KAP vs Hoshin Tao chikung

[awarenessrules]

Hi,What is the difference between KAP and Hoshin Tao chikung?Also what is the connection of meditation mastery cds to the above two?I have Hoshin Tao chikung all 7 levels and Meditation mastery cds by Glenn Morris.Are these 2 an alternative to KAP level 1? The fact is i cant afford KAP,I emailed Santiago for a donation but he did not reply.I thought he was an enlightened man and he will consider my request.I know KAP safely awakens Kundalini and is the most effective.But i dont have the money.Are there any KAP practitioners here?

Thanks

[Leif]

KAP 1 is a loose set of teachings (in terms that every teacher does it differently) and base techniques (like the secret smile that Santiago posted here couple years ago) towards kundalini awakening.

Most likely some of the techniques in Hoshin Tao or Meditation Mastery will be found in KAP, ie. there is some overlap for sure.

 

 

But i dont have the money.

 

Santiago is very busy and he is teaching one on one basically. You can try to contact Tao, he used to teach through webcast all attendees at once, so one more student doesn't necessarily mean more time spent for him.

 

Btw. search all posts of vajrasattva on thetaobums, it's a goldmine for what KAP is. You can figure a lot from that and the cds you got.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Leif

[RiverSnake]

In regards to money, I believe teachers deserve to be compensated for their teachings.....we all have to eat and support ourselves and our families and the techniques teachers offer is often of immense value....not offering material for free does not mean your unenlightened, it just means you need money in order to sustain your livelihood. Also my understanding of KAP is that it is a conglomeration of techniques from various traditions....they experimented and found what they thought was most efficient and put it into a program....I believe Hoshin Tao along with many other techniques is part of KAP.

 

That being said, here's some free foundational techniques from the KAP program that Santiago gave out here for free: http://thetaobums.com/topic/9719-dr-morriss-secret-smile-breathing-basic-kap-1-giri-for-the-tao-bumbs/

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 4, 2013 by OldChi

[mjjbecker]

The fact is i cant afford KAP,I emailed Santiago for a donation but he did not reply.I thought he was an enlightened man and he will consider my request.

 

Then save up the money until you can. Maybe then you will appreciate it, as well as his efforts. Your 'I thought he was an enlightened man' jibe is really quite out of order.

 

Santiago is a very generous person. I've had many interesting conversations with him in the past, he has helped me and he has helped friends of mine. Not once did he ask for money.

 

How he spends his time and effort is entirely his affair, and no one has any right to expect anything from him.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi,What is the difference between KAP and Hoshin Tao chikung?Also what is the connection of meditation mastery cds to the above two?I have Hoshin Tao chikung all 7 levels and Meditation mastery cds by Glenn Morris.Are these 2 an alternative to KAP level 1?

 

When Doc developed Hoshin he gathered a series of meditation and qigong techniques to teach his students. These were drawn from his experiences. He used his students to sound out and refine these methods. The things that worked stayed, the stuff that didn't was dropped. Over time a core was developed. This is Hoshin Tao Chi Kung. The Chi Kung of the Hoshinroshi Ryu.

 

Years later when Doc met and began teaching with Susan Carlson (Shaktimama on this forum), they developed a workshop for awakening kundalini that drew from both of their experiences, yet largely used the 'core' practices from Doc. This became the Kundalini Awakening Process (KAP).

 

Hoshin Tao Chi Kung varied over the years as Doc taught different groups, but the 'core' remained. At some point he had some students develop it more fully. This was further developed again later on by other students at Doc's request. So depending on who learned with who and when, what they will have learned as "Hoshin Tao Chi Kung" will vary. Though everyone would have learned the core and most important methods. The Meditation Mastery tapes/cds are the early recordings of many of the original and core Hoshin Tao Chi Kung.

 

What people learned also depended a little on how well they knew Doc and how long they studied with him, he primarily came from Japanese Budo background remember.

 

KAP was later further developed at Doc's request by Santi and Tao, they refined stuff, added stuff from Umma Tantra and so on. This is the KAP program as it is today. In all fairness to Santi and Tao they really put a lot in to the new program to make it what it is, taking Doc's stuff and with his guidance finding a better way in for people.

 

KAP comes from Hoshin Tao Chi Kung, but is its own animal. Some of the ingredients are the same, some are different but really it is the recipe that is different. And the real benefit from the program is the contact time with the teachers who pass on the nuances and many aspects of 'oral' tradition (kuden) that Doc never wrote down. I don't know of any better teachers of Doc Morris esoteric stuff than the KAP guys, and I have studied with all the "Hoshin" groups that arose out of his death.

 

Sometimes it is the why and how more than the what that is needed.

Edited October 4, 2013 by snowmonki

[h.uriahr]

Hi,What is the difference between KAP and Hoshin Tao chikung?Also what is the connection of meditation mastery cds to the above two?I have Hoshin Tao chikung all 7 levels and Meditation mastery cds by Glenn Morris.Are these 2 an alternative to KAP level 1? The fact is i cant afford KAP,I emailed Santiago for a donation but he did not reply.I thought he was an enlightened man and he will consider my request.I know KAP safely awakens Kundalini and is the most effective.But i dont have the money.Are there any KAP practitioners here?

Thanks

 

Give Santi some time. He is VERY busy

He will respond back to you no doubt.

[awarenessrules]

I contacted both Tao and Santiago but no replies.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hoshin Budo Ryu's Shihan fest event is over this weekend. I have no idea if Santi has gone or is involved but it may be why e-mails are are a little slow. I don't know when the OP e-mailed him, so can't comment on that.

 

Best,

[awarenessrules]

Can somebody tell me email ids of Tao and santiago? I contacted them on facebook but got no replies.

[Isimsiz Biri]

I have seen articles about Kundalini syndrome. Just asking with curiosity, with no idea at all about KAP, is there a risk of Kundalini Syndrome with KAP?

 

One article for instance:

http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-syndrome

Edited October 6, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[h.uriahr]

I have seen articles about Kundalini syndrome. Just asking with curiosity, with no idea at all about KAP, is there a risk of Kundalini Syndrome with KAP? One article for instance:http://www.taraspringett.com/kundalini/kundalini-syndrome

I can't speak about any other instructor but Santiago Dobles is GREAT. If someone were to experience any odd symptoms there is no doubt in my mind that Santi could help. He has SERIOUS juice. Like distance is no issue juice.

 

Can somebody tell me email ids of Tao and santiago? I contacted them on facebook but got no replies.

The last time I emailed Santi it took 3 weeks for him to respond.

[Antares]

1)I know KAP safely awakens Kundalini and is the most effective.

 

Hi. How do you know it's safe and most effective? What about possible kundalini syndrome?

 

As far as I know only traditional yoga methods are the most safe and effective. That mean there must be Parampara - spiritual lineage where pupil should receive transmission and is to be guided by his guru. At least kundalini practice must have traditional roots coming from authentic yoga lineage. What is the lineage KAP coming from? How is it safe? Who is going to mitigate kundalini syndrome which you might have? How are you sure that you will do everything right?

 

 

2)But i dont have the money

 

Well, that' just may be not for you at the moment. If they do not reply to your request just let it go imho.

[SriChi]

Antares, you could start by reading the KAP website and review here on TTB. Dr. Glenn Morris formulated the technique by self-experimentation.

 

How do you think the very first Yogis did it?

 

Blessings.

[Antares]

SriChi, the very first yogis in Indian tradition were Celestial Avatars (incarnations of Lord Shiva) such as Gorakshanath, Babaji or Guru Padmasambhava considered as incarnation of Buddha. You might ask who was a teacher of Buddha and this is good question but you have to remember that all of them were disciples of their teachers and all these lineages hold different Parampara lineage which is coming from God. That means that all authentic lineages comes after incarnations of Avatars who in yogic tradition were incarnations of Lord Shiva. You want to say that Dr. Glenn Morris is such the Mahayogi. Do you have any evidence of this? How he can prove this? Did Mahayogis of the past sell their yoga for 500$ for each level? Did they hold seminars for the bunch of $$$? What you can see, lads, today is how many people invent some stuff and selling it for the sake of good profits but ask them how are they spiritual. Many of them do not know what is spirituality and they only speak of it. Spirituality is not a technique. Kundalini yoga never has been a technique. It is impossible to awake Kundalini just by breath or physical movements. If somebody says he evolved his/her kundalini by breath or bandhas - avoid it. This is confusion. They just arise they apana and confuse it with kundalini. Yoga in the West today is very good commercial product and you have to always keep it mind. The same situation is in Qigong actually. If you start ask these people about spirituality they will not be able to reply to your all queries and will not be able to explain you all things about it. They only can sell you some techniques - how to breath or how to move. it can have some benefits for health but sometime it can be harmful.

Anyway there are loads of free stuff available online or in books which comes from renown yogis. Why to pay so much money to someone else? Invent your own stuff, promote it and get profits.

If you do not have money and want good yoga techniques just spend some 30$ and get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Kriya-Secrets-Revealed-Complete-Techniques/dp/1479109517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381219965&sr=1-1&keywords=kriya+yoga

 

And say Goodbye to all your doctors who want bunch of $$$ from you. At least this is set of traditional authentic techniques

[寒月 Hanyue]

1)I know KAP safely awakens Kundalini and is the most effective.

 

Hi. How do you know it's safe and most effective? What about possible kundalini syndrome?

 

As far as I know only traditional yoga methods are the most safe and effective. That mean there must be Parampara - spiritual lineage where pupil should receive transmission and is to be guided by his guru. At least kundalini practice must have traditional roots coming from authentic yoga lineage. What is the lineage KAP coming from? How is it safe? Who is going to mitigate kundalini syndrome which you might have? How are you sure that you will do everything right?

 

Which traditional yoga methods? Are you sure they are all so safe?

 

A friend and teacher of mine was traditionally (in teacher-disciple relationship) taught a lineage of Himalayan yoga. His teacher was one of Yogi Bajan's teachers and greatly influenced what has become known as "kundalini yoga" in the West.

 

His teacher synthesised a 'modern' yoga from many classical yogas as a vehicle for modern people, and to make yoga accessible to a greater variety of people. Why? Because he saw that many were hurting and damaging themselves with the classical yoga. So he came up with a safer entry point. Please note I did not say something better. The idea being you can graduate to the classical yoga after and more safely. Though many simply found no need to do so. His method also resulted in kundalini, though he didn't make a big deal out of it and simply saw it as a consequence of correct practice.

 

Why mention this at all?

 

One I simply do not believe that older automatically equals better, which is not to say that that is what you are saying either. Yes the benefit of a genuine lineage is that the teachings and methods have stood the test of time. But it also depends greatly upon the orientation and aims of the lineage as to what their methods will do for and to you over time. There are many yogas that are intentionally damaging and dangerous in their pursuit of spiritual attainment.

 

Secondly, I met my friend through Doc Morris. He was a friend of Doc's, and respected and acknowledged Doc's attainments. Doc was Doc, nothing more nothing less, warts n all.

 

Doc did have 'lineage', but (partly because he was American) his intention was to teach the 'good stuff' more openly, without making people wait years (or even decades) for it, or without having to give their life to a guru. In the Chinese traditions I have been told by one of my own teachers that there are basically two reasons for changing the name of something, it is a true yin-yang of Chinese culture. You either believe you have changed and improved what you were taught beyond your teachers and so change the name. Or conversely, you feel you have not reached your teachers level or expectation and do not wish to embarass them or cause them loss of face.

 

Many in the Bujinkan saw Doc's Hoshin as him being American and "empire building" as many other American Bujinkan teachers had done. This is erroneous thinking, especially as Doc had developed the original Hoshin syllabus before finding or beginning to study ninpo in the Bujinkan. Doc largely taught (both the martial and esoteric) under the banner of Hoshin and not his lineages to avoid politics and embarassing his teachers. However he always pushed his students towards the traditions that suited them so they could take their studies 'further'.

 

Of course you can argue and debate over the efficacy of Doc's attempts to do this for his students and that of my friends Himalayan Yogi teacher. However, the purpose and intent behind this is largely the same and had nothing to do with anything else. Teachers of any age of any culture have done similar if we look at the histroical record, some more successfully than others, but isn't that always the way.

 

As for Kundalini syndrome and KAP, all the primary teachers of KAP are part of traditional lineages, and are very well versed in a mulitude of kundalini related things. Their approach to avoiding and dealing with kundalini syndrome is one of the best I have seen. And while I certainly haven't seen everything, I've seen quite a bit.

 

I post this not to convince you, or change your mind about anything. I simply have experience and information that is relevant to the questions posed in your post. Everyone needs to follow their heart and what makes sense to them.

 

All the best,

[Antares]

snowmonki,

Which traditional yoga methods? Are you sure they are all so safe?

 

I can list here only few traditional yoga lineage just for example:

- nath sampradaya

- kashmir shaivism

- kubjika

- kriya yoga of Lahiri Mahasaya

.....

 

The list of indian yoga above refers to the yogic and tantric sects which have traditional authentic Parampara. Also there many half traditional yoga. For example:

- Shivananda yoga (which is only his personal therapeutic style of yoga)

- Swami Satyananda's yoga

- Krishnamacharya's yoga (personal style as well)

- Dihrendha Brahmachari's yoga (style)

and many others

 

And there are many many not traditional self made diluted yoga made up in USA. Yogi Bajan is good example of such the "yoga". He refers to "sikh yoga", but sikhs do not practice yoga in common and there never had been "kundalini yoga" within sikh tradition. If you refer to yogi Bajan's style which was self-made, as example of "traditional yoga" I will strongly disagree with you on this. It does not have Parampara and has no any traditional roots in authentic yoga. This is mix of some techniques. I will explain briefly why this is not traditional yoga. Traditionally in Indian authentic sampradayas they revere Kundalini as the Goddess and they do pujas for her and for other Deities of theirs traditions. Yoga asana's and pranayamas are only PART of methods and all of them are connected with Tantra. But some people only took some methods from there and invented their own styles for health benefits merely or for some other benefits such as diff small siddhis akin to some neigong benefits in MA. And they invented theirs STYLES. But style just fits a certain person. In Tradition there are many other techniques and methods and only Guru can choose what is right for a certain person. And spirituality means transmission from guru what one can't get from yoga instructor. Yoga instructor can just only show you technique. Ok, they can tell you that your guru is "inside" and "blah blah blah", but this is just words, words and words.... Who got spiritual realization in these yoga styles? Why you think this is Yoga? Bc they have flexible bodies and say nice words? First you have to determine what you are looking for in yoga. The word Yoga for itself means "Union" and "Connection".

The Union of Shiva and Shakti and Connection to the spiritual lineage.

 

 

His teacher synthesised a 'modern' yoga from many classical yogas as a vehicle for modern people, and to make yoga accessible to a greater variety of people

 

 

Better to say "commercial self made "yoga" "

 

 

Why? Because he saw that many were hurting and damaging themselves with the classical yoga.

 

What is the classical yoga?

 

Yes the benefit of a genuine lineage is that the teachings and methods have stood the test of time

 

That's right!

 

 

But it also depends greatly upon the orientation and aims of the lineage as to what their methods will do for and to you over time. There are many yogas that are intentionally damaging and dangerous in their pursuit of spiritual attainment.

 

I agree

 

 

Secondly, I met my friend through Doc Morris. He was a friend of Doc's, and respected and acknowledged Doc's attainments. Doc was Doc, nothing more nothing less, warts n all

 

A Doc acknowledged spiritual attainments of another doc? Good stuff!

An old women coming to a doctor and complains on her health. Doctors does medical inspection and says "Ah, I give you prescription. Kundalini yoga twice a day. One hour in the morning and one hour before going to bed ".

 

 

Doc did have 'lineage', but (partly because he was American) his intention was to teach the 'good stuff' more openly, without making people wait years (or even decades) for it, or without having to give their life to a guru

 

What is the lineage? I could not find any info on this on the web. But what I could see was the mix of conceptions and techniques taken from qigong and "yoga".

 

That' enough for me. You do not have any of good points in your post

[寒月 Hanyue]

Better to say "commercial self made "yoga" "

 

A Himalayan yogi born into a family of yogi's (in what is now pakistan) who studied with many well respected teacher of different yogas, who began teaching at his teachers request around or after the age of 50, who taught yoga at different levels depending upon the individuals infront of him, and who worked for decades to be able to help a wide range of people with his knowledge, who never charged for teaching, never stopped learning, and died over a hundred years of age.

 

Yeah, thats "commercial self made yoga"

 

I'm done here...

[Antares]

who never charged for teaching, never stopped learning, and died over a hundred years of age.

Yeah, thats "commercial self made yoga"

I'm done here...

 

 

That's just emotions. Do you know how many Himalayan yogis in Himalayas? Thousands. It does not mean that they practice authentic yoga. There are many "yogis" who just do asanas sometime and smoke charas. Anyone can state that he learnt from yogi in Himalayas. And then charge 500 $ for seminar and saying that his teacher does not charge anyone and he is immortal and many many other weird stuff. It's up to you who to believe. I just said that this does not seem traditional approach to yoga.

You have nothing to compare with and you have little experience with traditional yoga if any at all. If someone mixes up yoga with qigong referring to some great yogi somewhere in the mountains personally for me it sounds weird at least bc I know something about traditional yoga and that it is never mixed up with taoist systems. But I agree that there are many diff yoga systems in India and many diff yogis and that it might have good practices but all this stuff is very questionable especially when someone sells it in the West for big money. Without traditional approach it would be some kind of qigong but you shoukd be aware that qigong derived from taoist alchemy and it's diluted form. You did not answer what you are looking for in this system. Kundalini? When you get it evolved let us know, please. Who got kundalini evolved there?

[thelerner]

While I think its a mistake to assume taking Kap will automatically result in Kundalini, its also a mistake to disregard its potency. The Doc sought out, synthesized then practiced and experimented himself and with students to create a modern streamlined system without religious baggage. Its a very good system.

 

No guarantee of Kundalini though, because it relies on much work and practice from the student as well as a certain grace or maybe karma, if you will. Ofcourse you can say that about anything. Still those Himalayan yogis have given up a huge slice of life for their attainment. Kap's requirement are quite a bit less.

[Antares]

Let's just say they can not even say the name of their school and their guru's name. But it is known as "modern synthesized kundalini yoga". Fair enough. All authentic lineages are well known in india and guru's heard about another traditional schools and know many other gurus. There are many branches of schools and many half traditional styles but if they could provide realizations those schools would be renown for sure. All main schools have lineages and traditional texts.

I do not know which karma one should have to take part in this project. But I realize it is typical for the west and there are loads yoga schools like that. Somebody sent me PM with link to another "authentic" yoga lineage where the lineage was made up with funny aka Indian names and drawn with hands pictures of the "Himalayan yogis". A man is in funny poses on the pictures there on the website and invite people for real yoga... When I answered to that PM I got reply that "but he does astral projection in a class and has sex with students... he is very coool".

 

 

Edited October 9, 2013 by Antares

[thelerner]

Lineage, modern, store front..whatever, its still Caveat Emptor, buyer beware. Sometimes the best thing we have to go on is the advice of someone experienced and we respect. Even taking a free class, if we don't have experience we can be overwhelmed by presentation and not see its (expensive) fluff.

 

I think store front/community center yoga isn't a bad way to begin the art. Not everyone is heading to be yogi and there are beginning teachings that are very healthy and set the stage for a deeper exploration once you've gotten your feet wet.

 

edit> On the third hand, going to the Sivananda Yoga ashram on Paradise Island off Nassau is a heck of retreat. I managed to avoid doing yoga during my trip, but met yogi's, guru's and hindu priests etc., very cool. Great food, nice people, world class special presenters, all on a beautiful island.

Edited October 9, 2013 by thelerner

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Isimsiz Biri]

Good question!

 

Yes. There is a risk for "kundalini syndrome" with KAP.

 

Kundalini practices open deep stuff.

No system can guarantee "Safe kundalini awakening".

 

Stable awakening is not just a function of proper technique.

It depends on individual makeup and how much trauma you hold.

 

Btw. we don't have to bust open our muladhara to integrate mind-body, increase intuition, psychic sensitivity etc.

 

Do you have any estimation about the percentage of people ending with Kundalini syndrome out of all Kundalini practitioners?

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form