Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[effilang]

Maybe you don't understand basics about reversing-Fan?

 

 

 

In any case there are many ways to reach the tao. I believe it is possible to let the tao guide one there with know knowledge, if one's karma is so aligned. If one follows a framework, it is important to understand the framework of that school. But even though there is only one Tao, there are many frameworks that lead to the Tao. Some methods may contradict other methods, and that's Okay.

 

Indeed. Even the directional flow of Qi within the meridians in our system is of different configurations to that you will find in any alchemical texts. There are, many, many differences between Taoist schools of cultivation. It is unreasonable to believe that one way is the only way and quite frankly rather immature : )

 

Perhaps not at first. But they are ever present and cultivated through not using them up. Simply fasting is all that is needed.

 

I agree with this, but it is the post-natal Jing, Qi, Shen that must be fasted in order to settle the Pre-natal Jing, Qi, Shen so that they don't have to continuously transform to the post-natal qualities in order to manifest life, only then can they congeal and the Yuan Jing can return to the Yuan Qi and the Yuan Qi to the Yuan Shen.

 

The fasting is of the post-natal qualities:

- The Mind (Shen), The Energy and Breath (Qi) and the Physical Body (Jing).

 

When these are regulated and settled through the proper type of "fasting", then the Pre-natal counter parts can combine.

 

In order to get where we intend to go, we must start from where we are; is it not so, or can we simply teleport to our goal?

 

With some systems the order is different.

 

To work with the sexual fluid is dangerous, and I don't see how uniting it with the breath and thoughts will create anything but chaos.

 

When the generative fluid is not stirred, the breath can be calm, when the breath is calm the thoughts will be calm, else they pre-natal qualities will stir and move everytime we think.

 

The body, the breath and the mind, must be calmed, then the pre-natal Jing, Qi and Shen can return to their places and rest in preparation for further refinement.

 

From what I understand, one is able to trust the guidance of the Fu Fa Shen to provide the knowledge and guide the way. Thus one may do the practice, without the knowledge getting in the way. It still seems to me like one is missing the cultivation of proper Xing by trusting to the guidance of a single outside force. Part of merging with the Tao is following where it leads and learning to surrender to the Tao as a whole - not a single entity. But hey we all have our destinies. Personally I'd be suspicious of ulterior motives, but I'm naturally cautious like that.

 

It does not matter whether your teacher is physical or non-physical, of this dimension or the other, you still have to do the cultivation yourself and put in the effort. So it makes no difference in that respect. Skepticism is healthy and you are free to question or doubt your FFS

 

Anyway... my main question in regards to Xiao Yao Pai is how it overcomes the lack of grounding many in our society have. Seems a lot of extra work would be needed in order to get all that Shen grounded into the body, given how many hold their Shen outside their body already.

 

We perform a Shen Gong guided by Fu Fa Shen, which rapidly converts the Wuji energy into a Taiji energy the body can contain within the meridian network. A type of step-down transformation process. The lao gong and yongquan points are also opened very early after the initiation for most people.

Edited August 1, 2014 by effilang

[Daeluin]

 

Leakage is the use of Te by control. We avoid leaking by not using it. By cultivating our momentum by following right timings and cycles, we are able to flow through all things without having them create expression within our emptiness.

 

You need to follow timing before you got any "emptiness". Emptiness is further ("refining Shen into the Void"). If by emptiness you mean something different, then please explain. From the phrase above it looks like you think that Shen=Emptiness.

 

I agree. Not sure where the miscommunication happened, I don't see those implications from the quote, but that's OK.

 

Correct, but this flowing cannot be done by ordinary people, that's why teacher is needed to give instructions about houhou!!! All other methods and skills don't work to get this understanding. So people who are trying to "flow with Dao" or "to do non-doing" - they're just wasting their time. There are a lot of achievements before your Shen can reach the ability to directly see how Xian Tian works and follow that flow "naturally".

 

Hmm, what is houhou?

 

As for the rest, sounds interesting, but I believe people in society should be educated to flow with tao regardless of their level, and I wouldn't be surprised if when this is cultivated at higher levels it leads truly. But then I'm anything but an ordinary person. OH... I mean I'm completely ordinary.

[LaoZiDao]

Hmm, what is houhou?

 

As for the rest, sounds interesting, but I believe people in society should be educated to flow with tao regardless of their level, and I wouldn't be surprised if when this is cultivated at higher levels it leads truly. But then I'm anything but an ordinary person. OH... I mean I'm completely ordinary.

 

Houhou would be 'Phases of Fire'.

 

In an ideal world all people should follow Dao, but it is not going to happen and has not happened for thousands of years.

 

Out of 1000 people who try to achieve Dao, 1000 will fail.

 

No society can be educated about Dao, Master transmit to Student...person to person... not Master transmit to society.

[opendao]

 

This is the principal schema of XYP teaching, isn't it? Everything upside down, and modern inventions instead of any traditional knowledge. Change your logo, fellow, this one is a real deal

Edited August 1, 2014 by opendao

[effilang]

Even if that was the case, which it is not; you still have no experience of the schools' guided art, that you can discuss against or for it with any credibility. Direct experience is paramount for a complete understanding of the method.

 

Most importantly though, you would realise that hidden in its differences is where the commonality lies,but you must pierce through the superficial appearance with experience, to realise it.

 

Until then this exchange of words between us will always miss it's targets.

Edited August 1, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

Even if that was the case, which it is not; you still have no experience of the schools' guided art, that you can discuss against or for it with any credibility. Direct experience is paramount for a complete understanding of the method.

 

The specific Neidan experience leads to a clear understanding of Neidan concepts, that are very similar between different schools (Neidan schools of course). That's what I don't see here at all, and your "words of wisdom" just confirm that.

[zerostao]

"The difference between Yangshen and Yinshen is obvious, but people don't dare to read."

opendao feel free to pm to me your elucidation on this if you feel it is too daring for many members to read.

or were you just dodging ish's direct question?

i am interested to hear what you have to say about this and other things that you have brought up.

 

i also see that you liked LaoZiDao's "Out of 1000 people who try to achieve Dao, 1000 will fail." what an attitude and approach that is. what type of results do you achieve that way?

 

we all have different backgrounds and experiences on this board. and many members here are open to hear about new concepts and we also have a few that are very narrow and restricted in their view that refuse to accept that anyone other than their school has 'the only one true way'. XYP has never ever said that XYP is the only way.

When I first saw the little plain brown paper bag announcement about the XYP Initiation event, the fact that they were not making grandiose claims about the school or method was part of the allure for me. I had grown tired of hearing different schools claiming that they were the one true only way and the super powers one could gain if you joined there school hahaha

but guess what?? my experiences at the initiation and since have been beyond my imagination. such things i never ever considered or had encountered previously.

they didnt even charge for it, i just had to get there, which is another topic for another time lol but i did get there and i am very grateful that i did.

[zerostao]

about a year after my initiation i started posting about XYP and my experiences here on TTB. I was faced with the same criticisms as are being expressed on this thread, one member that was always very cordial, and very well versed in Taoist canon that was saying things similar to the criticisms we read here was Effilang. but for some reason Effilang did try XYP out for himself and there is a change in his view now. interesting, isnt it?

i always had a great respect for Effilang and his knowledge of Taoist practices were far greater than mine. Effilang was one of the members whose posts i always enjoyed to read. One thing that was obvious to me was Effilang's posts were based on his knowledge from the classics and his own practices and experiences, if i recall, correctly , he was thinking of joining some temple , maybe even a Buddhist one idk and it doesnt matter really to me , except that it shows how he was determined and dedicated and had an affinity to find the way that would suit him am improve his life. Now a year later it is Effilang that once questioned very frankly about XYP but after his initiation he is now posting about XYP.

Many members here have greater knowledge of what is written in the classic books than i have or that i will ever have. if you want to rely only on books, thats your choice. if you feel you need a real life in person teacher to guide you, again that is your choice. but consider this, the masters that wrote the books, who were their guides? your current teacher, who is his guide?

 

from my pov, the ones of you who refuse to accept anything except what is taught only by your school, i am not trying at all to reach out to you. your opinions are already formed and you are confined by dogma, your beliefs and faiths. i speak about this from time to time under the topic of mental illusion.

Effilang had the guts to to enter XYP with an open mind. we are now in the same clan and i still marvel at some of the things he shares with me.

[Daeluin]

Yikes. Some of y'all cling to righteousness so strongly you are also doomed to fail. Lighten up a little and let the tao lead you or you'll end up too heavy to get anywhere. Righteousness should be based on social harmony, and thus just without bias. This is a way of balancing.

 

As for attaining Tao, I don't think it's about trying to force anything, but leading a life of harmony with your environment and resolving karma. Over time you'll reach a lifetime when you are meant to move on. Those who force it are probably just going against the Tao.

 

This is what resonates with me. It is neither right nor wrong.

[opendao]

"The difference between Yangshen and Yinshen is obvious, but people don't dare to read."

opendao feel free to pm to me your elucidation on this if you feel it is too daring for many members to read.

or were you just dodging ish's direct question?

 

I meant people don't read and understand classical books, so they don't know the difference. This is a direct answer to many illusions about XYP's terminology and concepts.

 

i am interested to hear what you have to say about this and other things that you have brought up.

 

i also see that you liked LaoZiDao's "Out of 1000 people who try to achieve Dao, 1000 will fail." what an attitude and approach that is. what type of results do you achieve that way?

 

Don't you get yet that Dao is not a religion? LaoziDao's approach is a traditional one, and numerous teachers of the past explained it in details.

 

about a year after my initiation i started posting about XYP and my experiences here on TTB. I was faced with the same criticisms as are being expressed on this thread, one member that was always very cordial, and very well versed in Taoist canon that was saying things similar to the criticisms we read here was Effilang. but for some reason Effilang did try XYP out for himself and there is a change in his view now. interesting, isnt it?

 

Not really. I see a boring strategy to cover the lack of knowledge by avoiding hard questions and by promoting values that are pleasant for the modern society, but are not traditional at all. Daoist schools are very numerous and their approaches can look different for outsiders, but their core is the same. So when you know the core, it's clear who is who.

 

Main concerns about XYP, not only mine, are:

 

1) using Neidan terminology and pretending to be "esoteric Taoism", but every single word XYP uses is just to cover Qigong methodology. There are a lot of new schools in China who do the same (Falungong for example), but it doesn't mean that is right. It's misleading.

 

2) FFS is not Yangshen by definition and description, and such things are not used in Neidan at all. They are dangerous and lead to an opposite direction. Read something about 鬼仙 (ghost immortal) to expand your knowledge a bit more. FFS is not an XYP's invention, such things were practised long before. But this fact doesn't make them better.

 

I don't write it to discuss. For me everything is pretty clear. But people are confused, and the story about Effilang highlights it in full

 

And I don't tell that "our school is the best", stop your boring political games. I only tell that there is Dao teaching as a system, and the XYP is not Dao teaching by its core concepts.

Edited August 1, 2014 by opendao

[opendao]

Yikes. Some of y'all cling to righteousness so strongly you are also doomed to fail. Lighten up a little and let the tao lead you or you'll end up too heavy to get anywhere. Righteousness should be based on social harmony, and thus just without bias. This is a way of balancing.

 

As for attaining Tao, I don't think it's about trying to force anything, but leading a life of harmony with your environment and resolving karma. Over time you'll reach a lifetime when you are meant to move on. Those who force it are probably just going against the Tao.

 

This is what resonates with me. It is neither right nor wrong.

 

It's not Neidan. You read about "doing" and "non-doing" but it looks like you missed the point of "doing".

 

In the tradition things cannot be right and wrong at the same time :-)

Edited August 1, 2014 by opendao

[zerostao]

"I meant people don't read and understand classical books,"

thank you for that clarification, that does make more sense to me.

 

"Don't you get yet that Dao is not a religion? "

opendao, show me one time where i said that Tao was a religion. spiritual and religion are 2 different things.

 

"And I don't tell that "our school is the best", stop your boring political games."

i never said that you did say that. i dont even know what school you belong to. why do you even comment to it?

but here on ttb there have been those that did say that. i wont say who, becoz just about everyone knows already. i was referencing how i came to make my decision.

 

"I don't write it to discuss." thats a bit disappointing . i was hoping we could discuss.

 

 

@rbv, "zero, do you know the answer yourself?" good question.

[effilang]

You make a lot of claims and assumptions about our school, but behind all that, still lies the undeniable truth; that you have no direct experience of our schools' method of cultivation. Because of this your pronouncements are nothing more than unsubstantiated conjecture.

 

FFS is not Yangshen by definition and description, and such things are not used in Neidan at all.

 

On the contrary. Perhaps you just haven't gotten to this stage yet. Neither have I using Hou Tian Xiu.

Yet, it is a simple feat to achieve in our school using Xian Tian Xiu.

 

After the postnatal San Bao mix with the Pre-natal Yang Shen and the Yin Shen finally fuses with the Yang Shen in the Shang Dan Tien to create the awakened immortal, then one will have the opportunity to advance their practice through further education in the non-physical dimension. This is also part of the later stages of Neidan.

 

I guess not everything is written in the traditional classics, huh?

Sadly, you'll have to resort to stigmatizing that statement I suppose, like everything else that you haven't yet experienced

 

Your mind is truly rigid for a Taoist.

 

One of the main differences between starting from the Hou Tian point of cultivation and turning back to cultivate the Xian Tian state, is that when one reaches this point and the awakened immortal is ready to come out, with most people the awakened Yang Shen immortal is vulnurable to external influences. During initiation with Xiao Yao Pai, there is a divine golden aura of Wuji energy which envelops the Tao Yu. It promotes the return to the Xian Tian state and additionally wards off any negative energetic influences from Yin entities. The aura stays with you until you decide to terminate your connection with the school. This aura also protects the awakened immortal so that it can explore the dimensions with a reduced threat and without the mandatory requirements for extra periods of incubation to mature the young Yang Shen, or as my friend calls it; the baby yang shen : )

Most people cannot detect the golden aura if they have developed using only basic Taiji methods such as Qigong, as the auras energy is beyond Taiji. Very few people can see it, and they always remain in awe.

 

 

 

 

In terms of Yin Shen vs Yang Shen.

The Yin aspect of the Shen complex, even when brought to it's respective completion is not the final stage of cultivation possible with the Hou Tian body. This achievement is only partial.

 

Yin Shen is purely a subtle energy form. You will be free of the body and can detach from the reincarnative influence of Taiji so that you can avoid the physical realm and you may advance in the non-physical realm, but without a complete merger of Yin Shen and Yang Shen within the alchemical laboratory of the Hou Tian body, such achievements are said to go only as far as the Gui Xian.

 

There is a reason why the consciousness enters the physical body.

It needs needs its ingredients and alchemical substance to create the necessary concotions required to fully persist in the divine realm.

Those who fail, will need to try again.

As it is said; the problem is that you think you have time.

 

We must practice dilligently.

Yin Shen vibrates low enough that it can still be picked up by the human eyes, but it cannot interact with the physical environment due to it's lack of Yang energy. It CAN interact with the Shen of another person, but to do so, one must reduce their awareness and consciousness to a level where the Yin Shen can effectively interface on a similar frequency and assume control. This is similar to what you will find in shamanic traditions where you often have to go into a trance to contact the non-physical dimension.

A Yang Shen spirit is different from this.

It is the result of the completion stage of the Hou Tian body's cultivation and is the product of the combined Yin Shen and Yang Shen essence of the cultivator, or if you will, the assimilated Yin Shen and the now remaining, Yang Shen.

The picture I posted above is of a baby Yang Shen, this is the reverse birth of Xian Tian state as opposed to the forward birth of the human child in the Hou Tian state, which will always lead to a full rotation of the Taiji and the death of the corporeal body.

The Yang Shen body possess both polarities, the potential of the Wuji and the will of the mind, which allow it to manifest both in Taiji and in Wuji simultaneously and in unlimited numbers. It's different from the Yin Shen in that it does not need for the body/mind to be in a state of trance or reduced awareness so that it can interface with it or interact with it; it can directly interact with the Taiji realm and the human Shen, Qi and Jing while the human remains in a complete aware state.

In our path, the Yang Shen is cultivated immediately after initiation and is gradually awakened from its dormant state with each following session.

Yin Shen is not Qing Jing and cannot teach a person how to purify himself to the highest level.
Our Fu Fa Shen is not a Gui, Ren, Di or Xian, but a Tian Xian.

Here is a picture of our Grandmaster initiating 3 Quan Zhen 全真 "Complete Perfection" Tao Shi (Taoist Priest) from Tian Hou Gong (Tian Hou Temple)

 

 

Think about why Quan Zhen priests who specialise in Neidan and dual cultivation of Xing and Ming would be inheriting Tao Yin Shu through Xiao Yao Pai if our method was so anti-Taoism?

 

Perhaps it is time to stop reading books alone...

 

You remind me of a meeting of Laozi and Kongfuzi, Opendao : )

 

Confucius visited Laozi dressed in formal elaborate robes to discuss matters of ceremonial etiquette and tried to explain his belief that new knowledge must be based upon old knowledge...but was interrupted by the old master:

 

Laozi: "The men of whom you speak are long since dead and their bones are turned to ashes in their graves."

 

Laozi: "Put away your polite airs and your vain display of fine robes. The wise man does not display his treasures to those he does not know. And he cannot learn justice from the Ancients."

 

Confucius: "Why not?"

Laozi: "The swan does not need to bathe daily to remain white." then abruptly ended the meeting.

Confucius later said onto his disciples: "I know that birds can fly and fish can swim and beasts can run. Snares can be set for things that run, nets for those that swim and arrows for whatever flies. But who knows how Dragons ride the wind and cloud up into the sky. Today I saw Laozi. What a Dragon!'"

 

Tai Shang Lao Jun, the treasurer and keeper of spirits, is our highest accomplished one in Xiao Yao Pai

He is the consciousness of Laozi and the one to whom we make the request during initiation to assign the immortal spirits to the new Tao Yu in order to guide them on the way back to reality.

 

Don't believe anything I have to say? I'm glad to hear it!

 

By all means doubt me. I encourage it; but when you are ready to find out the truth behind my statements, come to an initiation and verify it for yourself

Edited August 5, 2014 by effilang

[Daeluin]

Liu Yiming calls the Xian Tian / Yuan Jing/Qi/Shen a Yin expression, which seems to agree with your description of Yin Shen. He also calls the Hou Tian Jing/Qi/Shen a Yang expression (which makes sense).

 

But other than that, your description of "Yang Shen" matches his description of the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixir, and the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. It is the root of the Hou Tian San Bao, the ruler of the Xian Tian San Bao, and something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven.

 

As for XYP, I'm happy it works for you, and I'm happy I've found the path that works for me as well.

[opendao]

On the contrary. Perhaps you just haven't gotten to this stage yet. Neither have I using Hou Tian Xiu.

Yet, it is a simple feat to achieve in our school using Xian Tian Xiu.

 

After the postnatal San Bao mix with the Pre-natal Yang Shen and the Yin Shen finally fuses

 

This phrase alone has no sense in Neidan. See Daeluin's reply as well.

 

So the rest of your long speech has not too much sense.

 

My concern is not about experience, it's very usual for qigong what you describe, even what you describe as "FFS guides you". But my concern is about methodology and terms you used in a weird way.

 

Ask FFS to explain it to you that Yin Shen and Yang Shen don't need to be "fused".

 

By all means doubt me. I encourage it; but when you are ready to find out the truth behind my statements, come to an initiation and verify it for yourself

 

Guys, you are like drug dealers: "come to us, come to us"...

[zerostao]

"Guys, you are like drug dealers:"

really opendao ? do you ever see any XYP members bad mouthing any other schools or systems on any of these threads on TTB? XYP respects other schools, we are not critical or insulting to anyone. I had been hoping we could have a discussion here and I welcomed your questions and concerns. but, I will not continue to discuss with those who will drop to the level of insults, I think your own words are sufficient to reveal your character, Te, tactics, and level of your shen.

edit>> and there are no other schools or systems on ttb trying to recruit members or students?

only XYP is doing this? cmon man, lets keep a certain standard of civility here, ok? surely we can have a decent constructive discussion.

Edited August 2, 2014 by zerostao

[opendao]

"Guys, you are like drug dealers:"

really opendao ? do you ever see any XYP members bad mouthing any other schools or systems on any of these threads on TTB? XYP respects other schools, we are not critical or insulting to anyone. I had been hoping we could have a discussion here and I welcomed your questions and concerns. but, I will not continue to discuss with those who will drop to the level of insults, I think your own words are sufficient to reveal your character, Te, tactics, and level of your shen.

edit>> and there are no other schools or systems on ttb trying to recruit members or students?

only XYP is doing this? cmon man, lets keep a certain standard of civility here, ok? surely we can have a decent constructive discussion.

 

There is nothing to discuss, your posts are just to protect your business and mind view. Keep recruiting

[Daeluin]

3

Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons,

so that the people shall not strive for fame and credit;

Refrain from artificially valuing rare goods,

so that the people shall not steal;

Refrain from presenting things that arouse desires,

so that people's hearts shall not be disturbed.

Therefore, Sages manage things as follows:

Cleansing people's hearts of the abundance of desires,

Replenishing the Lower Dantien with Qi,

Making people's hearts become peaceful and tolerant,

thus, strengthening their physical constitution naturally.

Always keeping people innocent of much contriving and desires,

thus the guileful person shall be afraid of acting beyond the normal standards.

By handling affairs with the principle of following Tao's Natural Way,

everything can be cone in a perfect manner.

Tao Te Ching, tl Hu Xuezhi

[Daeluin]

The second last chapter of Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao speaks on the importance of Internal and External Companions:

 

 

.........

 

The internal companions are "the men who do not die" from the land of Kan, in the southwest. They support a firm and bold Breath (qi), possess a correct and upright body, embrace a resolute and stable ability, hold the scale of giving and taking life, and keep the handle of life and death. They remove evil and support goodness, reward the good ones and punish the evils ones. They turn calamity into fortune and transform the inauspicious into the auspicious, so that the internal demons do not have a chance to be born, and the external demons dare not approach. Thus they defend your Xing and your Ming, and set in motion creation and transformation. Among the gods they are the Numinous Officers; among the constellations they are Celestial Net; among the directions they are the Metal star.

 

If those who practice the great cultivation take them as companions, and are of one heart with them and join their intention with them, they can charge the internal companions with their own Xing and Ming, and Xing and Ming can be kept intact; they can entrust the internal companions with creation and transformation, and the course of creation and transformation can be inverted.

 

The internal companions open the Gate of Heaven and close the Door of the Earth, guard the Gate of Man and shut the Path of the Demons. They use the mechanism of taking life but seek the mechanism of giving life. Thus you can expect to reverse Yin and Yang.

 

For these reasons, you might do without external companions, but can never be without internal companions. If you lose your internal companions, your Xing is in disorder and your Ming is shaken, your mind is deluded and your spirit is obscured. The Xian Tian is lost and the Hou Tian comes forth, you exit life and enter death, and demons of all sorts appear everywhere.

 

Therefore being connected with companions who have the same mind is the most important thing in the cultivation of the Tao. However, companions who share the same mind are very difficult to discern. They have no form and no image, no sound and no color, no front and no back. Facing evil, they transform themselves into yakshas; facing goodness, they transform themselves into bodhisattvas. Their transformations have no limit: they conceal or manifest themselves in unfathomable ways. Everyone has them in front of their eyes, but misses them. If you are unwilling to discern the true, day after day they increasingly separate from you.

 

When all of a sudden an intimate friend appears, you become of one mind with him: walking, standing, sitting, or lying, neither of you separates from the other for a single instant. In addition, you also find external companions, and you all advise and encourage one another. With the help of the internal and the external companions, both the Reverted Elixir and the Great Elixir can be achieved.

 

 

However, finding internal companions is certainly difficult, and finding external companions is also not easy. Unless you have great efficacy and great conduct, and unless you have great fortune and great predestination, you cannot have both. Those who intend to cultivate Reality might be without external companions, but should never be without internal companions. Through the internal companions one attains the dharma-body (fashen); through the external companions one defends the illusory body (huanshen).

 

It is my interpretation that Liu Yiming refers to our ability to connect to (through attraction or awareness of) higher level Spirit Guardians, Ancestors, Immortals, and forces of Nature. These are our guides, and they naturally come to us as we make effort at cultivating ourselves, as like attracts like. There is a wonderful example of how this process naturally unfolds here. Thanks Horus, I hope you don't mind the uninvited reference.

 

So in requesting a Fu Fa Shen in the tradition of Xiao Yao Pai, I think one works at directly gaining access to one of the highest level "Internal Companions" one might find, and thereby fast-laning it to the top. Perhaps this is the destiny of some, and it is great for a tradition like this to be present.

 

However, I don't think it is about the destination, but about the journey, making companions, making gradual progress along the way and using our virtue to contribute to the world and universe as we progress. These ideas of starting from the top down in regards to cultivation seem viable, but in this very thread we see top-heavy effects of this style of cultivation. There is a sense of zeal, ambition, and "our way is best" conveyed in the descriptions in this thread. I do not believe this is entirely intentional, rather this is an outcome of cultivating from the top down method. Perhaps this is merely intentional, as a marketing technique to spread the word and draw others to the school. But even then this seems very mis-guided. Not everyone is karmically prepared to make such a journey, especially in the fast-lane. Perhaps times are changing, and through a great awakening many will need the services of this Tradition and be able to make proper use of them. If this is not the case, it is also possible that many might become drawn to the school who cannot properly benefit from such a powerful guide, and the gift instead becomes a burden. Generally we cannot know these things, and it is best to allow change to unfold naturally, without using techniques to tempt others towards what one believes to be the best way.

 

Liu Yiming doesn't say directly to start with the Jing first, in this book. But he does emphasize laying a foundation, and gradual progress. As does the Tao Te Ching, especially in regards to not building things up, for then they can be brought down. Thus one is encouraged to behave like water, and with humility always flowing to and filling the low places, one is encouraged to avoid clinging to what is right, but to concede first, and avoid contention, and to be like the valley spirit.

 

What is the meaning of laying the foundations for refining oneself? "Oneself" means your selfish desires, your egoism, and your selfhood. "Foundations" means having an actual ground, a root. People do not succeed in attaining the Tao because of their egoism and selfhood. When there are egoism and selfhood, you are filled with a selfish mind and cannot walk on an actual ground. A thousand devils and a hundred obstacles obstruct the Sacred Lair; at every step you find obstacles and hindrances, and in every pursuit you get stuck in the mud. The six bandits are ravenous beasts, and the seven emotions are a gang of accomplishes: they deplete your goodness of mind, damage your true Xing, and shake your natal destiny. When the spirit is obscured and the breath is impure, wherever you go there are only errant thoughts and an erroneous mind. How could you promote virtue and cultivate merit, and attain the Great Tao?

 

Our ancestral masters taught that one should first of all lay the foundations for refining oneself. This is because they wanted us to perform the whole practice from an actual ground, in order to rise from what is below to what is above, and to reach the deep from the shallow using the operation of gradual progress.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Daeluin

[effilang]

There is nothing to discuss, your posts are just to protect your business and mind view. Keep recruiting

 

A business, with only 2 working days in the year?

Yeah, thats a really solid business plan you got there - haha.

 

We are actualy a registered NPO...

 

If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from resorting to derogatory statements and name calling; surely you can be civil?

 

I didn't hear you comment anything about the picture I posted of our grandmaster initiating Quanzhen priests?

 

You do know that Quanzhen specialise in Neidan right? - Yet, these priests from one of the main branches of Taoism (as well as others we've initiated) can all seamlessly incorporate Tao Yin Shu into their practice without any conflict to the teachings, and I'll tell you why; because there is no conflict, but you can't see that, because you grasp on to the superficial.

 

"Recruiting" - for what?

 

After an initiation, a Tao Yu can leave and never engage in any form of communication or contact with any members of our school if he so chooses to. Regardless, this does not hinder them from advancing with our system on their own, at their own pace and at their own discretion, through Fu Fa Shen. All one needs to do is simply request Fu Fa Shen's presence. It is on duty after all.

 

There is no need to try to inject these petty doses of malicious shots here and there. You are ambitiously trying to distort our schools image, but you're never going to be able to do it, because you have no direct experience of the defining art of our system; Tao Yin Shu. Until you've had an opportunity to verify whether what I say is false or true, you're just a speculator.

 

Only a fool would claim he knows what he has no personal knowledge of. I'd like to think that you are not at this level.

 

This phrase alone has no sense in Neidan. See Daeluin's reply as well.

 

Which part of it should I see. The part he agreed with me, or the part he agreed with me?

And "that" phrase has plenty to do with Neidan.

 

My concern is not about experience..

 

Ok then , rely on your faith and your beliefs. I'll stick to direct experience before I decide make up my mind about anything. To each his own.

 

 

Liu Yiming calls the Xian Tian / Yuan Jing/Qi/Shen a Yin expression, which seems to agree with your description of Yin Shen. He also calls the Hou Tian Jing/Qi/Shen a Yang expression (which makes sense). But other than that, your description of "Yang Shen" matches his description of the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixir, and the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. It is the root of the Hou Tian San Bao, the ruler of the Xian Tian San Bao, and something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven. As for XYP, I'm happy it works for you, and I'm happy I've found the path that works for me as well.

 

 

Right. As I had mentioned before the commonality of our arts, lies beneath the surface.

Sadly, some people, cough-cough, can't see beneath it.

 

If you are an admirer of Liu Yimings' findings, you will appreciate what I said before in that, when the subtle alchemical ingredients of the formed postnatal San Bao are transmuted and then combined with the alchemical ingredients of the formless prenatal San Bao; their fusion will bring about the state of what he calls the "precelestial breath of unity", which is beyond the aforementioned as it is a result of their fusion as opposed to their separation.

 

That is to say that there are two transmutations taking place here. A lesser one and a greater one.

 

The prenatal Yang quality resides within the postnatal Yin quality as Kan ☵. That is how we can use the physical body as a laboratory to extract the prenatal Yang and this is why consciousness enters it. This is the Hou Tian state, the birth of Yang.

 

To reverse the process, the prenatal Yang which is hidden between the postnatal Yin Yao of Kan must be combined with postnal Li ☲. During this interaction the prenatal Yin and Yang separate and energetically exchange places creating the outer alchemical agent. This is the result of combining the postnatal san bao of Li and Kan and this is the first transmutation and involves "doing". This is unity, but not GREAT UNITY.

 

For this process to take place, the fire of the heart (Li) must be directed into the lower dan tian so it can mingle with Kan. But since there is no way to do this physically, we use the intention and the eyes, which are connected to the heart (where Li resides) and can direct the spirit's influence. This way Li can be directed to Kan under the navel.

 

When the Fire mixes with the Water, the postnatal Jing will stop flowing down and out of the genital organs and the postnatal Shen will stop rising up and out of the eyes. The fire (Li) of the Shen will then scortch the water (Kan) of the Jing to produce vapor (Qi) and will soon lead to the first unity of the poscelestial San Bao; the outer alchemical agent.

 

This will produce the white light of lesser unification (Yin Qi) and is the first internal birth; the result of the mixing of Kan and Li.

The second birth, does not involve "doing" or movement or direction. It happens naturally as a result of the first birth and manifests as the golden light of Yang Qi to form the inner alchemical agent.

 

When these two mix together, Yin Qi and Yang Qi or (Kan ☵ + Li ☲) + (Qian ☰ + Kun ☷) = then you will get GREAT UNITY or what Liu Yiming calls the precelestial breath of unity, the result of the union of post celestial san bao with precelestial san bao to produce the immortal embryo, fetus and child.

 

This alchemical transformation is what brings about what he calls true Unity, not just unity, but true Unity.

Because with only unity, or the first birth, or the outer alchemical agent, you will get only partially to the goal.

 

This is the fusion of true Yin and true Yang which bring about true Unity, which is not of the Taiji but of the Wuji.

 

There are two births or refinements, first of Kan and Li (postnatal, false Yin and Yang) and then of Kun and Qian (prenatal true Yin and Yang); after which there is a great union.

 

The core is the same... but Fu Fa Shen's approach is very individual due to our differences in psychological, energetic, physical and spiritual make up : )

Edited August 3, 2014 by effilang

[effilang]

There is a sense of zeal, ambition, and "our way is best" conveyed in the descriptions in this thread.

 

That is never my intention and not a tenet of our school.

 

What may come across as ambition is really just my sincere enthusiasm in giving serious practitioners an opportunity to experience a system that is capable of helping and supporting their cultivation from the very place they seek to be.

 

I remember reading about alchemy a long time ago and the author was explaining how he began to cry as he was writing the discriptions of some of the methods, because it reminded him of how hard it was and how many mistakes he had to make to finally find a method that worked. It is from a similar place that my enthusiasm spawns

 

I've always said that initiation is nothing more than an opportunity to verify the explanations of our school.

An opportunity to say, "these guys are talking bullshit" or "wow, they weren't kidding."

 

How much more can you give a person?

 

Initiated or not, we are all tasked with the heavy duty of self-cultivation, and not everyone has access to a teacher or can afford to pay one for the rest of their natural life.

 

Fu Fa Shen is an incredibly convenient bridge from Taiji to Wuji whereby anyone cultivating neidan will be able to use it's wisdom to expedite the process and receive safety, protection and guidance where it would otherwise be difficult to have.

 

Our way is certainly not the best way or the only way, but it is the most efficient and straight-forward in my own experience, because nothing beats having a teacher that knows what they are doing.

 

Everyone can come to test our truth. For 2 days in the year anyway : )

Nothing beats personal experience.

Edited August 3, 2014 by effilang

[Daeluin]

That is never my intention and not a tenet of our school.

 

What may come across as ambition is really just my sincere enthusiasm in giving serious practitioners an opportunity to experience a system that is capable of helping and supporting their cultivation from the very place they seek to be.

 

I hear you, and I believe this is sincere.

 

I've always said that initiation is nothing more than an opportunity to verify the explanations of our school.

 

An opportunity to say, "these guys are talking bullshit" or "wow, they weren't kidding."

 

Why worry about external validation? What do you have to prove? What's wrong if others think it's bullshit?

The feel I get from your words is that there is something to prove. I don't believe you have anything to prove, and yet it is coming across in they way you speak, and the way you build your school up.

 

Remember, what is built up must be defended, and will draw contention. Which has been happening. The very nature of the title of the thread - this vs that, is posed to draw contention.

 

So what is it that your enthusiasm is trying to prove? Why can't it be sincere and enthusiastic with humility, rather than the arrogance of "Xian Tian" is better than "Hou Tian"? This is subtle - your defense of contention is very careful and if not humble, then gracious and accommodating, and you are very cordial and respectful.

 

How much more can you give a person?

 

Unconditional trust that they will find their own path, against all odds, without needing a higher power.

 

You are certainly allowing this, but your invitation is posed as though they have an opportunity to see why your way is better, and that it is most definitely better if they will only give it a try. Have you said this might not be a good path for some people, or encouraged them to search deep in their hearts for their true path? When confronted you encouraged people to doubt you and when ready come to test your truth by initiation. You aren't trying to empower people, you're trying to entice them into a special club. I don't think this is what you intend to be doing, but this is what I hear in your invitations.

 

Everyone can come to test our truth. For 2 days in the year anyway : )

Nothing beats personal experience.

 

Again, you present your tradition on a pedestal and invite others to test it.

 

Let me tell you, we are all unique, and it is very important for us to search inside for our paths. Inviting a Tian Xian Immortal to guide us is not a trivial matter and will have a incredible effect on one's life path. This should be considered seriously and not presented so cheaply. Not cheap, not exalted, it should be respected and presented clearly as it is.

 

Why not present your school with the truths, with the enthusiasm, but without the "us vs them" attitude, and without the pedestal? Why not encourage searching inside to feel if this path is right for them. Your school has some very important gifts to offer, and when people search inside themselves they will realize this. But they way you present this energetically, you are triggering reactions in people who are sensitive enough to feel the way you exalt this tradition, which will make things more difficult to discern. Chapter 3 of Tao Te Ching speaks to this.

 

 

But really, what I sense from you is straight from the I Ching:

 

 

 

28

Excess of the Great

 

Excess of the great means there is an excess of yang energy. As for the qualities of the hexagram, above is lake ☱, joyous, and below is wind ☴, entering. Going along with what is inside, delighting in externals, following what one desires, when happiness culminates it produces grief. In the body of the hexagram, inside are four yangs and outside are two yins; yang exceeds yin, and yin does not come up to yang -- therefor it is called excess of the great.

 

This hexagram represents harmonious blending of the medicinal substances, in which fullness requires use of emptiness. If follows on the previous hexagram nurturance of the great. In nurturance of the great, one is strong yet can stop and be still; stilling strength, not letting yang energy get too excessive, is properly the means to nurture strength.

 

In spiritual alchemy, the path of the gold elixir, we take two times eight ounces of the polar energies and congeal them into an embryo; it requires that the great and small be undamaged, and both realms be complete. If yang energy is too strong and yin energy too weak, then yin and yang are not in harmony, and you lose the path of continual renewal; when yin culminates there will be decay , and when yang culminates there will be deterioration -- going on in this way, the trouble of "the ridgepole bending" and breaking is inevitable. When the ridgepole snaps, the whole house falls down. In the same way, practitioners of the Tao who promote yang too much, who do not know when enough is enough, who can be great but cannot be small, suffer damage to their spiritual house.

 

If you can proceed breezily without becoming too intense, being harmonious and easygoing without clinging, mastering the ability to adapt to changes, preventing danger and being aware of perils, then firmness and flexibility will correspond, yin and yang will balance each other: Though great, you can avoid excess, so that it is beneficial to go somewhere - consummating essence and perfecting life, you develop without hindrance.

 

Liu Yiming / Cleary / Taoist I Ching

 

You proceed breezily but your enthusiasm is spilling over the edges a bit. You feel harmonious and easy going to me, but you also seem to be clinging to something here. You adapt, but not fully. You have cultivated greatness, I can feel that - but you seem to have trouble avoiding excess.

 

Those who cultivate the tao flow like water and place themselves beneath others, never daring to be ahead of anything else, precisely because to not do so is to acknowledge their own power and cause it to overflow in excess. By not acknowledging our own greatness, we have no trouble being small and no trouble continuing to be filled without filling up. Thus those who cultivate the Tao are so humble they effect change upon the world without being acknowledged for causing it.

 

You seem to be on a great path, and I admire this. I am thankful for the knowledge you have shared here, I've found it helpful, and appreciate the time you have taken to carefully write things out. So in return I just wish to share the above with you, from what I sense on a subtle level. If you see any truth in this, if it resonates with you, maybe it can help you go deeper. Otherwise it is likely just my ego being sensitive and reacting to things, so please disregard. Either way, blessings and care on your journey.

[opendao]

 

Liu Yiming calls the Xian Tian / Yuan Jing/Qi/Shen a Yin expression, which seems to agree with your description of Yin Shen. He also calls the Hou Tian Jing/Qi/Shen a Yang expression (which makes sense).

 

Liu Yiming doesn't claim that xiantian is Yinshen and houtian is Yangshen, so he speaks about absolutely other polarities.

 

Yin and Yang are very different depending the context, I don't see any support here for effilang's ideas.

 

But other than that, your description of "Yang Shen" matches his description of the Xian Tian Breath of True Unity, or the Golden Elixir, and the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. It is the root of the Hou Tian San Bao, the ruler of the Xian Tian San Bao, and something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven.

 

It's correct about Liu Yiming, he speaks about Yangshen on a certain stage, but in effilang's description you see a statement that cannot be supported by Liu Yiming: "fuse of Yin Shen and Yang Shen". And this is important.

[opendao]

A business, with only 2 working days in the year?

Yeah, thats a really solid business plan you got there - haha.

 

We are actualy a registered NPO...

 

If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from resorting to derogatory statements and name calling; surely you can be civil?

 

I wrote what I see. If your NPO is unprofitable, it doesn't make you different. Business is not only about money, but mostly about what is important for you in your life. After 800 long posts I think XYP is important for you.

 

You invite to initiations in every post (see your signature). So I see nothing I said wrong. Sure, you can think I'm of a very bad manner, and probably it's true, but I don't love to lie or keep silence.

[opendao]

I didn't hear you comment anything about the picture I posted of our grandmaster initiating Quanzhen priests?

 

Do you really believe that between 20 000 Quanzhen monks everybody understands or even practises Neidan? Have you ever been in any temple in China?

 

I really sorry for these monks and I feel bad that they couldn't find a real teacher in Quanzhen What make me feel better is that their number is ridiculously small