Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[effilang]

Just one small thing: there is no Hou Tian practice in Neidan

 

Can you please prove your statement by explaining it from a logical perspective?

[ChiDragon]

Neidan is just a general term for internal elixir. Xian Tian(先天) and Hou Tian(後天) are only descriptions of the sequence of event. Xian Tian(先天) means prenatal and Hou Tian(後天) means postnatal. Indeed, there was no prenatal practice of internal elixir before birth. Then, how could there be a postnatal practice of alchemy.....!!!

[opendao]

Can you please prove your statement by explaining it from a logical perspective?

 

In "conventional" Neidan practice, usual Houtian methods are not used. Because Xiantian methods affect Houtian much better than usual Qigong.

 

Qigong-like exercises are used in some schools to prepare for Neidan practice but nobody tries to convince people that they are already practicing Neidan (Dao) methods. But even with such exercises there is a very important difference.

 

And nobody uses San Bao theory for Qigong, because Three Treasures are treasures only if they are Xian Tian. If they are Hou Tian, then they are "poisoned" and cannot be used for the practice.

 

And Neidan stages are set explicitly: Jing - Qi - Shen.

 

If you disagree, you're welcome to quote any classic text.

[opendao]

Neidan is just a general term for internal elixir. Xian Tian(先天) and Hou Tian(後天) are only descriptions of the sequence of event. Xian Tian(先天) means prenatal and Hou Tian(後天) means postnatal. Indeed, there was no prenatal practice of internal elixir before birth. Then, how could there be a postnatal practice of alchemy.....!!!

 

Sorry, but in Neidan these terms have different meanings.

[xor]

If you disagree, you're welcome to quote any classic text.

 

I think you need to read more carefully what effilang said on this thread.

Edited November 5, 2013 by xor

[opendao]

I think you need to read more carefully what effilang said on this thread.

 

Can you explain what I missed?

 

Effilang wrote

 

San Bao are interdependent.

 

If you nourish the JING it will nourish the QI. If you nourish the QI it will nourish the SHEN - Hou Tian Xiu

If you nourish the SHEN it will nourish the Qi. If you nourish the QI it will nourish the JING - Xian Tian Xiu

 

And I don't know any classic texts that support these ideas... Hou Tian is a direct process where Shi Shen directs Qi and spends Jing.

 

Xian Tian is a reverse process, where San Bao are used (=Yuan Jing, Qi, Shen) and they are used in the order that is assigned by Effilang to Hou Tian Xiu.

 

I'd like to know where these ideas are from. I haven't found anything about lineage, I haven't found anything about school books. That's why I'm asking, maybe I really missed something important?

Edited November 5, 2013 by opendao

[xor]

The opening post was about something that is not in the classical texts and making a contrast between what is found in the literature and what is done in the xiaoyaopai with the guidance of a FFS. Therefore not being found in classical internal alchemy texts seems to be implied. Well this is just my limited understanding.

 

I think you are right about books, lineage not much available in English.

Edited November 6, 2013 by xor

[opendao]

The opening post was about something that is not in the classical texts and making a contrast between what is found in the literature and what is done in the xiaoyaopai with the guidance of a FFS. Therefore not being found in classical internal alchemy texts seems to be implied. Well this is just my limited understanding.

 

I think you are right about books, lineage not much available in English.

 

so basically all these long texts has nothing related to 正一道? Nor to Daozang texts of this school? Nor to the tradition of 天師道?

[zerostao]

i do not under estimate Daozang

http://www.goldenelixir.com/publications/eot_daozang.html

 

Daozang is a remarkable collection of the large Taoist organizations and monasteries.

i dont underestimate Daozang, but, i dont see it containing the deepest secrets of Taoism,

even here in kentucky, colonel sanders never wrote his secret recipe in an open book.

 

and there are many Taoists that are mysterious and do not have a clear history (to the public).

if we trace back further to around 2500 BCE to Huang Ti learning Taoism from the hermit Guang Ceng Zi,

there is no clear background. Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi do not have clear back grounds either.

it can be said that the origins of Taoism come the Taoist hermits and they formed small esoteric spiritual schools.

 

if you want to learn Tai ji you go learn directly under the guidence of the shifu, not from a book.

once you have attained a certain level then the books make sense and you can learn some from them.

 

if we want to learn Taoist spirituality there is no choice but to join a Taoist school.

Xiao Yao Pai originates from an esoteric spiritual school.

you can talk theory but we experience directly the Xian Tian system.

we do not even try to understand the theory of Jing Qi Shen or Shen Qi Jing

but we practice this transformation directly.

 

there are 3 basic Taoist canons;

Dao De Jing , Qing jing Jing , Nan Hua Jing

these canons explain about Zi Ran (naturalness) Wu Wei (effortless) Qing Jing (clear and silent)

Gong (emptiness) Xiao Yao (carefree)

but how to implement and experience it?

we do not master it by reading a book and trying the meditation and qigong on our own.

we need the Taoist shefu to teach us the way to achieve.

back to Jing Qi Shen and Shen Qi Jing, in Xiao Yao Pai, we can experience the energy beyond the mind directly.

 

Effi is well studied in the Taoist texts, so he tried to explain it comparing it to Hou Tian to help us to be able to imagine it. actually it is very difficult to explain. his reiki friend found his energy and meditation changed and it is difficult to explain. it is like we have eaten a very delicious food and we cannot describe it in words.

 

some could say that Shen Qi Jing is not ever written in english but we are experiencing energy beyond the mind.

we are experiencing meditation state that is described as the ultimate level in Hou Tian as a sign that Shen is 'born'.

i had never been told by the school about Shen Qi Jing before or at my initiation.

in XYP we emphasize the exercise and direct experience. we do the exercise, we experience, and we understand.

 

XYP does not lock onto any Taoist canon, we develop our understanding based on our experience and achievement.

opendao says that Yang Shen only able to achieve by Xian Tian system.

how am i able to judge that? i cant say if that is true or not.

but i feel that even the basic stage of Xian Tian is very difficult to achieve by Hou Tian.

opendao also writes about Yuan Jing Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, it is very interesting.

maybe when we were initiated the Taoist Master triggered our Yuan Jing, who knows?

i can share that when we were initiated there is an energy that can make our body move.

and practicing we can achieve a high level stage of meditation, our Qi develops and vitality increases.

how, what is this process??

all just mystery at present.

[Ish]

From my understanding you develop the usage of Yin Shen travel early on in XYP right?

 

Can you comment the usage or purpose of this?

[zerostao]

with XYP Spiritual Taoism, our main objectives are;

health and longevity

enlightenment

Immortality

become wise and care free

 

Yin Shen is the first level of spirit cultivation.

Out of body experience is just side effect of spirit cultivation progression only.

It is not a part of target. But in XYP the reaction is very fast,,

maybe because we can connect with divine energy in the first day of initiation.

this makes our subtle body stronger fast

[raimonio]

When you think about the history of Daoism in general and all the schools of inner alchemy, it is a history of hermits and secret societies. Ofcourse some of it has come out and so there are all kinds of text books etc. and they have all been collected. But I think it would be unrealistic to assume that some type of system or practice couldn't have gone unnoticed. When you look at stillness-movement, it also feels quite revolutionary compared to all the mainstream stuff.

 

General Sanders was one, then there is the catholic church and every single institution on this planet, that does have its secrets. Usually the greater the secret the more secret it is. If there was a system that could do everything faster and easier and the main concern with the secret holders was that people were not ready for such powers, then it is only natural they woulnd't show it. For some reason they have started coming out of their closets though, maybe because of the cultural revolution, or maybe there has been some kind of a shift in the nature of our time.

 

Just look at the attitudes of ancient Daoist masters. The first of them that we hear about (Yellow emperor) was all for politics and being among the people. Lao Zi (a government official?) was still pretty much geared torwards making the political system work, trough Daoist principles. Then the guys that came after that were like "The men have become too wretched, let us head for the mountains and never speak again".

 

Now they are back. For whatever reason that may be.

 

The problem is that all the scam artists have also come out of the bushes. Another problem is that every master I've ever heard talking has said their system is the fastest, strongest and most efficient, even if they were not scam artists. So it all comes down to testing it yourself.

 

I have heard of atleast 2-3 masters of legimate schools say that there are different types of schools and some are "lower level" than others. One aspect I have seen is that all the high level stuff seems to be dealing with transmissions or maybe in this case with a FFS. But anyway there are ways of "bypassing" the struggles of the beginning. If there is energy, and your conciousness can mold it and basicly do whatever it wants to do with it, why couldn't a great master use it to make everything easier for the beginner guy? If you were a millionaire, ofcourse you could just give your money away, that would make someone else rich.

 

All these Qi Gongs and Alchemic stuff work in the way that you get no help from anyone. You stand for a decade in a posture generating the energy from scrach. I must admit I haven't read much of the "classical alchemic texts". I only read DDJ, Bruce Frantzis, Ewa Wong(might remember the name wrong lol) and Thomas Clearys "Vitality, Energy and Spirit". In the latter there are takes from classical texts and in many of them it goes something like this "There was a guy, then a master came, light up the guys Dan Tien, the guy went home and retained his awareness without thinking or anything, 6 months later he achieved immortality". Does this sounds like that stuff people are doing? To me that sounds quite easy, although it is hard to remain aware in todays society, but still. In that book basicly every story goes in the lines of master coming out of the bushes, doing a magic trick in 10minutes then getting the hell out of there, the student never seeing the guy again and thats it. Immortality after few months. GG. To me that sounds like there is something fundamentally wrong with the stuff we are taught.

 

Why don't the teachers just light up the Dan Tien and send the guy home? Why are the Gnostics saying that Jesus imparted them with the "real teachings", that he actually lived another 13 years after crucifiction and taught them? Why are the Tibetan Buddhists saying that the wheel was turned a third time?

 

It is quite clear that there are atleast indications of the existence of "higher level" schools, even in the classical texts right under our noses. However, this does not mean that XYP is that school, or stillness-movement is that school, or any school we have ever heard of is that school. But for the sake of the argument, I must conclude that the existence of such a school is atleast possible and a realistic assumption. And based on that, we cannot judge a school by its claims, but only by its results. And therefor XYP CAN be that school, and Stillness-Movement CAN be that school, or any other school CAN be that school. We just have to test whether it is true.

 

Maybe after a few years zerostao will come back to us and go "guys, the system sucked major, I developed severe mental problems and the FFS killed my cat" who knows. Or maybe he will be a guy who becomes a master and starts teaching.

Edited November 14, 2013 by raimonio

[Chairmandao]

Hi folks,

 

I know I'm coming to this late and am brand shiny new here, and learning Tao, but my spidey sense suggests a few questions may receive some answers. I'm trying to read through and understand some fundamentals that seem to be a bit moot, or at least disagreeable to some more than others. One of these is the descent and/or ascent of energy; or Shen to Jing versus Jing to Shen.

 

From what I read of taoist alchemical methods (my terminology is very novice, so please bear with me and be kind in explanations), the focus is upon transmuting Jing vital energy upward through chi, she, Wuji. Have a I got this correct? This is how I have understood what I read so far (currently hoping that one day a physical teacher may be able and willing to take on a student, but I'm not new to esoterica and have patience ;-) ). I've read on this forum, such as this thread, those who reverse the direction the energies pursue in the process of creation (as I understand it, but i am drawing from a Craft and Qabbalist traditional background somewhat).

 

I'm reading Eva Wong at the moment, Cultivating Stillness, as well as Damo Mitchell, who says, paraphrasing, Jing, Qi, Shen are all manifestations of the same thing, namely the energy of the Dao. His comparison is the substantive formations of water, such as steam, river, ice...in his Daoist Nei Gong, he explains how the Daoist process of creation follows the flowing changes in the frequency of these energies from Shen to Jing. He explicitly states that Nei Ging practice is "...where we begin to reverse the natural course and so head back towards the source... This enables us to attain a spiritual awakening."

 

This all makes perfect sense. Although I have some reservations from an inherent western mystery tradition background, which I think there are those here can understand and recognise in the language I might utilise. I don't wish to talk about Qabbalah or Hermetic Gnosis here as I am turning towards the Tao, but it is the language I have acquired and have most accessible at the moment.

 

Anyway, the way Mitchell explains it, this is a reversal of the natural process, which in and of itself to the layman might not sound like natural Taoism (reversal of nature, ante-nature?), which is often explained as being in harmony with nature? This is confusing and seems at odds, or is this semantics? What I mean is, this alchemical process is described as contra to the natural flow of energy from Shen to Jing. Or spirit to matter (Kether Malkuth). Mitchell also goes on to say that the flow continues Shen transmuting to Qi, then Jing until the vital energy is expended and the body dies. In this context, it would sound appropriate to attain spiritual awakening and immortality by retaining as much Shen as possible as he says, reversing the process.

 

Now, and here's my difficulty and question, and it is a lingering example from the western mysteries. A question that is often asked among those groups I have worked in the western traditions who are active, contacted and practice is "Keter to Malkuth or Malkuth to Keter"? That is, does your group raise energy, or draw it down? To put in other terms, does your system concentrate or prefer to work on raising energy from earthly material to spirit of heaven, or by drawing down spirit to descend within and enlighten the physical. Both sublimate the ego, neither is right or wrong. In actuality, the conclusion I achieved with my last working group (a known traditional group), it may be argued that both or either is applicable depending upon many factors, including the purpose and outcome one is operating. Indeed, it might be regarded a circuit of force (to quote Dion Fortune), whereby both directions of flow are in concordance with each other as a unity of equal opposites, almost a yin and yang in itself? I read those whose system or path is Xiao Yao Pai who contact with a spirit and work energy Shen to Jing. In threads I've read, others disagree with the possibility or beneficial reality of this. However, from my background in the occult and esotericism of the west, this is not a problem. Indeed, many who may be regarded as enlightened, even immortal, might have been such? Jesus, for one, did not attain illumination by reversing the route the Holy Spirit had taken to manifest, it rather by becoming the embodiment of Holy Spirit in this energy plane. Within the Gnostic literature and classics, Pistis Sophia for example, it is the very purpose of spirit to descend into matter to retrieve that energy and raise it up again. This, then is a cycle of the flow of energy. In this sense, I can sort of understand then XYP approach, as well as those who disagree. From my understanding and experience, we could argue that spirit is naturally descending and it is our conscious effort or ability in transmuting Jing to Qi, to Shen that brings enlightened awakening. However, XYP seem to be implying that a spirit contact allows aid in this, so there is an active cycle of spirit, descent through to Jing. Presumably, if XYP can answer this, does this then ascend again? If adopting what you say, one would have to assume so?

 

I wonder, for my own benefit, does any of this latter bear any relevance in the Tao as those experienced here recognise it. As I say, this is just the language and background baggage I currently am working through, reorganising and working out where it fits, or if it's unnecessary for the journey.

 

 

Apologies for the lengthy preamble, I go on a bit...

 

Thanks for listening, reading and patience.

 

Ian

Edited April 21, 2014 by Chairmandao

[Chairmandao]

Ok, maybe ill get a bite this time, lol ;-). The original post in this thread is sounding more convincing to me as I read more (although not experienced in the Taoist systems). The Path of Manifestation, from Shen, Qi, Jing must always be present, no? It is the immanent process of creation occurring around us in a continual cycle of genesis, unrestricted to a six day period but continuing every moment. In the western magical traditions, when one wills a desire to manifesting in the physical, the Path of Manifestation, or Generation (i.e. spirit, Energy, Essence) would be that route. All creation into the manifest plain follows,this route, cogito ergo sum. First I think it (Shen), then my breath carries the energy which is shaped into sound in the throat/mouth (essence) and thus the Word is made flesh, the thought is spoken, the spirit is made manifest. Just an example from Hebraic classic literature (Sefer Yetzirah, if interested).

 

So, I read frequently today that Taoists first worked this principle in observance of the path of manifestation, the. Traced the reverse path to transcendence. There seems to be suggestion that both are works and available to practitioners, which makes sense to me. As I said, I order to manifest the magical process must follow this route. Not t the exclusion of the path of transendence, the purposes are different, the system the same - it depends whether we are nurturing, or harvesting, root or branch.

 

In my magical experience, more often one is working the path of transendence in working to attain gnosis, or communion with the Tao. But, in such traditionsI've worked from western tradition, a tutelary deity is a facilitator, egregore and group soul contributing to the guidance and mutual benefit. This sounds like the XYP system some have talked of here, to me? Perhaps they can elucidate? Also, it strikes me that the path of transendence is called a reversal, whereas the path of manifestation is the flow of the Tao. Semantically, drawing energy down from Shen to Jing would be "going with the flow", wouldn't it?

 

I could be very confused and running the risk of co floating east and west, and traditions therein, and I'm guarded against such. And yet, we are all made of that which we are exposed to through the course of our lives. Accepting that and identifying our true self, liberate from social and cultural mores, rules and doctrines, surely must be enlightening?

 

Lux,

Ian

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Since you haven't had much in the way of a reply so far, I will give a few suggestions. I can't give an 'official' explanation because my attention was only drawn to Xiao Yao Pai a few weeks ago and in another context. However, I do have a significant background in both Daoist cultivation and Western Esoteric practice, so that may be helpful to you in itself.

 

If you read the following it may make it a little clearer what is going on:

 

The 2 day initiation event planned is to be held in London, the objective of which will be to introduce participants to a Taoist system of spiritual cultivation called Tao Yin Shu or as mentioned before, the Taoist Divine Art.

Day 1 will consist of a short seminar lasting about two hours, which will explain the basic concepts of Taoism, followed by a Tao Yin initiation performed by a Taoist Master.

The Tao Yin initiation ceremony will trigger and awaken in you the ability to communicate with your Fu Fak Shen and officially make you a disciple of Tai Shang Lao Jun.

Once initiated, practitioners will be able to connect with other dimensions in a fully aware non-trance state and establish a connection with the divine realms.

Among many other things, this ability will allow you to connect and communicate with any immortal or holy spirit across any belief system, allow you to unravel the secrets of life and the after-life and lead you into the core understanding of Taoism, which is the fundamental origin of all Taoist skills and knowledge such as, medicine, feng shui (geomancy), meditation, talisman skills, ceremonies etc.

Your Fu Fak Shen or "guardian" spirit, will establish a connection for communication directly to you and guide you through your practice in a manner specific to your level of development and understanding.

During day 2, you will be trained in how to perform Taoist exercises, including basic Qi Gong (Breath exercises) and Jing Zuo (meditation.)

the ability to communicate with your Fu Fak Shen: if you think of this as connecting with 'the Holy Guardian Angel', you may find that helpful.

Now read this with that in mind:

Instead of cultivating JING to QI to SHEN, during initiation we are directly connected to a Xian Shen or Tian Shen (Immortal Spirit or Heavenly Spirit) - whom exist in a dimension far above ours and have a skill so refined that they can hand pick each and every one of your imbalances and cure it directly.

If you have an imbalance in your liver, it will prescribe something specifically for that.

If you have an issue with your heart, it will prescribe something specifically for that.

Whatever the issue is, whether of the physical, energetic or spirit/mind body, your Fu Fa Shen will approach your refinement through divine wisdom.

It will not spend time on that which needs no attention, but only on that which does. This is not something we can do on our own due to our limited perception and diagnostic skills.

This guardian spirit is sometimes spelled Fu Fa Shen and Fu Fak Shen, though Fu Fa Shen Fu Fa Shen (which I am assuming is 傅 fù, fū, tutor, teacher; 法 fǎ, method, technique; 神 shén , heavenly spirit) as Heavenly Spirit Teacher of Method, seems to make more sense.

Bearing this 'Guradian Spirit' idea in mind and some other considerations is a useful starting point for you from what you say in your first post. I don't have time to post more now, but I think the basic ideas discussed in this thread can be reconciled into a coherent model of cultivation.

[Chairmandao]

Thank you Donald,

 

I suppose, from the above, I'm a little hesitant as the idea of being able to offer instant and immediate initiation like that sounds, in my experience, unlikely. They say, if something's too good to be true, it usually is.

 

From a western esoteric background, contact with a Holy Guardian Angel is an extremely committed and difficult operation, yet one easily affected by delusion in the inexperienced (I've met people who are happily talking to guardian spirits, often discarnate good and famous people, who seem to have changed in separation from their body...). I don't say that to discredit anybody or anything, but I always worked on the basis that no human can truly "initiate" another, true initiation comes from the gods. A person can steer, guide, instruct, but they cannot walk the path for you, or pick you up and place you on a certain point. Only hen that individual is ready and prepare for a very large change in perspective do the heavens afford a gateway. I guess I'm stuck on the Neoplatonic and Hermetic concepts too much?

 

Hmmm... Spiritual cultivation is something that must be worked at by the practitioner, hence it is called practice, so I guess this has just intrigued me more by the suggestion that somebody can be potentially "triggered" into a cultivation by another, and afforded a guardian spirit who will pretty well do everything for you? If it was truly that easy, why is the world not filled with th enlightened?

 

But, I have seen use of the Laying on of Hands, which was/is a part of Catholic sacrament that imparts Holy Spirit within the newly baptised. So, the baptism initiats within the faith, Laying of Hands confirms Grace bestowed as the transmission of Holy Spirit. It was the rite that Simon Magus wanted to learn from Jesus' Apostles (which he offered to pay for, and they chastised him for). Jesus was passing Holy Spirit onto others through the Laying on of Hands, the apostles were amongst disciples who could, too, perform this sacred magical act. This sounds similar, no? Quit often, the imparted Holy Spirit was so cleansing, it naturally healed, such as leprosy, etc...

 

Acts 19:6

And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

...And when Simon saw that through alaying on of the apostles hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

XYP fascinates me as I've grown cynical and cautious of instant enlightenment for the masses type promises. It goes against the grain, the simplest spiritual cultivation works upon being a better human, relinquishing desire and fixation upon the material, the quick gratification of the manifest plain, which in itself brings harmony and peace. But, XYP are not asking for anything from anyone, no moneys and so far, no commitment to anyone or anything like a cult. So, there's nothing to lose in finding out, I suppose. I also wondered, as immortality seems to be a focus of taoist alchemy, if it's possible that through the alchemical cultivation and transmutation, adherence to fear of mortality leads to acceptance and cultivation of a perspective that doesn't see physical death as something to be avoided or afraid of? Again, my experience of western spiritual practices reveals a "learning to die" with grace, rather than learning to prolong mortality? But then is that a difference between inner and external alchemise? Another thread, more reading perhaps...

 

Interesting, thanks Donald. I've browsed other threads and this seems to be the bone of contention, so I'll leave it there, I think. I have no intention of rocking apple carts, simply to learn.

 

Ian

Edited April 23, 2014 by Chairmandao

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I always worked on the basis that no human can truly "initiate" another, true initiation comes from the gods.

 

I'm sorry if I did not make clear that:

 

The Tao Yin initiation ceremony will trigger and awaken in you the ability to communicate with your Fu Fak Shen and officially make you a disciple of Tai Shang Lao Jun.

 

Tai Shang Lao Jun (太上 老君, Tàishàng Lǎojūn, Very Highest Lord Lao), is the most important single Deity in Daoism and thus the Initiation Rite would take place under the highest divine auspices, if Xiao Yao Pai's claims are correct.

 

I will further note that I don't have any negative criticism of Xiao Yao Pai in so far as I understand it at this time. It simply remains to be seen whether it can deliver as promised. What I hope to do if I have time is to look a little closer at some of the issues that have been raised on this thread and and see if they can be reconciled and how they reflect on problems of cultivation in general.

[Walker]

Thank you for the thoughtful and sincere posts, Chairman (good name, by the way haha).

 

I know no more about XYP than other non-initiates on this forum, but I have a thought to offer. The notion of going in reverse of the flow of nature is a term with very specific implications in Daoist alchemy, and these implications relate to very specific events that can occur in the practitioner's being. The term can also be turned into a philosophical idea, and while that may provide genuinely useful-to-the-practitioner food for contemplation, it does not obviously relate to the internal alchemy. Regardless of whether we are talking about ancient times or the present, in China or abroad, the people who understand this vocabulary philosophically rather than technically are in the majority. Again, such thinking can yield insights and even wisdom, but know that what you are talking about is also very specific in certain circumstances.

 

As to whether reversal is natural or not, I understand your question, as it is one that I had until I learned Chinese. The implication, in my opinion, is more about the "normal" course of human life than the natural. Reversal is equally natural, but it is rare for people to know there is an alternative, rarer yet for people to truly want it, and

Edited April 24, 2014 by Walker

[Walker]

yet rarer still for people to achieve it. Still, it is natural, with the outcome of one direction creating more humans, and the latter creating xian, or immortals (ie, those truly awake to their original, unchanging nature, and not simply people whose bodies don't die--this definition is expressed plainly by Zhuangzi and reiterated equally clearly much later on by Wang Chongyang, and many others). Finally, glimpses of these things make it clear to the adept whether or not they are "natural"--their arising is like all the other marvelous mechanisms of the universe, none of which is came about due to mankind's _doing_.

 

I don't doubt that reversal contains much deeper meaning than I understand.

 

I do not know if the XYP usage of this terminology relates to internal alchemy that traces its written root to Lv Dongbin and Zhongli Quan.

 

I also can offer no more concrete details.

 

There is much good info out there in books. I had good luck early on with some Cleary translations. They are of old, important works, and worth looking at for the non-Chinese speaker.

 

Slowly learn the vocabulary on its own terms and beware conflating similar-sounding ideas with Daoism's own. In terms of practical instruction, the Daoists speak much more to the point than outsiders usually realize.

[Chairmandao]

There is much good info out there in books. I had good luck early on with some Cleary translations. They are of old, important works, and worth looking at for the non-Chinese speaker.

Thanks, Walker, for a concise and sincere reply. I'm content exploring and taking things at a gentle pace, after all Rome wasn't built in a day as they say. I'm currently reading a couple of Eva Wong, cultivating stillness is my present "manual" for guidance on alchemy and it's quite good. Without a list of recommended reading, I'm trying to be discerning in my reading material. Aware as I am that there is, like in any such field, a potential propensity for some westernised "band wagon" material, which doesn't help me, or future students. But such is life.

 

Slowly learn the vocabulary on its own terms and beware conflating similar-sounding ideas with Daoism's own. In terms of practical instruction, the Daoists speak much more to the point than outsiders usually realize.

This is, indeed such a point as I'm trying to beware of and, I suppose, a part of my tao; that is, to be aware of and not influenced in tao by previous and social influences which may restrict or presuppose. Excellent point well made, Walker. Thanks. As I said, I'm interested in learning and practicing so will continue to read these threads and regard all information imparted.

 

 

Cheers,

Ian

Edited April 24, 2014 by Chairmandao

[Chairmandao]

I had good luck early on with some Cleary translations

 

Ah, I have Cleary's Taoist Classics Vol 1 as a starting point, but it's quite a tome as a collection... Lol

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

No human can truly "initiate" another, true initiation comes from the gods. A person can steer, guide, instruct, but they cannot walk the path for you, or pick you up and place you on a certain point. Only when that individual is ready and prepared for a very large change in perspective do the heavens afford a gateway. I guess I'm stuck on the Neoplatonic and Hermetic concepts too much?

 

If thou art then also am I.

 

Neo Platonist and Neo Pythagorean am I.

 

And bright Hermes himself taught me every magic trick.

 

Under the.

 

Sun.

 

dEZ

xxx

...

Edited April 24, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

He's Ren.

 

I'm Stimpy.

 

Yet the Triune symbol be superior to the Yin/Yang.

 

The three in one set the wheel in motion.

 

"Slaying The White Tiger and Beheading The Red Dragon."

 

As above, so below.

 

"Poking a Stick in the Eye of The White Snake."

 

xxx

...

Edited April 24, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[effilang]

I suppose, from the above, I'm a little hesitant as the idea of being able to offer instant and immediate initiation like that sounds, in my experience, unlikely. They say, if something's too good to be true, it usually is.

 

Rightly so should you be, but it is only when our desire for the truth overcomes our fear of our reality, that we can experience true meaning.

 

From a western esoteric background, contact with a Holy Guardian Angel is an extremely committed and difficult operation, yet one easily affected by delusion in the inexperienced (I've met people who are happily talking to guardian spirits, often discarnate good and famous people, who seem to have changed in separation from their body...)

 

The endless perversions of mainstream Western spirituality and religion are not founded on actually providing the answer or gratifying you with the truth. Rather they will tell you that there is in fact an answer. That it does indeed exist, but then trick you into believing yourself to never be worthy of it. You are constantly a sinner in pursuit of the Lords forgiveness and you spend all your life cleansing yourself that you might walk on the path, rather than actually walking the path directly. "God" would not have given us the ability to do something only to punish us for doing it. It would be a sick little game then wouldn't it?

 

Everything is permissible, but we must mature and follow our internal compass and learn how to discern that which causes sadness and pain from that which causes happiness and pleasure. It is only then that we can find the mid-point between the two. It is there that the truth lies. In the emptiness.

 

Poor Jesus.

 

- "Are you the son of God?"

- "I am the son of God."

- "Blasphemer! Crucify him!"

 

It is such a pure statement, with so much meaning.

The right to express your divine nature, your origin.

 

"I am, the son of God." - I am of the energy of the universe, as it is of me. It is beautiful. But people wouldn't understand this today, much less folks several thousand years ago.

 

There are those people whom are so scared of the truth, that they avoid it at all costs.

They like the idea of the truth. Oh it's tantalizing. They love to be tickled by it. Seduced by it. But they will never dare to unravel it fully, for what purpose thereafter would their lives have? They prefer the fantasy to the reality for there they can retain their control.

 

It is not extremely committed, nor a difficult operation.

I can tell you right now that you commit more time to having breakfast every morning.

 

And difficult?

 

...nothing could be easier or more natural, but the mind is overbearing. It's shadow is great.

So we think and analyze. How do we do.. when do we do... is this ok... is that ok... should i this or that.

 

No. Don't do anything. Don't do anything and you will become anything (infinite potential) and from anything you will become everything (manifestation of mind.) It is through mimicry that we grow into society and onto the earth and it is through mimicry that we will grow out of society and into heaven.

 

If the goal is to become a painter then, mimic painters.

If the goal is to become a chef, mimic chefs.

If the goal is emptiness, then mimic emptiness.

 

I don't say that to discredit anybody or anything, but I always worked on the basis that no human can truly "initiate" another, true initiation comes from the gods. A person can steer, guide, instruct, but they cannot walk the path for you, or pick you up and place you on a certain point. Only hen that individual is ready and prepare for a very large change in perspective do the heavens afford a gateway. I guess I'm stuck on the Neoplatonic and Hermetic concepts too much?

 

Nor can an awakened god walk the path for you. What really is initiation, but an opportunity?

Nothing is forced upon us. Everything is choice. This is the law of the universe. Even if the highest God commands, you may still exercise free-will, and that right is as much ours as it is mandatory that we bear their concequences.

 

Are the resulting manifestations of initiation only attainable through initiation or can a practitioner reach this state himself?

 

Hmmm... Spiritual cultivation is something that must be worked at by the practitioner, hence it is called practice, so I guess this has just intrigued me more by the suggestion that somebody can be potentially "triggered" into a cultivation by another, and afforded a guardian spirit who will pretty well do everything for you? If it was truly that easy, why is the world not filled with th enlightened?

 

One can be initiated and die 10 years later with no progress made.

Half of the effort comes from your Fu Fa Shen and the other from you.

 

Your physical body is a laboratory, but we are no qualified al-chemists.

We have all the tools, but do not know how to put them together.

 

Fu Fa Shen is like a skilled al-chemist.

Our own personal Walter White : )

 

During the initiation he/she/it is assigned to us through a request made to Tai Shang Lao Jun.

When you start practice and invite the presense of your teacher, it will guide you through the process of transformation.

 

Oooh.. look at those dusty beakers : )

Lets clean them up first shall we, Padawan?

Now lets gather the necessary ingredients we need.

Whats that there? 2 ounces of mecury and 1 pound of lead? Lovely : )

 

Now lets mix. Put a little here, says Fu Fa Shen!

Noooo! Not so much. Now stir it. Not so FAST! Slower... Goood.

 

Now stop. Wait a little.

We need more oxygen.

Ok, increase the fire.

 

Hold It.

Now Push!

 

Push HARDER!

HARDEEEEEEEERR!

 

FART!!!!

 

Woooo! Good! We cleared that blockage, or was that just the Indian food?

 

Without Fu Fa Shen. Navigating the complicated maze of our body's energy matrix would be a very difficult thing.

Not impossible. DEFINITELY doable, but requiring a lot of attention and care. A lot of learning and preparation.

 

The advantage to having Fu Fa Shen's assistance is that we can refine and combine our internal energies in a very effective manner. For all intensive purposes, we are on autopilot on a highway of spiritual evolution.

 

But its much more than that. You can ask questions, directions, advice, seek help. He/she/it is not just a teacher, but a friend and a guardian and it si there to help you re-member who you are. To re-collect yourself back into the original one.

 

Without the availability of your body as the lab, Fu Fa Shen, can't do anything. That availability is provided to FFS when you invite he/she/it to practice. Without your intention and heart to work and cultivate, Fu Fa Shen won't bother with you.

 

And although you are being instructed in what to do and when to do it and how much of it to do. These are only instructions, only guidance. It is you that must do the lifting and mixing and preparations and cooking.

 

That is why it is called the divine GUIDANCE art.

 

So don't think that you get it DONE. It is you that does the doing.

When you go to a boxing class, the instructor will show you how to punch, but he can't do the punching for you.

You have to hit the bag yourself. You have to sweat on your own. Ache on your own. Grow on your own.

 

Still it is better than punching the heavy-bag with your fingers wrapped around your thumb or with a bent wrist and then breaking your hand.

 

That is what FFS is there to do. Eliminate all false methods and guide us directly through the path of least resistance, with the aim of reaching the goal in the least amount of time. The goal? But of course, to be reborn in the Kingdom of heaven : )

 

But not in a body of flesh, but a body of spirit.

We must give birth to the immortal spirit, a cohesion of our Yin and Yang capacities.

 

I also wondered, as immortality seems to be a focus of taoist alchemy, if it's possible that through the alchemical cultivation and transmutation, adherence to fear of mortality leads to acceptance and cultivation of a perspective that doesn't see physical death as something to be avoided or afraid of? Again, my experience of western spiritual practices reveals a "learning to die" with grace, rather than learning to prolong mortality? But then is that a difference between inner and external alchemise? Another thread, more reading perhaps...

 

We needn't learn to die in as much as we needn't learn to be born. The acquired mind is unnecessary for either of these transitions of existence to take place.

 

When death and birth are perceived from the perspective of the temporary physical body and the temporary acquired mind, the thought is frightening, because it results to the complete annihilation of identity, but when the practitioner has become aware of the higher self and made contact with the infinite nature of their original self, their mind is reborn into a reality founded on the idea that we are a form of eternal consciousness within a temporary body. We are simply passing through. Birth is a process of this passage just as death is a continuation of it. There is no cessation in the motion.

 

It is not then to die with grace that we should perfect, or to prolong the lifespan of our physical vehicles, but rather to savour the experience of existence. To perfect the expression of our divine nature through creation. To create with our minds, to create with our energy and to create with our body. We are here to learn about our potential to create, to develop it and to be awakened from our dormant state into one where we can harness our full potential as Gods.

 

In our natural state as children, we occupy our every minute with refining control of our capacity to express our minds through our physical bodies (Jing expressing Shen via Qi). This should never stop untill we die. In fact we should work to make the process of expression even more refined, even more pronounced, untill all three become one and we are no longer separated. Until mind, energy and body function as one manifestation of impulsive energy expressing itself unambiguously, with complete totality.

Edited April 24, 2014 by effilang

[damdao]

The two lineages that most atracted me are in this thread, i.e.: wuliupai and xiaoyaopai.

Now I will write something about XYP. Referring to what is written in this thread I think (but I have no knowledge) that in the Daozang you can find alchemy based daoism and non-alchemical, with the later I mean: flying to the stars, frolicking among the immortals, etc. i.e. all the methods and imaginery that have an alchemical effect but that in many ways are parallel and prior to the Chung- Lü paradigm. For some reason (historical, sociological, etc.), the Chung-Lu paradigm (and its offsprings) has become the paradigm for explainig and thinking the daoism but actually is only one between many of them. I don't know the history of XYP but there is the possibility that this lineage has a line different of that of sanbao theory in the way that Chung-Lü explains it, so today as the paradigm is the alchemical one we are forced to explain a path with a paradigm that is not its original (but this is only speculation, Can XYP say something about its origin or development? Something not included in the secrecy pledge, of course).

Besides that, XYP as we can see in its websites is more than the initiation, you cannot reduce the whole path to that, so it is neither “an instant initiation process” path nor “something that it is not worked at”. You have to do many things like self-introspection, self-correction, work with colleagues, work in the social world, there are tests, etc. In fact, the goal seems to be to fuse or blend the 3 yin souls and the 7 yang spirits in a organic whole in order to produce a fully functional human being, and this seems to me a rather interesting psychological path, it is some facet that sometimes is (seems) lost in the purely alchemical paradigm.

In order to fully grasp a little (being an outsider) of this path I recommend to check the Indonesian sites, you can see a sociological dimension, a religious one, communitarian, etc. Of course the language can be a barrier but if you are interested it is worth to work out on it.

This are some links that I consider interesting:

 

http://tao-tsm.siutao.com/

http://english.siutao.com/introduction/the_eight_things_need_to_be_developed.php

http://intandalamdebu.com/

http://taoindonesia.info/