal of elaborate sophisticated concepts and thoughts around their life and identity, so I don't think it has to do with IQ as much as it is to do with being willing and people are only usually really willing when they have nowhere else to go, or they are suffering too much, or they have basically come to an end and the common delusions of life are no longer very convincing, or they have a really deep inner heart longing for the truth.  

Edited March 9, 2015 by Jetsun

[Sahaj Nath]

"Keep chasing the I and with any luck you'll end up disappearing up your own ass" - Wayne Liquorman

 

Basically enquiry is just examining what is true, especially on the level of our own beliefs so it can be a gradual unravelling of the mind like with the work of Byron Katie rather than a direct penetration into the "I", which isn't a difficult process but few people are willing unless they are suffering because who wants to see that they are wrong or see that they are living a lie? people would rather do anything to cover up their own untruths because to let go of them can be perceived as a loss and can even be perceived to threaten their existence.

 

pretty much i agree with this, except for the fact that you still insist on claiming it's not a difficult process. IT IS, PRECISELY for the reason you give right after saying it's not difficult! i like that you ended on "threat to their existence." let me see if i can bring you along with me just a little...

 

In some ways a simple person is going to have an easier time with enquiry because their mind wont have woven a great deal of elaborate sophisticated concepts and thoughts around their life and identity, so I don't think it has to do with IQ as much as it is to do with being willing and people are only usually really willing when they have nowhere else to go, or they are suffering too much, or they have basically come to an end and the common delusions of life are no longer very convincing, or they have a really deep inner heart longing for the truth.  

 

 the person with "nowhere else to go" as you just put it, the person suffering in such a way, genuinely, is the person enmeshed in existential depression. but do a search and see just how often existential depression comes up in relation to giftedness or above-average intelligence. the thing about existential depression is that it's not a malfunction of the brain or a chemical imbalance or anything like that. it doesn't respond to anti-depressants. it's actually something right with the brain, but an inability to cope due to one's oblivious and unsupportive environment. this points to the tendency of the gifted to see the naked truth of things in a way that no one else around them does. now this also occurs in people who have experienced sudden loss or traumatic events sometimes, but for the gifted it tends to be a natural part of their developmental cycle.

 

you can't equate below-average intelligence with simplicity as if it's akin to clarity. have you met a lot of middle school kids with profound clarity and self-awareness? i doubt it. the mind of a young teen is not simple. it's a big ball of confusion, fantasies, identity crisis (the need to find where they fit in), and emotions mistaken for truths. Forrest Gump didn't have very sophisticated concepts about his identity, but as his teacher i wouldn't be in a rush to suggest self-inquiry.

 

i don't know. you can disregard that last paragraph. what are your thought on the existential depression thing. did i bring you along even a little bit?

 

 

EDIT: i guess my claim can be summed up like this: you give me 10 19-year-olds with above-average intelligence and a tendency towards existential depression, and in 5 years i could guide at least half of them to realization with self inquiry as the primary strategy. but give me 50 average or slightly below average folks, and it's very likely that one or fewer will succeed after 10 years of the same process.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Hundun

[Jetsun]

i don't know. you can disregard that last paragraph. what are your thought on the existential depression thing. did i bring you along even a little bit?

 

 

EDIT: i guess my claim can be summed up like this: you give me 10 19-year-olds with above-average intelligence and a tendency towards existential depression, and in 5 years i could guide at least half of them to realization with self inquiry as the primary strategy. but give me 50 average or slightly below average folks, and it's very likely that one or fewer will succeed after 10 years of the same process.

 

I don't know, personally in my daily life I get to meet and interact with some of the brightest minds from Cambridge University and just about all of them think they can find their way out of their problems and existential issues with their thinking minds, so in one sense their brilliant minds increase their sense of ego and identity within the mental realm more than the average person as they have been praised for their thinking and intelligence their whole lives. I haven't tried to do any enquiry with them but they have so much self invested in their minds that I doubt many of them really want to discover that the mind is a false king sitting on the throne.

 

I guess having an open mind and being inquisitive are qualities often found in high intelligence and education can help break down rigid concepts and views, but I still find it hard to directly correlate intelligence with capacity to do enquiry. Take for example Sri Nisargatta Maharaj, he was pretty much uneducated and considered unremarkable and he says he made such advances spiritually basically because he trusted his Guru, that was it, his Guru said just keep coming back to the "I am" and he trusted him so that is what he did. Why he trusted him so completely I don't know but personally I think such things are more to do with intuition or heart intelligence than anything else. 

[Sahaj Nath]

I don't know, personally in my daily life I get to meet and interact with some of the brightest minds from Cambridge University and just about all of them think they can find their way out of their problems and existential issues with their thinking minds, so in one sense their brilliant minds increase their sense of ego and identity within the mental realm more than the average person as they have been praised for their thinking and intelligence their whole lives. I haven't tried to do any enquiry with them but they have so much self invested in their minds that I doubt many of them really want to discover that the mind is a false king sitting on the throne.

 

I guess having an open mind and being inquisitive are qualities often found in high intelligence and education can help break down rigid concepts and views, but I still find it hard to directly correlate intelligence with capacity to do enquiry. Take for example Sri Nisargatta Maharaj, he was pretty much uneducated and considered unremarkable and he says he made such advances spiritually basically because he trusted his Guru, that was it, his Guru said just keep coming back to the "I am" and he trusted him so that is what he did. Why he trusted him so completely I don't know but personally I think such things are more to do with intuition or heart intelligence than anything else. 

 

fair enough.

 

i was hoping that you would do a little bit of digging into what existential depression is and how it relates to intelligence. i'm pointing to an innate quality of mind that has nothing, NOTHING to do with education. in fact, more highly gifted young people actually drop out of school than any other group because they're so ill-suited to the rigid, linear structure and the notion of a letter grade incentive. the ones who make it to elite institutions are the few and the lucky. 

 

so given your example, i don't know enough about Nisargadatta Maharaj yet (just started reading up on him a little while ago), but i would suggest that his master recognized a certain quality of mind for whom such inquiry was a fit. if you can show me that his master gave these same instructions to all of his disciples and many of them awakened, then that would definitely counter what i'm talking about. do you know? guess i'll look it up for myself.

[Sahaj Nath]

a friend just sent me this clip. it's so close to what i was trying to express that i began to tear up a little bit as i watched it.

 

 

it's not perfect, mind you. but it's SO good!

 

[9th]

--if it only it were so easy. we should have glut of enlightened beings walking around here in the West, then. it's not so much that you're wrong completely, but that honest self-assessment is in short supply. this is one of those areas where IQ matters. [and PLEASE don't use this as an opportunity to debate standardized testing!]

 

Im not sure what prompted you to ride my comment off into another tangent altogether (although I have some theories).  I never said self-inquiry is easy, or that anyone can do it, as long as they are inquisitive.  I was trying to indicate a particular predisposition that is more aligned to it than another path, specifically the devotional one.

 

Beyond that, teachers who complain about their students not progressing fast enough are always pretty suspect, IMHO.  In other words, maybe the student isn't the problem...

[Sahaj Nath]

Im not sure what prompted you to ride my comment off into another tangent altogether (although I have some theories).  I never said self-inquiry is easy, or that anyone can do it, as long as they are inquisitive.  I was trying to indicate a particular predisposition that is more aligned to it than another path, specifically the devotional one.

 

i wasn't trying to be nasty. not even a little bit. but somehow i managed to piss you off anyway.... well, go ahead and have a piss then. i didn't join this thread for a sniping session.

 

and just to respond to your first comment, which seems to be what offended you... my comment is not even close to "riding" yours off into another tangent unless your comment had nothing at all to do with my argument, which was the subject of discussion that revived the thread.

 

i'd apologize, but i just don't see how i did anything wrong.

 

Beyond that, teachers who complain about their students not progressing fast enough are always pretty suspect, IMHO.  In other words, maybe the student isn't the problem...

 

okay, maybe. but neither i nor anyone else in this thread complained about their students not progressing fast enough. i just wanted to express my frustration with the popularity and ubiquity of "self-inquiry" practices and get some feedback and exchanges going.  i think what you just did here is more of a "riding my comment into another tangent altogether" than anything i've said so far.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Hundun

[9th]

i wasn't trying to be nasty. not even a little bit. but somehow i managed to piss you off anyway.... well, go ahead and have a piss then. i didn't join this thread for a sniping session.

 

i'd apologize, but i just don't see how i did anything wrong.

 

No one has done anything wrong, no one needs to apologize.  It sounds like you have a bit of a thin skin, though.

 

okay, maybe. but neither i nor anyone else in this thread complained about their students not progressing fast enough.

 

Really??   Heres a quote from your comment, the part I was responding to:

 

as an exaggerated example (by which i mean the example is true, but the truth of it is not limited to this extreme case), i once had an inquisitive student who was 32 years old, but he processed at the level of maybe a 7th or 8th grader. he wasn't "special needs" or anything, but he did possess below-average intelligence. he loved all things mystical and scientific, but he didn't have a talent for either. and guess what he thought his fast track to enlightenment would be? HINT: it wasn't bhakti.

 

So I guess what you are saying is that the 32 year old student who processed at the level of a 7th or 8th grader - was progressing fine anyways?  You are saying he was inquisitive, but of below average intelligence - but he still progressed with no problems, as any other student?  So then Im wondering - whats the problem?

 

It seems a bit odd... just your whole line of reasoning is odd to me - from what I understand you are saying that the only quality that makes one suited for self-enquiry is high intelligence, high IQ.  Skipping through everything else - Id disagree with that.  Im going to reiterate my statement above, that inquisitiveness is a good sign for being suited to self-enquiry. 

[dwai]

No one has done anything wrong, no one needs to apologize.  It sounds like you have a bit of a thin skin, though.

 

 

Really??   Heres a quote from your comment, the part I was responding to:

 

 

So I guess what you are saying is that the 32 year old student who processed at the level of a 7th or 8th grader - was progressing fine anyways?  You are saying he was inquisitive, but of below average intelligence - but he still progressed with no problems, as any other student?  So then Im wondering - whats the problem?

 

It seems a bit odd... just your whole line of reasoning is odd to me - from what I understand you are saying that the only quality that makes one suited for self-enquiry is high intelligence, high IQ.  Skipping through everything else - Id disagree with that.  Im going to reiterate my statement above, that inquisitiveness is a good sign for being suited to self-enquiry. 

Sometimes we lay too much weight on IQ and intelligence. My experience is that the "truth" as it were, needs a dropping of "intelligence" (as in applying our standard categorical frameworks). We are often too smart of our own good...and the more intelligent we are, the greater our propensity for self-delusion...

[Sahaj Nath]

No one has done anything wrong, no one needs to apologize.  It sounds like you have a bit of a thin skin, though.

 

i used to have a reputation for being harsh and overly confrontational. i'm trying to be a better person these days. but i still know sniping when i see it. your attitude in that post was both perplexing and unwarranted.

 

 

Really??   Heres a quote from your comment, the part I was responding to:

 

 

So I guess what you are saying is that the 32 year old student who processed at the level of a 7th or 8th grader - was progressing fine anyways?  You are saying he was inquisitive, but of below average intelligence - but he still progressed with no problems, as any other student?  So then Im wondering - whats the problem?

 

there's no complaint there about his rate of progress. my complaint was about his belief that self-inquiry was a good fit and the fastest path for him. i think what i'm saying there is very clear. not only did you misinterpret it, but you added a back-handed insult to it as well with the whole "maybe the student isn't the problem" bit.

 

It seems a bit odd... just your whole line of reasoning is odd to me - from what I understand you are saying that the only quality that makes one suited for self-enquiry is high intelligence, high IQ.  Skipping through everything else - Id disagree with that.  Im going to reiterate my statement above, that inquisitiveness is a good sign for being suited to self-enquiry. 

 

well, clearly you don't understand, and you're not even trying to. i never said IQ is the only measure, skip everything else. that's an asinine position. not all genius manifests the same way. i said previously that i was pointing to an innate quality of mind, and IQ is a factor, i think the most over-looked factor. i even mentioned "existential depression" as a common affliction for the type of quality of mind that i was pointing to. look up the term. like i said above, look at how often the term is paired with giftedness and then try to understand what i'm saying about quality of mind. it's not about being smarter or knowing more than others; i'm talking about a qualitatively different experience of the world. just like the video clip i posted. did you watch that? did you consider its implications? 

 

you stated that you were trying to indicate a particular predisposition that's more aligned to self-inquiry than a path like devotion. i didn't misunderstand you. i argued that your "particular predisposition" isn't enough by itself, that innate intelligence has to be a part of that disposition, and i gave an example of a student who has the disposition you outlined, but lacks the IQ.

 

i've tried to be painfully clear throughout, and it's like you're insisting on misunderstanding me. i don't think i wish to continue this dialog, but you're welcome to have the final word if you like.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Hundun

[9th]

you stated that you were trying to indicate a particular predisposition that's more aligned to self-inquiry than a path like devotion. i didn't misunderstand you. i argued that your "particular predisposition" isn't enough by itself, that innate intelligence has to be a part of that disposition, and i gave an example of a student who has the disposition you outlined, but lacks the IQ.

 

i've tried to be painfully clear throughout, and it's like you're insisting on misunderstanding me. i don't think i wish to continue this dialog, but you're welcome to have the final word if you like.

 

And I didnt misunderstand you - because I never claimed that a "particular predisposition" IS enough by itself - the idea of that should be laughable on its face - its obvious and goes without saying.  Thats why I wondered why you had to chime in with such an obvious "debate" in the first place, as you offered your experiences with your students and so forth, apparently with such a fragile ego that it happened to shatter in the ensuing arguments.  Unfortunately, thats not my problem.

[Nikolai1]

I feel very sympathetic to what everyone is saying here but especially Hundun.

 

I've long realised that there is a certain quality, that is undoubtedly some kind of cognitive excellence, that is necessary for realisation. But at the same time, it has nothing to do with intelligenc as conventionally defined.

 

I find myself calling it wisdom, but it is a wisdom that a child can already possess at 10 and which some adults die without ever attaining. Such people can be very high functioning but at the same time seem incapable of learning from their mistakes and commit the same negative patterns of behaviour over and over until they die. A child at 14 may make the same kind of blunder at 14 and resolve never to make it again, and they don't.

 

What could cause such a disparity in the human mind is a complete mystery. For some people this wisdom develops slowly over the lifespan, but others it eludes entirely.

 

Unsatisfactory though it is, many people develop a concept of soul age to account for this mysterious cognitive capacity. In other words, some people are born with a wisdom that has been acquired in former lifetimes.

 

As this thread is on self enquiry, we can quote Ramana Maharshi who himself said " A competent person who has already, perhaps in a previous incarnation, qualified himself realises the truth and abides in peace as soon as he hears it told to him just once, whereas one who is not so qualified has to pass through the various stages before attaining samadhi."

 

What Hundun has called existential depression is a characteristic of what new age circles define as mature and old souls.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nikolai1