Lower back pain in meditation

[soaring crane]

My favorite lady, Martha Peterson here. Scroll down to "Pain free sitting for the office worker." 1 & 2. Those moves work great.

http://www.essentialsomatics.com/index.php?/hanna-somatics-learning-center/hanna-somatics-videos

 

The two office videos are 'private' - can't view them. But the others are very nicely done, thank you!

[Rara]

make sure that when you think you're slouching you really are, because if you think you are and you aren't, you'll more then likely make yourself so rigid an in a few minutes you'll realize that your holding you back straigt with the thighs and your ass is starting to lift off the cushion.

 

Could well also be a factor...going too far in the other direction (tensing the back into upright position) due to the "guilt" of having bad posture throughout the day!

[ion]

Could well also be a factor...going too far in the other direction (tensing the back into upright position) due to the "guilt" of having bad posture throughout the day!

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

 

You want to be upright, but in a natural comfortable way so that the body in accordance with gravity and posture and the finds its balance and hols itself up.

 

Also, and this was more of a addition not specific to lower back, a lot of what we think is discomfort is easily overcome if ignored. However continually trying to re adjust, (even if just at the beginning) because of the perceived discomfort ends up never ending, one discomfort leading to another after every re-adjustment.

 

A lot of that perceived discomfort is just noticing the different feeling. You feel it along those specific areas and thinking about the discomfort brings those specific lines of discomfort to mind which gives shape to those body parts, and keeps your attention on the shaped and formed, defined reality, you become very "self-conscious" in thinking and adjusting because of an about the "discomfort". That disrupts the meditation and being in the wrong posture, you wont be able to relax into what I call "profound comfort".

 

Back to the lower back; if your daily routine and its associated muscle tensions cause you to feel a certain wrongness in your meditation posture which causes you to correct the wrongness thus creating a wrongness, you might be getting the pain from that.

 

So the answer is to feel for where you really feel comfortable, all the while keeping mindful of the basic posture specifications, attending to uprightness, balance etc, but into relation to a posture that you can relax in without falling over or tilting or whatever. When you truly can melt, as in release all muscle tension dependent on consciousness, and remain in posture then that's where you want to be. Sit like a rock as they say; it tumbles and falls into a resting state of perfect balance.

 

In that state if a feeling comes up in your back make sure it is not related to consciousness, if it appears to be purely physical, not dependent on consciousness, then go back to your breathing. If it comes up in your leg or thigh or knee and it is not due to consciousness/cant be released, then go back to your breathing, or what ever you do to keep your attention in check.

 

When you can keep your attention off it you'll forget about it, it will go away completely, or the specific lines that draw attention to the specific body parts will fade and the feeling will lose its value/what you defined it as, and the lines will blur, it will feel like an object independent of your being, not comfortable or un-comfortable, just a ball of energy. That is where profound comfort sets in,the ultimate relief, a comfort not dependent on the body the physical that more so feels like its coming to you then from you; sitting on the lap of God .

[SonOfTheGods]

full lotus

 

you will forget the back pain

[Spotless]

I'm experiencing pain and stiffness at the moment when I sit in meditation. I'm wondering whether sitting upright with no support just causes tension? Either way, it's very distracting and not too pleasant.

 

When I then consciously slouch I feel better...but then it's like I'm doing more stretching exercises rather than meditating. Simple breath meditation just seems to be harder for me these days than say 6 months to a year ago.

 

Perhaps my back is just shaped differently. Long car journeys in an erect seat also hurts a lot after a couple of hours.

 

Does anybody have any clue as to what this could be?

 

The doctor once said that it's just because I'm used to slouching and that I need to train my back muscles up by doing yoga exercises but since then, I've been more mindful of posture yet still it seems to be a problem.

So much helpful info on this post!

I originally found TTB while laid up with a back problem and playing around online - actually looking up some topic and it brought me here.

 

I bought a gravity recliner - it worked wonders immediately.

Anti- inflamatories are good to have on hand

I started and still do Qi Gong classes 4 times a week and Tai Chi twice a week.

Not eating late is a big help.

A firm mattress.

 

As rigorous as my physical practice has been I am writing this from my bed where I have been laid up for 3 days with an intense lower back pain - though it is much better now and it was not the killer pain of full sciatica.

 

My back problem started with the purchase of a very expensive soft bed mattress and it did not help that I was meditating 3 to 6 hours a day. A soft bed was great for my wife - she is thin and light - for me it was a great feeling at first but the long

nights of being bent finally took their toll on my right hip joint and lower back - I was first hit with Sciatica in France while on vacation - luckily it was France - they took care of everything for next to nothing and the doctor visited me at the apt.

 

I do not sit at a computer all day unless I am designing stuff.

 

I cannot wait to try some of the other ideas here as I would like to rid myself of this concern.

 

Regarding your situation of having pain as soon as you sit down - what are you sitting on?

If I am sitting in a lotus I use a cushion that is 14" high - most are considerably shorter.

It is important for me and perhaps for you that your legs extend outward and down slightly rather than perpendicular or slightly up.

I also meditate in a chair sometimes - usually if I am a few hours into it I am sitting on the edge of the chair but even in these cases I make sure I have some lift so that my legs are on a slight downward slope.

You may also consider purchasing an angled seat cushion - I have them on all seats (car, dining room,office).

 

I was pretty surprised when this pain developed - it came on very suddenly.

 

It sounds like you are being given a warning instead of a scream - do take care and try to take care of this.

 

One of the posters mentioned lack of ab strength - the poster was spot on - very important.

 

All the best

Edited October 28, 2013 by Spotless

[Rara]

full lotus

 

you will forget the back pain

 

Yes, I've gone back to full lotus and interestingly, the pain is barely there. I have learnt that all different postures have very different impact? Half lotus will bring a little pain and usual crossed legs is just hell. I have to adapt depending on which I do - in half lotus I need to crouch a little more and cross legged, I need to slouch to be comfortable!

 

So much helpful info on this post!

I originally found TTB while laid up with a back problem and playing around online - actually looking up some topic and it brought me here.

 

I bought a gravity recliner - it worked wonders immediately.

Anti- inflamatories are good to have on hand

I started and still do Qi Gong classes 4 times a week and Tai Chi twice a week.

Not eating late is a big help.

A firm mattress.

 

As rigorous as my physical practice has been I am writing this from my bed where I have been laid up for 3 days with an intense lower back pain - though it is much better now and it was not the killer pain of full sciatica.

 

My back problem started with the purchase of a very expensive soft bed mattress and it did not help that I was meditating 3 to 6 hours a day. A soft bed was great for my wife - she is thin and light - for me it was a great feeling at first but the long

nights of being bent finally took their toll on my right hip joint and lower back - I was first hit with Sciatica in France while on vacation - luckily it was France - they took care of everything for next to nothing and the doctor visited me at the apt.

 

I do not sit at a computer all day unless I am designing stuff.

 

I cannot wait to try some of the other ideas here as I would like to rid myself of this concern.

 

Regarding your situation of having pain as soon as you sit down - what are you sitting on?

If I am sitting in a lotus I use a cushion that is 14" high - most are considerably shorter.

It is important for me and perhaps for you that your legs extend outward and down slightly rather than perpendicular or slightly up.

I also meditate in a chair sometimes - usually if I am a few hours into it I am sitting on the edge of the chair but even in these cases I make sure I have some lift so that my legs are on a slight downward slope.

You may also consider purchasing an angled seat cushion - I have them on all seats (car, dining room,office).

 

I was pretty surprised when this pain developed - it came on very suddenly.

 

It sounds like you are being given a warning instead of a scream - do take care and try to take care of this.

 

One of the posters mentioned lack of ab strength - the poster was spot on - very important.

 

All the best

 

Thank you I tend to only use a small cushion when I'm just cross legged. If in full lotus, I find I don't need one!

 

I have started regular practice again recently - this is so important. I find I usually slack off a bit if work gets hectic but now I realise there is no room for such allowances if I want to be a committed cultivator!

 

Yes, I'm doing some more yoga and general full body exercises (hindu squats, hindu push ups) to strengthen the core again too. I will take all advice on board until I find my answer and keep everyone posted.

 

So far so goo though...I'm making progress.

[SonOfTheGods]

After several decades of full lotus, I can take a nap in that asana.

On the computer, watching a documentary, everything but eating - finds me locked into full lotus.

 

The more you do it, the more stretched and aligned you will find yourself.

It IS worth the effort.

 

It magnifies the time spent in meditation

[xor]

It IS worth the effort.

 

More full lotus motivation for us still working to get there. Thanks!

Edited October 29, 2013 by xor

[soaring crane]

More full lotus motivation for us still working to get there. Thanks!

 

yes! I can get into full lotus, but I'm lying to myself when I do it.

[Rara]

After several decades of full lotus, I can take a nap in that asana.

On the computer, watching a documentary, everything but eating - finds me locked into full lotus.

 

Woah!

[Mark Foote]

In "Awareness Through Movement", Feldenkrais describes three exercises; I said this about them in an article on my site (it's linked in my signature):

 

"Moshe Feldenkrais described three exercises that he said would facilitate getting up from a chair without holding the breath. These exercises consisted of swaying the upper body forward and back, then side to side, and finally in a circle around the base of the tailbone. Similar exercises are often recommended for settling into the posture of zazen, although instead of swaying in a circle, the zazen practitioner leans out over each knee in turn."

 

Koun Franz came back to me and said that in Japan, they don't lean out over each knee on the diagonal (a practice I was taught here in the States), but rather they do a circular motion.

 

Lately I have noticed that if I go to sit the lotus with the right leg on top, a mind in my right calf is useful when I'm putting my left foot on my right thigh. Checking a dermatone chart (this one), the right calf gets referred sensation from nerves exiting around S1 and S2. I'm a firm believer that sitting the lotus is mostly about opening my ability to feel, especially at the sacrum, so that makes sense to me. The key for me is the way proprioception informs equalibrioception (you can read about equalibrioception here and proprioception here), all in a necessity of the relaxed movement of breath (the sense of gravity also informs equalibrioception, that's here).

 

If I go to a Zen center where they correct posture (and I haven't noticed anybody doing that at the Zen centers I attend in years), they always correct mine. I am hopeful now, as I have been for the last forty years, that I may learn a more relaxed and upright posture through my sitting practice. More important for me is that I realize some kind of absorption in my sitting that carries over into my walking, and vice-versa.

 

I have not read in the Pali Canon sermon volumes that Gautama practiced lying down, but I have read that he walked, and in fact he said that when there was no one behind or in front of him on the highway sometimes he liked the walking more than answering the calls of nature. I believe it was Rhys-Davids, founder of the Pali Society, that said that Gautama walked 20 miles frequently between villages.

 

So I would say, don't forget to walk as a meditation for your back.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Mark Foote

[SonOfTheGods]

Woah!

Like anything else, the more you practice it, the more proficient you become.

[Rara]

I'm practicing full lotus with my left leg on top.

 

When I come out of it, after say 25/30 mins, I have excruciating pain in my right ankle (the one sandwiched between my left thigh and left calf haha)

 

Shall I persist?

[SonOfTheGods]

I'm practicing full lotus with my left leg on top.

 

When I come out of it, after say 25/30 mins, I have excruciating pain in my right ankle (the one sandwiched between my left thigh and left calf haha)

 

Shall I persist?

 

Well I can't in good conscious say continue on if you are feeling tortured lol.

 

But I do know that it takes awhile for the body to accomodate this position.

 

Too much and it can cause long term damage to your joints if the inflammation continues.

 

Maybe stretch well and warm up your joints prior to full lotus.

Do full lotus for multiple short periods through out the day, rather than just one long sitting every 24 hours.

 

Eventually everything settles down, and your body understands what you are doing deliberately.

 

You just don't want to damage anything in the meantime lol.

 

I started doing full lotus as a child, pre-puberty even. My body sort of grew into that asana.

 

I think if I started doing full lotus now at my age, I'd be breaking something for sure lol

[Mark Foote]

I'm practicing full lotus with my left leg on top.

 

When I come out of it, after say 25/30 mins, I have excruciating pain in my right ankle (the one sandwiched between my left thigh and left calf haha)

 

Shall I persist?

 

That's interesting: so, no pain while you're in the posture, just after you uncork?

 

I know Dogen advised left leg on top, and there are places in Japan where you had to ask permission to sit half-lotus with the right leg up in the past and probably today. However, I like the advice my judo teacher used to give, always practice everything left-side and right-side. I'm thinking it's easier to sit left-side up in the morning before breakfast, and easier to sit right-side up in the evening after supper, but I'm not sure yet.

 

You could try getting into your lotus, holding it for a minute or two, then uncorking for a second and putting it back together. I usually find that I have somehow loosened the sacrum and hips enough to get the bottom foot higher on the thigh with the second try, and this has been an issue for me with the right leg on top in the past.

 

If putting the foot higher on the thigh produces discomfort in the posture but less pain on exiting the posture, I think that's the direction you should go in. The discomfort in the posture can be relieved through a coming to the senses, perhaps with an accent on the vestibular and proprioceptive senses, but definitely only out of a necessity in the movement of breath. Lately my own emphasis is on relaxing the spine from the tailbone to the top of the head in inhalation, and in exhalation; Chen Man-Ching mentioned that relaxation should be outward along the limbs and upward along the spine, as he described how to relax the body completely.

 

The professor himself.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Mark Foote

[Rara]

That's interesting: so, no pain while you're in the posture, just after you uncork?

 

Yep! The same that say, leaning on any body part awkwardly would cause pain and/or pins and needles (which I also get)

 

When I'm in full lotus, I'm fine. I just feel the pain after!

[SonOfTheGods]

Yep! The same that say, leaning on any body part awkwardly would cause pain and/or pins and needles (which I also get)

 

When I'm in full lotus, I'm fine. I just feel the pain after!

pain after your circulation came back

 

ironically, full lotus discomfort (some discomfort) is okay to have because it will keep beginners from falling asleep.

 

Once you have the alpha state down, cycling of the brain waves may eliminate the full lotus discomfort.

 

Monitor your mind and see if you are ready for no more discomfort.

 

Might be an "etheric trigger point"

[Rara]

Just an update.

 

After making an imptovement with more regular mindful practices of pysical activities (meditation, wing chun, stretching etc) , the pain has now come back.

 

I've spent the last week or so barely behind the laptop (on purpose as an.experiment) So I'm ruling that out as a cause. What I think it could be is my daily back pack wearing. I think I could well be tiring the muscles by exercising them too much!