Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[effilang]

I don't know the history of XYP but there is the possibility that this lineage has a line different of that of sanbao theory in the way that Chung-Lü explains it, so today as the paradigm is the alchemical one we are forced to explain a path with a paradigm that is not its original (but this is only speculation, Can XYP say something about its origin or development? Something not included in the secrecy pledge, of course).

 

Hi Dam,

 

Take away the name "san bao" and we still have what the name points to, but what is that?

 

Energy.

 

The physical body has a vibrational threshold.

 

Between it's lower and higher ranges, physical and non-physical matter exist and interact with each other at different frequencies of movement.

 

As humans we are a product of the mixing of Yin and Yang and within us we have both a negative and a positve pole ie: Bai Hui and Hui Yin.

 

To maintain our health, well being and to evolve our spiritual capacities, we need to charge both poles by absorbing energy from their respective sources.

 

From the Earth, we receive food, water and air and the subtle Yin energies of the planet.

From the Heavens, we receive sunlight and moonlight and the subtle Yang energies of that which is beyond.

 

Our two poles are connected by a third, which is located between the extremes.

The top vibrates near the upper threshold of normal human function, while the bottom vibrates near the lower threshold of human function.

 

To interface the two there is a center.

Thus we have the Shang Dantien, The Zhong Dantien and the Xia Dantien.

 

They are interconnected, both directly and forward and reverse-cyclically.

 

The energies of the UDT represent unlimited potential and our imagination is endless, boundless, like the endless sea of the Wuji.

 

There is nothing that we can't think of. There is nothing that we can't imagine. Nothing is unfathomable, but nothingness itself.

 

This is why to enter emptiness during Jingzou, we must abandon even our concept of emptiness, for that in itself is a form of the mind, which if pursued will lead you away from the Wuji rather than into it. In fact you must even abandon "entering", for to enter means there is a place of being, a location and this yet again is a trap of the mind which will only damper your progress. To enter emptiness you must go beyond the mind or, to enter Wuji you must go beyond Taiji, the domain of the discriminative mind.

 

The creative potential of the UDT energies, the ideas and thoughts and imaginings, are nothing on their own.

If you only had a mind you would be akin to a person in most comas; able to think, but not to express the energy of the mind.

 

The physical body, the bones, the muscles, the bio-mechanical system which grants us locomotion, the teeth, the tongue, the lungs and larynx etc. which gives us our voice are all physical capacities for the expression of the UDT energies.

 

First we think, then we feel, then we act, and although not always in this order, the three always remain connected.

 

The physical body is a vehicle for the expression of our divine nature which is intrinsic to us.

 

When the energies that sustain the physical body weaken beyond repair and their vibration becomes so slow that they begin to resemble that of dense matter such as wood and rocks and soil, then it can no longer house the energies of the MDT which vibrate much quicker, neither that of the UDT, which are even faster. A disconnection occurs and a dissolution takes place.

 

The body (Jing) - YIN. Our permanent vessel, now dead, is burried and returns to the Earth, for it is only temporary.

The energy (Qi) - Disperses.

The spirit (Shen) - YANG. Our dormant immortal body, now lacking a vessel through which to express its unlimited nature in the physical realm, is driven back into the current of energies that dictate the delicate balance of Taiji and after time it is directed into a new vessel once more ad infinitum.

 

Each of these three energies can be strengthened.

 

We absorb nutritious food and our bones can repair themselves, our muscles can grow and our organs can be renewed.

In this way our Jing can be vitalised. We can absorb the subtle energies of our environment to cleanse and invigorate our Qi and we can meditate and absorb the energies of the heavens to develop our Shen.

 

Although direct sources of these energies can be obtained, each of them affects the other indirectly.

 

Because we reside within Taiji, because we are a product of Taiji, everything that exists in one way, can exist in it's opposite.

Thus, if our JING can be weakened to cause death, then our JING can be strengthened to bring about life.

 

This is the foundation of Hou Tian cultivation.

 

Through subtle observations, ancient Taoists were able to understand that there were ways in which the JING could be conserved, but much more than that, strengthened.

 

In it's utmost Yin state JING would cause a transformation of the body causing death, but when conserved and built up to large quantities it would reach a state of Yang, which when maintained near it's threshold, would eventually break through and transform into something different. It would be transmuted into Qi. This Qi when continuously fed by more JING and circulated appropriately within the network of the energy system would activate different capacities within the body, allowing the practitioner to experience a different dimension of his existence. Many super-normal abilities are developed which when used regularly deplete the Qi. With continous use, the new threshold cannot be broken.

 

[Althought JING QI and SHEN have different names, they are one energy in different forms which exist simultaneously]

 

By adhering to further regulation and "dieting", the QI could build up from it's Yin state into a peak of strong Yang Qi, which with time can break it's threshold and transform into yet another form of energy; YIN SHEN.

 

When the Yin Shen is concentrated and developed to it's peak, it will give birth to Yang Shen.

 

At this level, although there have been three cycles of waxing and wanning; Yin Jing > Yang Jing, Yin Qi > Yang Qi, Yin Shen > Yang Shen, and 3 threshold have been broken. These thresholds are still within the vibratory capacity of the physical body.

 

However in this direction of development, the SHEN will not leave the body as product of overwhelming weakness as caused during death, but due to overwhelming strength.

 

As the Yang Shen nears the threshold of the physical body, the physical-mind of the brain will have reached a state of fusion with the passive/dormant mind of the soul. The fusion of the physical mind with that of the dormant-soul, means we can now exercise a mental order to directly detach the soul from the body, since they are now functioning as one conscious unity.

 

There are several processes which take place here which overlap each other and they all work together beautifully to re-member us to our dormant soul, so that we can be awakened.

 

The soul is akin to Wuji. Limitless potential.

 

It's not up or down or left or right or strong or weak.

These are manifestations of the dichotomy of Taiji. These are manifestations OF potential.

 

Our immortal dormant soul. The part of us that never dies, is a spark of the Wuji.

In essence our original nature IS unlimited potential, but it lacks the means to express that potential. It needs a medium with a mind which can give birth to imagination, the precursor to creation.

 

We are in a way like Zeus without his thunderbolt or perhaps Mozart without his keyboard.

Unable to express our potential.

 

When our dormant immortal soul inhabits a body and is born into the world it establishes a connection to the physical brain and the physical body as a means of expression.

 

In the early years of development, its pure nature still shines brightly, but the body is young and the brain underdeveloped, so there is little it can do to express itself. As the brain gows and our intellect develops, we form the ACQUIRED MIND of the Brain, but as the function of the acquired mind grows, and our cognition develops we yet again fall under the rule of Taiji; our earthly mind grows (Yang), while the Heavenly mind wanes (Yin).

 

While this process is still underway, young children you will find have much greater access to the plethora of trans-reincarnational experiences readily stored within the soul. They can recollect past lives, see higher dimensions and easily tap into talents previously developed in former lifetimes. But only one mind can be in the foreground at a time, so as the physical mind of the brain grows the heavenly mind disappears.

 

As children we will exhibit the characteristics which most predominantly define our current level of evolution and intelligence, but ironically in a very primitive way due to the restrictions of the developing intellect.

 

Parents should be very careful to pick wisely, which of these attributes they promote and which not, because our refinement begins with our parents. If they screw it up, its not easy to get back on the right track.

It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men.

 

By the time we reach maturity, the soul is firmly in the background and our acquired mind is in control of the reigns.

A product of sense information from sound, sight, thought, smell, taste and touch, the acquired mind thrives when it is in motion, when it is analyzing, when it is absorbing, when it is expanding and growing.

 

If we don't use it to stop it. It will continue to occupy the seat of consciousness and leave no room for the soul.

 

But please bear in mind that, the acquired mind is not simply something to be gotten rid of. It is a quintessential ingredient to the complete awakening of the soul. It is the YANG of the YIN and we need to fuse them together.

 

The dormant soul is a silent recorded of events experienced by the body and synthesized by the acquired mind of the brain.

Even if the brain exploded at age 25 and the physical body died, the dormant soul will still retain all information up to the death of the brain.

 

The soul on it's own is just limitless potential without a means of expression.

The body on it's own is just a piece of meat without something to express.

 

To simply think, "my soul leaves my body" will not trigger conscious awakened immortality, albeit temporary forms of this are possible during OBEs.

 

In order to move the soul and harness it's potential, that is, in order to awaken ourselves, we must fuse the intellect of the acquired mind, but not the actual brain! The brain is simply the physical mass. What we must do is FUSE the product of the brain; the mind with that of the soul. In this way we endow the soul with the power to manifest. The power to IMAGINE.

 

When you combine the power of the acquired mind to IMAGINE with that of the soul as unlimited POTENTIAL, you give birth to the awakened immortal soul. No longer dormant. It now has a mind to express itself directly within it's non-physical form, without the need of a physical body.

 

Now acting as one entity, the awakened (no longer dormant) immortal soul, can now simply wish itself out of the body.

The difference? It now has mind. It now has thought.

 

I believe we are all sparked from the Tao in this way. Potential but dormant souls.

 

Through our endless journeys from one life into another, we seek to develop ourselves so that one day we will have the experience and know how to fuse the acquired-mind to the dormant soul in order to endow it with mind and liberate it from its constant return to Taiji in search of completing itself.

 

The foundations of meditation are such that the aim is to still the acquired mind to a point whereby it no longer occupies the space it normally does. During these sessions of low occupancy of the acquired mind, we begin to see glimmers of what is in the background; the dormant soul and we slowly and gradually begin to re-member, to re-collect ourselves into one.

 

Although this is all very broadly spoken, there are many processes inbetween that account to all this happening.

The longer we stay in emptiness during Jingzuo, the stronger our connection to our dormant soul becomes and the more powerful our connection to divine power.

 

Soon we can use the analytical mind to peer into the endless archives of the souls experiences, to look into former lives on record, to access previous talents and information amassed before and to experience and control the divine energy within the soul and Shen aspect of the energy complex which will allow you to express yourself more prominently as your true form; that of the Immortal God.

 

At the peak of this process; the fussion of the emotions, the energy and the mind with the dormant soul, produce the awakened immortal. One complete entity capable of divine expression in both physical and non physical form.

 

Now you may stay within your body until it's natural death or abandon it's shell.

Your soul, or YOU are now ONE. Awakaned. With your mind, and will, capable of thinking, you no longer are subject to the current of the Taiji, thus need not reincarnate.

 

It is all about raising the energy from the Eearthly to the Heavenly.

 

But this is fusion. This is why it is so important that the vessel must be cleaned before serious Neidan.

The pot must be washed before clean water is poured in and boiled, or even the vapor will be repulsive.

 

XYP still uses the conventional San Bao model of alchemical relationships and it adheres to all it's laws and reactions, however instead of absorbing earthly energy and utilising the potentials of the body to nourish the JING first, in order to raise the vibration from low to high, we connect to a source of unlimited Shen energy beyond the body which nourishes our Shen directly.

 

This means that our peak Yang threshold is broken very early in cultivation, which accounts for many instances of conscious out of body experiences while meditating amongst Tao Yu in our school.

 

The higher vibrational Shen energy envelops the body of the practitioner during initiation and is amplified while interfacing with your Fu Fa Shen during practice as well as while practicing with other Tao Yu.

 

Our Shen Gong practice acts to transform the high vibrations of Shen received during Tao Yin Shu practice and steps them down into Qi and JING. The practice itself is a catalyst to enabling the reverse transmutation of Shen to Qi to JING.

 

The process is quite literally flipped at this point during cultivation.

 

Because of this altered sequence of events, access and development of super-normal abilities and recollection of information stored within the dormant immortal soul is increased as a result of the rapid stimulation of the Shen energy.

 

As the Shen Gong practice is continued it progresses in stepping down the vibration from the UDT to the MDT to the LDT.

All energy can be converted, forward or backwards.

 

As the QI accumulates, it helps clear the meridians in preparation for further processess.

When it gets to the LDT, our Qigong practice begins. Here different breathing exercises are carried out under the administration of FFS. This helps compress the energy into the LDT until it eventually rotates.

 

This phase is similar to all authentic cultivation practices and most people here will be familiar with this.

 

Once the LDT is enegized to capacity, it's energy is coaxed through specific non-conventional directional combinations along the REN and DU channels in order to bring and hold the energy in the UDT.

 

It is of my opinion that all three Dantien play a very important role and they each contain specific ingredients which are extremely valuable and necessary for the successful completion of the alchemical process.

 

Eventhough we begin from the top in XYP, we still journey down to the LDT before we route the energy back up to the UDT.

 

Once the Qigong practices are complete, the final phase in our cultivation is undertaken.

Once again, this is similar to other schools. Our form of meditation is Tai Yin Jing Zou Gong: empty mind, empty body.

 

Now that we have purified the vessel and mixed and raised the complete vibration to near threshold levels of the body's peak potentials. It's time for the final push.

 

In this phase you will sit and meditate while Fu Fa Shen helps guide and stir your mind into the Wuji for the final leap.

 

The dormant immortal soul (YIN) enters the body and uses it to produce the acquired mind of the brain (Yang).

Then the acquired mind of the brain uses it's will to fuse with the soul (through cultivation) which combines the microcosm of heaven and earth into one, creating the awakened immortal.

 

There are countless benefits to becoming initiated with XYP, but my words can only encourage.

You'll never know until you try it for yourself, until then everything I say is as much the truth as it is a lie.

 

Besides that, XYP as we can see in its websites is more than the initiation, you cannot reduce the whole path to that, so it is neither “an instant initiation process” path nor “something that it is not worked at”. You have to do many things like self-introspection, self-correction, work with colleagues, work in the social world, there are tests, etc. In fact, the goal seems to be to fuse or blend the 3 yin souls and the 7 yang spirits in a organic whole in order to produce a fully functional human being, and this seems to me a rather interesting psychological path, it is some facet that sometimes is (seems) lost in the purely alchemical paradigm.

 

Indeed. This is something very important, which I feel people need to understand.

The worldy life is a like a school to your FFS. Your body is the laboratory.

 

There are countless opportunities within society which your FFS will avail of to refine your body, energy and spirit.

If you exclude yourself from the influence of the world, you reduce your recources.

 

The body is easy to refine, so is the subtle energy, but the Shen and aspects of the mind are very difficult to remedy without the opportunity to facillitate the creation of lessons from which to learn from.

 

The kite flies highest against the wind.

 

How can we become an immortal if we have not yet become a human?

There is more to the meaning of human and humanity that goes beyond the text-book definition of homosapien.

 

Introspection is paramount to development. I can't emphasize how important it is to constantly revise yourself.

 

There are times when your FFS or another FFS of higher authority will test you for up to half a year.

This doesn't mean the immortal will simply ask you a question and wait for you to answer or give you a task to perform.

 

No. You're analyzed during every waking and probably sleeping moment of your day for the duration of that period.

What you think, what you say, what you feel, how you act, how you treat people etc.

 

There is nothing you can hide from your FFS.

It is an extremely humbling experience for many people and you will never have felt quite this "naked" in your life.

 

As we refine the subtle aspects of our mind, we come closer to representing the name of our school and a prominent concept in Taoist philosophy; Xiao Yao. To be carefree, easy going, free, unrestrained. To be able to express yourself naturally and to revert back to the non-discriminative mind of the young child. To attain Qingjing.

 

We have a wonderful community of Tao Yu and every Tao Yu I have met till date have been remarkable people. Kind and humble and loving. They all see beyond their current existence and when we look at each other we see ourselves, because we understand that we are all connected as one. We are all walking each other home.

[zom]

effilang, when is www.esoterictaoism.com coming back online?

Edited July 12, 2014 by zom

[effilang]

effilang, when is www.esoterictaoism.com coming back online?

 

I will make one page accessible within a week, with the aim of promoting the September 2014 event.

I'll update it here when done.

[effilang]

effilang, when is www.esoterictaoism.com coming back online?

 

It's up now and will be updated in the coming weeks with an expansive article covering cultivation, tao yin shu and more.

[dawei]

It's up now and will be updated in the coming weeks with an expansive article covering cultivation, tao yin shu and more.

 

That looks great.

[Daeluin]

I think what opendao was hoping to convey is that Jing, Qi, and Shen both have houtian and xiantian expressions, and one needs to cultivate the xiantian expression in each of them in order to progress. Cultivating the houtian expression won't help one attain unity.

 

I've come across a lot of understandings that look at Shen as being on the xiantian end of the spectrum, with Jing being on the houtian end of the spectrum. They may operate in tune with different heavenly and earthly vibrations, but my understanding is that the tao exists before and between heaven and earth.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio:

 

The houtian jing is the jing of the intercourse; the houtian qi is the qi of inspiration and expiration; the houtian shen is the thinking shen. These three things have forms and images, and they all arise after your birth.

 

He goes on to explain this in depth.

 

It is nice to hear of schools which work from Shen to Qi to Jing, but whichever direction one starts from, the WuJi comes from the merging of the xiantian of Qi, Jing, and Shen back into one.

[effilang]

I think what opendao was hoping to convey is that Jing, Qi, and Shen both have houtian and xiantian expressions, and one needs to cultivate the xiantian expression in each of them in order to progress. Cultivating the houtian expression won't help one attain unity.

 

I've come across a lot of understandings that look at Shen as being on the xiantian end of the spectrum, with Jing being on the houtian end of the spectrum. They may operate in tune with different heavenly and earthly vibrations, but my understanding is that the tao exists before and between heaven and earth.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio:

 

 

He goes on to explain this in depth.

 

It is nice to hear of schools which work from Shen to Qi to Jing, but whichever direction one starts from, the WuJi comes from the merging of the xiantian of Qi, Jing, and Shen back into one.

 

Perfect.

 

I think somewhere in the middle of that explanation is where people get confused and become adamant in their positions, which bring about statements like; there is only hou tian or there is only xiantian or there is no hou tian or xian tian.

 

A lot of it depends on how these practices are initiated and what methodology is applied.

The route of transmutation is important there and it is not all the same, across all schools.

 

Xian Tian Qi, Jing and Shen are not easily sensed, and althought they too must be collected back into one, to do so is not often a direct path and requires firstly combining the Hou Tian Qi, Jing and Shen.

 

The less the acquired mind is involved in all this, the faster the process.

[effilang]

Q: I've been trying to awaken my energy since 2011 with not much success, will the initiation do this so I will feel it?

A: No.

The initiation is for the purpose of making a request to Tai Shang Lao Jun to assign an immortal to you. He/She/It will then interface with your Jing, Qi and Shen during your practice sessions and will expedite the energetic refinement process by guiding your San Bao (Three Treasures) into the conditions necessary for effective spiritual transmutation to take place.

The process is in reverse, so instead of gathering Jing, to transmute into Qi and then into Shen; during practice we connect to our assigned Fu Fa Shen (Teacher of The Spiritual Method) and it nourishes our Shen directly. It then guides us into a practice called Shen Gong, designed to step-down it's Wuji energy into Taiji where we can harness it and put it to use within the electromagnetic newtork of the body. It is otherwise too powerful and refined to be absorbed by the body directly.

With time this reverse process naturally purifies the meridian network, saturates and refines the Shen, Qi and Jing and then the Xia Dan Tien (Lower Energy Center) fills naturally of it's own accord, after which it will rotate about 45 degrees within the lower region of the body and initiate another stage in the alchemical process which in my experience with many other systems, is unique to our school.

What initiation will essentially do, is give you the opportunity to study and learn directly from someone who has already achieved what you are aiming to achieve; the fusion of the body's potentials to create the awakened immortal body, which can consciously live outside of the physical vessel and in a non-physical state; a state free from the pull of Taiji and it's reincarnative force, that drives us to be reborn in the physical realm over and over again.

You will need to practice just as dilligently as you would if practicing Hou Tian (Post Heavenly) methods on your own, but because this is a guided art, there is no margin for deviation and the path is direct. Hence the name of our practice; Tao Yin Shu 導引术 - The Divine Guidance Art.

Don't let the word divine throw you off here if you are an atheist or a non believer. It really is a very misunderstood word, which has sadly been tethered to a lot of the negative influences of some religious paths.

Divine is to Non-Physical energy as Corporeal is to Physical-Energy.

So what The Divine Guidance Art really means is that during Tao Yin Shu practice, you will be guided by a form of life that exists as pure consciousness, without a body. Your Fu Fa Shen, has for all intensive purposes transcended the physical and corporeal state and propelled it's consciousness from the physical shell into the non-physical, divine, dimension.

If you are dilligent, after time, your progress in the art and your progress on the way, will already be years ahead of most people who practice, even if they practice zealously.

Your FFS will test and assess you daily and when it deems fit it may recommend you for an examination whereby another examining immortal will test you for the duration of 6 months.

Here they will monitor your thoughts, your intention, your conduct, your virtues and your heart and you may be asked questions. So by this time you will need to have developed your communication abilities in order than you can both receive the examining information and send a reply to the non-physical dimension. If you've matured and evolved sufficiently, in body, energy and spirit/mind, you may pass and advance further in the school, inheriting more knowledge and skills, where some of these skills come as a privilge and authority of the school.

This is to say that, some skills are self made ie: of the body and a result of the Post Heavenly Jing, Qi and Shen, while others of the Pre-Heavenly Jing, Qi and Shen and then some come by authority ie of a certain body or organization in the physical or non-physical dimensions.

For example; the military general of a country whom has authority over the army, may be discharged from his position or demoted and he may lose such authorities as are respective of that position, but you cannot take away his developed skills when it comes to armed or unarmed combat.

The end goal of our school is GONG (Emptiness), such as should be the goal of ANY and EVERY authentic system of spiritual cultivation, regardless of it's origin or religious affiliations.

Through Tao Yin Shu we merge the 7 po and 3 hun into one body so that we can escape Taiji and perpetuate within the emptiness of Wuji in our original state of formless consciousness energy.

What you will feel during the initiation and this goes for over 90% of people is direct interaction with your FFS. He/She/It will interface with your body and guide your hands or legs into movement, in order to prove it is there to you; that the divine realm exists, that immortals exists; that it is all true and there is nothing more to doubt; and most likely it will start refining you immediately, so do not be startled if it moves you into different Yoga-like poses or makes you do certain exercises that you may not be familiar with.

If it does not move your body immediately, do not be dissapointed. It is easier to sense the low vibrational movements of the JING; bones, muscles, tendons, but not so easy to sense the movement of the suble electromagnetic Qi energy flowing within the meridians, and even harder to sense the Shen which vibrates faster yet. Yet once you are initiated, transformations will continuously take place on all 3 levels. Fu Fa Shen will refine you where it is necessary.

After the initiation you can go home and practice whenever you want, wherever you want, by inviting your Fu Fa Shen to instruct you. It will then begin to interact with you and guide you on the way.

It may do so with your body, your energy or your mind, depending on the state of your health and what needs to be addressed to prepare your body for the alchemical processes to come.

The vessel must be cleaned in order that the mixtures within are pure and uncontaminated, such as preparing a chemical reaction in a controlled laboratory environment, the instruments must be clean and ucontaminated so the concoction can be pure, effective and will achieve it's goal.

Best wishes.

Effi (Xuan Daoji)

Edited July 31, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

I think what opendao was hoping to convey is that Jing, Qi, and Shen both have houtian and xiantian expressions, and one needs to cultivate the xiantian expression in each of them in order to progress. Cultivating the houtian expression won't help one attain unity.

 

correct

 

I've come across a lot of understandings that look at Shen as being on the xiantian end of the spectrum, with Jing being on the houtian end of the spectrum.

 

no, Neidan works only with xiantian Jing

 

They may operate in tune with different heavenly and earthly vibrations, but my understanding is that the tao exists before and between heaven and earth.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio:

 

 

He goes on to explain this in depth.

 

It is nice to hear of schools which work from Shen to Qi to Jing, but whichever direction one starts from, the WuJi comes from the merging of the xiantian of Qi, Jing, and Shen back into one.

 

shen - qi - jing approach just doesn't work, it's not a traditional approach. Try to find it in Liu Yiming book.

 

Houtian's shen - qi - jing is popular in Qigong, with its mind quietude (meditation), breath work and some "very very secret" methods to work with sexual jing. It has no relation to Neidan at all.

 

Perfect.

 

I think somewhere in the middle of that explanation is where people get confused and become adamant in their positions, which bring about statements like; there is only hou tian or there is only xiantian or there is no hou tian or xian tian.

 

Both exists and have its role, but to get Neidan's results, people have to understand and follow the Neidan methodology. And it clearly restricts houtian's possible results and why xiantian's 3 real treasures are important. That's so basic :-)

 

A lot of it depends on how these practices are initiated and what methodology is applied.

The route of transmutation is important there and it is not all the same, across all schools.

 

The basic methodology is the same across all Neidan schools with traditional methods, that lead to a real transmutation (Yangshen with all its miracles). it was proved by many realized teachers of the past.

 

Other side schools don't have such results, so they can have any methods in any order.

 

Xian Tian Qi, Jing and Shen are not easily sensed, and althought they too must be collected back into one, to do so is not often a direct path and requires firstly combining the Hou Tian Qi, Jing and Shen.

 

It's just not Neidan, it is some kind of Qigong. And obviously in traditional Neidan, houtian work is not needed to get results. It is used sometimes, as many other things, but the purpose is different.

 

 

The less the acquired mind is involved in all this, the faster the process.

 

Not true. For the progress in Neidan, two things are equally important:

 

1) practice

2) theory understanding

 

Just think why there are so many classical books written by Teachers to their students. They wrote not to the crowd, so maybe they understood that without knowledge, real achievements are not possible?

[effilang]

I understand your comments opendao as I understand the place from which they spring; I have been to this place, but now I am no longer there. Perhaps if you discover where I have ventured to, you will too see what I can see now.

 

Until then my fellow cultivator, we must agree to disagree on some points .

 

Much love and success.

Edited July 31, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

The two lineages that most atracted me are in this thread, i.e.: wuliupai and xiaoyaopai.

Now I will write something about XYP. Referring to what is written in this thread I think (but I have no knowledge) that in the Daozang you can find alchemy based daoism and non-alchemical, with the later I mean: flying to the stars, frolicking among the immortals, etc. i.e. all the methods and imaginery that have an alchemical effect but that in many ways are parallel and prior to the Chung- Lü paradigm. For some reason (historical, sociological, etc.), the Chung-Lu paradigm (and its offsprings) has become the paradigm for explainig and thinking the daoism but actually is only one between many of them.

 

That's your guess. Except Zhongli-Lu, there are more older systems, let's name them Huang-Lao. And if you make a research, you won't find anything different from what you called "alchemical paradigm". Even when somebody met Immortals, they didn't "nourish their Shen directly" as it is in Xiao Yao Pai, but they gave some methods to practice, and this practice was according to the "alchemical paradigm" and started from replenishing Yuan Jing.

 

If we start to explore alternative approaches, we quickly see that such systems don't lead to the result of Neidan - Yangshen is not made, transformation is not done. So in terms of results, there is only one method, only one paradigm.

[opendao]

I understand your comments opendao as I understand the place from which they spring; I have been to this place, but now I am no longer there. Perhaps if you discover where I have ventured to, you will too see what I can see now.

 

Let's try. So what traditional Neidan school you've been initiated to before converting to XYP?

Edited July 31, 2014 by opendao

[effilang]

Let's try. So what traditional Neidan school you've been initiated to before converting to XYP?

 

The oldest one; life

 

You misunderstand the nature of our school.

There is no "conversion" process.

 

You go about your life, your beliefs and your activities as you did.

The truth is unfolded naturally and not by force.

Edited July 31, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

The oldest one; life

 

You misunderstand the nature of our school.

There is no "conversion" process.

 

You go about your life and your beliefs as you did.

The truth is unfolded naturally and not by force.

 

Is it just your thoughts or is it something XYP insists on? Because it's even less traditional then ideas about shen-qi-jing or FFS...

[effilang]

Not everything that exists is written in books or spoken in words, nor does the absence from such records deprive said things of their authenticity.

 

Once again you misunderstand the nature of our school.

There is noone to insist.

 

Believe what you will, go which way you want. It does not matter.

Your practice will align you to the path without effort. You needn't worry.

 

Be who you are, however you choose to be.

The return is natural.

 

It is through being that we can discover ourselves.

At the end of the day, no matter how we decide to be, the adventure will sooner or later lead to the same discovery.

 

There is no rush, no insisting.

Just flow with the way (things are.)

Edited July 31, 2014 by effilang

[Ish]

Hi Effi

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, how does one distinguish that the Fu Fak Shen is a yang shen immortal rather than a yin shen spirit?

 

Thanks

Edited July 31, 2014 by Ish

[opendao]

Not everything that exists is written in books or spoken in words, nor does the absence from such records deprive said things of their authenticity.

 

I mention things in your posts that clearly contradict to what was explicitly written in classical books. And, again, the results speak for themselves :-)

 

Once again you misunderstand the nature of our school.

There is noone to insist.

 

Believe what you will, go which way you want. It does not matter.

Your practice will align you to the path without effort. You needn't worry.

 

Be who you are, however you choose to be.

The return is natural.

 

It is through being that we can discover ourselves.

At the end of the day, no matter how we decide to be, the adventure will sooner or later lead to the same discovery.

 

There is no rush, no insisting.

Just flow with the way (things are.)

 

I understand you. This "quietude" approach is not unique, it's everywhere now. And it has no relation to Neidan and Daoist tradition in general.

 

Keeping "flow with the flow" obviously is not a reverse process.

 

 

Hi Effi

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, how does one distinguish the Fu Fak Shen as a yang shen immortal rather than a yin shen spirit?

 

 

Does XYP understand the difference?

Edited July 31, 2014 by opendao

[Ish]

If we start to explore alternative approaches, we quickly see that such systems don't lead to the result of Neidan - Yangshen is not made, transformation is not done. So in terms of results, there is only one method, only one paradigm.

 

 

So have some people in recent times in your sect achieved Yang shen? If so, how do you know that they have?

 

Thanks for the info.

[Daeluin]

Xian Tian Qi, Jing and Shen are not easily sensed, and althought they too must be collected back into one, to do so is not often a direct path and requires firstly combining the Hou Tian Qi, Jing and Shen.

 

Perhaps not at first. But they are ever present and cultivated through not using them up. Simply fasting is all that is needed.

 

I do not agree that first Hou Tian Qi, Jing and Shen must be combined. The Hou Tian direction is one of separation. To work with the sexual fluid is dangerous, and I don't see how uniting it with the breath and thoughts will create anything but chaos. To be combined, the San Bao must not be expressed as Hou Tian, but must be allowed to fill up in their Xian Tian states, or Yuan States, where one may work on combining them into what Liu Yiming terms the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixer in the Mysterious Barrier.

 

In any case, I advise you to not distinguish your school as following a "Xian Tian" approach while all other schools follow a "Hou Tian" approach. The "Hou Tian" approach may be found in martial application, but in general all the classical texts on Neidan speak in terms of cultivating Xian Tian energy.

 

shen - qi - jing approach just doesn't work, it's not a traditional approach. Try to find it in Liu Yiming book.

 

Liu Yiming doesn't specify which direction one is to follow, at least not from what I remember in this book so far.

 

For the progress in Neidan, two things are equally important:

 

1) practice

2) theory understanding

 

Just think why there are so many classical books written by Teachers to their students. They wrote not to the crowd, so maybe they understood that without knowledge, real achievements are not possible?

 

My teacher teaches without knowledge, and I found myself brushing against the Mysterious Pass one day without realizing where I had been led. Of course I only realized this after much study and examination of where had been guided, but all of this studying only took me away from the practice of emptiness.

 

Liu Yiming definitely advises one to know the direction one is going fully, and then to go onward without hesitation. That said, how is it possible for one to go beyond what has been written about? Surely we all reach a point where we must trust our own intuition to lead us true. This is what I've learned about the cultivation of Xing - it is greatly important that we hone our intuition so that we may follow the guidance of Heavenly Knowledge, without our Human Knowledge stuck in our minds getting in the way.

 

The oldest one; life

 

You misunderstand the nature of our school.

There is no "conversion" process.

 

You go about your life, your beliefs and your activities as you did.

The truth is unfolded naturally and not by force.

 

From what I understand, one is able to trust the guidance of the Fu Fa Shen to provide the knowledge and guide the way. Thus one may do the practice, without the knowledge getting in the way. It still seems to me like one is missing the cultivation of proper Xing by trusting to the guidance of a single outside force. Part of merging with the Tao is following where it leads and learning to surrender to the Tao as a whole - not a single entity. But hey we all have our destinies. Personally I'd be suspicious of ulterior motives, but I'm naturally cautious like that.

 

Is it just your thoughts or is it something XYP insists on? Because it's even less traditional then ideas about shen-qi-jing or FFS...

 

opendao, one of the basic instructions I receive from the ancient texts is to cultivate flowing with life. One becomes like water and does not build things up artificially, but flows where the tao leads with humility. In this way cultivates in a way that one cannot be stolen from, and in a way that no one can contend with. In this way one merges with the tao, not using Te but saving Te even as one's way unfolds mysteriously. In this way one harmonizes with all. This is very easy to cultivate, it just takes time, and willingness to not desire. After a short time I find my way quite naturally unfolding and leading me deeper into the tao.

 

Keeping "flow with the flow" obviously is not a reverse process.

 

Reversing is simply about undoing Hou Tian. Once we've gone back through our past, gathered and unified our old past, our objective is to maintain our emptiness as we flow through the rest of life which is proceeding forward. We do this simply by merging our Te with Tao and getting out of the way of the operation. By maintaining our connection to the unfolding Tao around us, we preserve our Superior Te and do not need Inferior Te.

 

I don't believe it is about simply getting beyond the reach of Fate. I believe that by following the Tao in this way we may allow our unique shape to wield powerful mechanisms of harmony through which we may heal the world of past karma we imprinted upon it, never mind that we've dissolved the internal karma.

 

In any case there are many ways to reach the tao. I believe it is possible to let the tao guide one there with know knowledge, if one's karma is so aligned. If one follows a framework, it is important to understand the framework of that school. But even though there is only one Tao, there are many frameworks that lead to the Tao. Some methods may contradict other methods, and that's Okay.

 

 

 

 

Anyway... my main question in regards to Xiao Yao Pai is how it overcomes the lack of grounding many in our society have. Seems a lot of extra work would be needed in order to get all that Shen grounded into the body, given how many hold their Shen outside their body already.

[opendao]

So have some people in recent times in your sect achieved Yang shen? If so, how do you know that they have?

 

Yes, and it's pretty obvious when you are inside the school. It's not something you can skip or do not mention :-)

 

For outsiders the only criteria is the level of understanding exposed by such Masters, because on Yangshen level they can clearly and directly understand many things (and do many things). But for this you need to do a lot of researches on your own, then you will see who achieved what.

 

When you see something that contradicts the entire tradition, it's a good chance to doubt such schools and methods. Especially, if you really want to achieve Yangshen.

 

The difference between Yangshen and Yinshen is obvious, but people don't dare to read.

[effilang]

I understand you. This "quietude" approach is not unique, it's everywhere now. And it has no relation to Neidan and Daoist tradition in general.

Keeping "flow with the flow" obviously is not a reverse process.

 

Once again you misunderstand me.

I never spoke about quietude.

 

You create many empty spaces to fill in your favor

 

Keeping "flow with the flow" obviously is not a reverse process.

That depends on the direction of the flow

[Daeluin]

When you see something that contradicts the entire tradition, it's a good chance to doubt such schools and methods. Especially, if you really want to achieve Yangshen.

 

Zhuangzi advises us to follow what is right in front of us, rather than to play games judging things as right or wrong. I think it is good to break through doubt, but ultimately one should avoid getting weighed down by the Metal phase.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Daeluin

[opendao]

opendao, one of the basic instructions I receive from the ancient texts is to cultivate flowing with life.

 

Probably you got it wrong. "Flowing with life" can be achieved on a certain stage, same as "wuwei", "wandering free" and other cool things. But that level is quite high, and it needs a lot of "doing" to reach it. You quoted Liu Yiming in another thread about it.

 

Reversing is simply about undoing Hou Tian. Once we've gone back through our past, gathered and unified our old past, our objective is to maintain our emptiness as we flow through the rest of life which is proceeding forward.

 

No, Fan (reversing) is about Xian Tian. And Xian Tian / Hou Tian is not about our lifespans or time in general.

Read about "likeage". What is leaking? How to reverse this process?

 

Once again you misunderstand me.

I never spoke about quietude.

 

You create many empty spaces to fill in your favor

 

That depends on the direction of the flow

 

You wrote before:

 

There is no rush, no insisting.

Just flow with the way (things are.)

 

This is "quietude". Maybe you don't understand basics about reversing-Fan? Maybe you don't understand that Dao can be different, and not all Dao are the same? The "flow with the way things are" is not the direction Daoist goes, because things go to the death, and this is a Houtian process. I

 

t's ok if you understand it differently, I just explain it for anybody more fortunate in choosing the way to go :-)

 

Zhuangzi advises us to follow what is right in front of us, rather than to play games judging things as right or wrong. I think it is good to break through doubt, but ultimately one should avoid getting weighed down by the Metal phase.

 

Zhuangzi doesn't advises us, he advises his students who achieved a stage when it's possible to "do nothing". But for ordinary people the only way to get truth is to judge and have doubts.

[Daeluin]

Probably you got it wrong. "Flowing with life" can be achieved on a certain stage, same as "wuwei", "wandering free" and other cool things. But that level is quite high, and it needs a lot of "doing" to reach it. You quoted Liu Yiming in another thread about it.

 

Sure, once Superior Te is lost, one must practice Doing to regain it. But that doesn't mean one rigidly controls one's life. Listening to the flow of life and merging with it is a skill one can develop now. Synchronicities manifest when we follow the flow of the tao.

 

 

No, Fan (reversing) is about Xian Tian.

 

Yes, that's what I said. We reverse to cultivate Xian Tian and unify it into emptiness. After that we hold onto the emptiness and avoid letting it follow the process of separation again.

 

And Xian Tian / Hou Tian is not about our lifespans or time in general.

 

The path of reversal includes becoming aware of our past lives so fully that they appear to us as myriad shells of emptiness, which we then merge back into oneness.

 

Read about "likeage". What is leaking? How to reverse this process?

 

Leakage is the use of Te by control. We avoid leaking by not using it. By cultivating our momentum by following right timings and cycles, we are able to flow through all things without having them create expression within our emptiness. The teachings greatly emphasize awareness of cycles and timings, and yet most seem oblivious of cycles as obvious as the waxing and waning of the moon and sun. Timing is everything, and is directly related to flowing.

 

Cultivating the Tao:

There are those who do not understand the Great Tao. They either say that Ming is more important and Xing is less important, or that Xing is more important and Ming is less important. This is all wrong. Xing and Ming must be cultivated together, but in the practice there should be two stages. In superior Te, there is no need to cultivate Ming and one just cultivates Xing: when Xing is fulfilled, then Ming is also fulfilled. In inferior Te, one must first cultivate Ming and then cultivate Xing; after Ming is fulfilled, one must also fulfill Xing. Fulfilling Ming is "doing," fulfilling Xing is "non-doing."

 

So, to repair leaks one cultivates the Ming by "doing," and then cultivates the Xing by "non-doing."

 

Cultivating the Tao:

The Ways of "doing" and "non-doing" are established to provide a starting point to those who possess superior Te or inferior Te. When one comes to fully achieving the Great Tao, not only does the operation of "doing" not apply, but also the operation of "non-doing" does not apply. When one reaches the highest step there is a different wondrous operation, but it does not pertain to either "doing" or "non-doing."

[opendao]

Yes, that's what I said. We reverse to cultivate Xian Tian and unify it into emptiness. After that we hold onto the emptiness and avoid letting it follow the process of separation again.

 

After unifying, you don't need to hold anything because the unity cannot separate any more. Gong is done :-) Or it is a "false elixir".

 

Leakage is the use of Te by control. We avoid leaking by not using it. By cultivating our momentum by following right timings and cycles, we are able to flow through all things without having them create expression within our emptiness.

 

You need to follow timing before you got any "emptiness". Emptiness is further ("refining Shen into the Void"). If by emptiness you mean something different, then please explain. From the phrase above it looks like you think that Shen=Emptiness.

 

Timing is everything, and is directly related to flowing.

 

Correct, but this flowing cannot be done by ordinary people, that's why teacher is needed to give instructions about houhou!!! All other methods and skills don't work to get this understanding. So people who are trying to "flow with Dao" or "to do non-doing" - they're just wasting their time. There are a lot of achievements before your Shen can reach the ability to directly see how Xian Tian works and follow that flow "naturally".