Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[opendao]

 

 

"Recruiting" - for what?

 

Ask zerostao, it's his idea, not mine

 

About zerostao's "all others schools recruit here": it's not true.

 

XYP and Zhen Dao recruit and promote the most, but other schools - not really. I don't mind, but let's keep things clear.

 

 

Until you've had an opportunity to verify whether what I say is false or true, you're just a speculator.

 

You're dodging again. I explained many times that I write not about your methods, but about your theories. I can speculate about your methods, but about your theories I have a direct experience - your own words.

 

Or do you want to say that you lie in the Internet, but during 2 days of initiation you will tell to newbies the correct things that don't contradict Neidan? I hope you're not so low.

 

 

Right. As I had mentioned before the commonality of our arts, lies beneath the surface.

Sadly, some people, cough-cough, can't see beneath it.

 

If you are an admirer of Liu Yimings' findings, you will appreciate what I said before in that, when the subtle alchemical ingredients of the formed postnatal San Bao are transmuted and then combined with the alchemical ingredients of the formless prenatal San Bao;

 

I'm not an admirer of Liu Yiming, but please quote his words about it. I have some doubts, cough-cough. Especially about San Bao in this context.

 

 

The prenatal Yang quality resides within the postnatal Yin quality as Kan ☵. That is how we can use the physical body as a laboratory to extract the prenatal Yang and this is why consciousness enters it. This is the Hou Tian state, the birth of Yang.

 

Sorry, but again you don't understand what is Pre Heaven and Post Heaven.

 

Kan, Li, birth of Yang - that's all about Pre Heaven.

 

I see that this info is not in popular books, and I think it wasn't translated in English yet, but on your level you have to understand that. There is another important thing about "birth of Yang" regarding Kan and Li, but it's not in the books, so let's continue...

 

 

To reverse the process, the prenatal Yang which is hidden between the postnatal Yin Yao of Kan must be combined with postnal Li ☲. During this interaction the prenatal Yin and Yang separate and energetically exchange places creating the outer alchemical agent. This is the result of combining the postnatal san bao of Li and Kan

 

In many many many Neidan books it's written clearly: neither Houtian substance can restore Xiantian treasures.

 

Sure, people in traditional schools know it from the direct experience, but here we don't see it.

 

 

and this is the first transmutation and involves "doing". This is unity, but not GREAT UNITY.

 

I don't recall anybody who speaks about unity in the context of "doing" and "building the foundation" phase...

 

 

For this process to take place, the fire of the heart (Li) must be directed into the lower dan tian so it can mingle with Kan. But since there is no way to do this physically, we use the intention and the eyes, which are connected to the heart (where Li resides) and can direct the spirit's influence. This way Li can be directed to Kan under the navel.

 

When the Fire mixes with the Water, the postnatal Jing will stop flowing down and out of the genital organs and the postnatal Shen will stop rising up and out of the eyes. The fire (Li) of the Shen will then scortch the water (Kan) of the Jing to produce vapor (Qi) and will soon lead to the first unity of the poscelestial San Bao; the outer alchemical agent.

 

This is Qigong. Modern Qigong, nothing more.

 

The process of restoring yuan jing in Neidan is much more hard, complex and is set on absolutely different principles.

 

Shen as the consciousness is not used, and Qi will be refined ("produced") later, so we cannot really speak about San Bao in this context at all.

 

But your description is correct for Qigong. I hope I don't need to repeat about the difference between Qigong and Neidan?

 

 

 

This will produce the white light of lesser unification (Yin Qi) and is the first internal birth; the result of the mixing of Kan and Li.

 

And at this stage you can experience breathless state, right? Then it's Qigong again, not Neidan :-) Same for light.

 

A lot of people can achieve that without any teachers or even books or FFS of any kind.

 

 

The second birth, does not involve "doing" or movement or direction. It happens naturally as a result of the first birth and manifests as the golden light of Yang Qi to form the inner alchemical agent.

 

When these two mix together, Yin Qi and Yang Qi or (Kan ☵ + Li ☲) + (Qian ☰ + Kun ☷) = then you will get GREAT UNITY or what Liu Yiming calls the precelestial breath of unity, the result of the union of post celestial san bao with precelestial san bao to produce the immortal embryo, fetus and child.

 

The immortal embryo is not a result of the mix of post and pre celestial. Does anybody on this forum knows what is the Real Unity? What polarities are merged?

 

Liu Yiming writes correct things, but you don't. When you described Yangshen, I thought you know where postcelestial is used, at least on what stage, but here you revealed my doubts.

 

 

 

This is the fusion of true Yin and true Yang which bring about true Unity, which is not of the Taiji but of the Wuji.

 

There is no such thing as "true Yin" in the context of "true unity". Tip: think about daoist names: Chongyang, Danyang etc.

 

And in Taiji your first unity cannot happen by definition (of Taiji). If it would be so, then all people could live forever and achieved Neidan's heights easily. But in reality it's not like that. Neidan provides the answer why it happens and solutions for that.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

As a conclusion: again there are a lot of ideas, that cannot be supported by the practice of Neidan in traditional schools, nor by classical books used in such schools.

 

When I say that, I refer both to classical books and patriarchs of the schools I am fortunate to learn from. I really thankful to them and to my Teacher for the rare opportunity to understand directly at least the basics of Neidan.

 

Dao teaching is a true science, with a lot of details and hidden aspects. It needs a high accuracy, commitment and intelligence. It's passed by from masters to a few students. But again, the method of all true Neidan schools is the same. And the results are the same. And it doesn't depend on "our differences in psychological, energetic, physical and spiritual make up"...

 

But the basics are open now, and in the future I hope all traditional Teachers, as well as my brothers and sisters in different schools, will change the situation and will give a chance to more people to understand what Neidan is and what it is not.

 

I'm constantly doing my humble efforts, I hope it will help somebody the same way, as it helped me when I've read true words about Neidan from my Teacher long time ago.

 

Peace.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think this quote might help, from Cleary's "Vitality, Energy, Spirit," sayings of Lu Dongbin:

 

Stabilizing Vitality

The three treasures are not easily obtained. Since they are not easy to obtain, how can we not take care of them? They are to be taken care of, and this is accomplished by purity and tranquility, not agitating the vitality, not letting it leak, so that it abides peacefully in its original home, true to reality as it is, circulating three hundred and sixty-one times in a day and night, returning to its original home, true to its own nature, immutable, forming the stabilizing ingredient of the elixer of immortality

 

Guarding Energy

Vitality is always controlled by energy. Once energy runs outside, vitality eventually leaks out. Therefore, to stabilize vitality one should guard the energy. How is energy to be guarded? This requires freedom from craving, clear openness and serenity, not acting impulsively [...]

 

Preserving Spirit

The firing is the spirit. Vitality cannot be concentrated except by energy, but vitality and energy cannot be operated without the spirit to stabilize the vitality, and nurturing the energy is just a matter of preserving the spirit. In the work of preserving the spirit, it is important to stop rumination, with nothing coming out from within and nothing coming in from outside. With all signs of emotion gone, one plunges into a state of boundlessness, lightness, blissful fluidity, tranquil independence.

 

 

 

 

My humble understanding of this is that essentially one must be stabilized and self aware, and not rigid so as to allow the jing to be "true to its own nature" while being stabilized and not leaked out. The directions for energy are very similar, as well as those for spirit. In fact the directions are not even so difficult for an experienced meditator, especially with chi awareness from chi gung.

 

So once the vitality is stabilized and the energy is guarded, the work takes place at the level of spirit. The vitality and energy are somewhat passive in the firing process, and it is at or from the level of spirit that the process is really happening.

 

So, though jing and chi are stabilized first, the transformation really begins from shen.

 

So, you're both right, but the terminology may be less in agreement.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[opendao]

I think this quote might help, from Cleary's "Vitality, Energy, Spirit," sayings of Lu Dongbin:

 

Stabilizing Vitality

The three treasures are not easily obtained. Since they are not easy to obtain, how can we not take care of them? They are to be taken care of, and this is accomplished by purity and tranquility, not agitating the vitality, not letting it leak, so that it abides peacefully in its original home, true to reality as it is, circulating three hundred and sixty-one times in a day and night, returning to its original home, true to its own nature, immutable, forming the stabilizing ingredient of the elixer of immortality

 

Guarding Energy

Vitality is always controlled by energy. Once energy runs outside, vitality eventually leaks out. Therefore, to stabilize vitality one should guard the energy. How is energy to be guarded? This requires freedom from craving, clear openness and serenity, not acting impulsively [...]

 

Preserving Spirit

The firing is the spirit. Vitality cannot be concentrated except by energy, but vitality and energy cannot be operated without the spirit to stabilize the vitality, and nurturing the energy is just a matter of preserving the spirit. In the work of preserving the spirit, it is important to stop rumination, with nothing coming out from within and nothing coming in from outside. With all signs of emotion gone, one plunges into a state of boundlessness, lightness, blissful fluidity, tranquil independence.

 

 

 

 

My humble understanding of this is that essentially one must be stabilized and self aware, and not rigid so as to allow the jing to be "true to its own nature" while being stabilized and not leaked out. The directions for energy are very similar, as well as those for spirit. In fact the directions are not even so difficult for an experienced meditator, especially with chi awareness from chi gung.

 

So once the vitality is stabilized and the energy is guarded, the work takes place at the level of spirit. The vitality and energy are somewhat passive in the firing process, and it is at or from the level of spirit that the process is really happening.

 

So, though jing and chi are stabilized first, the transformation really begins from shen.

 

So, you're both right, but the terminology may be less in agreement.

 

You missed one small detail: Lu speaks about preheaven jing and preheaven shen (because it's Neidan text), but effilang suggests to start with postheaven Shen and then merge postheaven Shen-qi-jing, so this quote couldn't help to support his ideas.

 

Those who have eyes can read even in this small quote that Neidan starts with Ming-vitality, and the real transformation starts with the energy, not with the spirit as you suggest by playing with passive-active.

 

Students don't have any access to their Shen in the beginning, as well as to their Qi (yuan qi of course which you cannot feel using qigong), so the method is based on absolutely different principles and that's what make it so hard to reinvent.

 

Again, neither xiantian can be repaired using houtian, but people have no way to know and control xiantian. How to solve this puzzle?

 

Harmonious Emptiness, how long you will continue to make your guesses based on playing with words? You've read a lot, maybe it's time to look for a teacher? Rhetoric question, I know. But I really hope you will do it one day.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The directions are quite clear and fitting to my experience. I'd be careful to take someone else's words as my own knowledge, in this case the vague suggestions of higher access leading to fantastic notions beyond anyone's experience. There's always higher levels, however I have no reason to think you have any idea how to get anywhere beyond a debate within the paradigms of theory. I dont think these texts were written clearly in order to mislead but meant what was said when it was said clearly as it was in the above example. The instructions are really quite clear and simple and consistent in the texts. Why should I follow someone who claims that only they can explain what they really mean?

 

They have more credit to me than anyone's personal claims towards the same end of which they have no personal experiential grasp.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Also, you say that Lu Dongbin is talking about something entirely beyond the reach of what we're talking about. But read the instructions he gives. He is says to be "free from craving.. not acting impulsively.. stop rumination (of the thoughts)." If Lu is talking about a level so far beyond, wouldn't craving, impulse, and ruminating thoughts be long since passed?

 

It seems to me you've missed some important details in your pursuit to taunt other members and prove your superior knowledge.

[opendao]

The directions are quite clear and fitting to my experience. I'd be careful to take someone else's words as my own knowledge, in this case the vague suggestions of higher access leading to fantastic notions beyond anyone's experience. There's always higher levels, however I have no reason to think you have any idea how to get anywhere beyond a debate within the paradigms of theory. I dont think these texts were written clearly in order to mislead but meant what was said when it was said clearly as it was in the above example. The instructions are really quite clear and simple and consistent in the texts. Why should I follow someone who claims that only they can explain what they really mean?

 

They have more credit to me than anyone's personal claims towards the same end of which they have no personal experiential grasp.

 

Read again my previous post, you didn't get what I meant.

 

Stabilizing vitality has nothing in common with your idea of "one must stabilize and self aware". Do you know what Ming is?

 

Neither xiantian can be repaired using houtian, but people have no way to know and control xiantian. How to solve this puzzle?

 

And yes, this text is cryptic as well as ALL OTHER TEXTS IN NEIDAN tradition. Especially in English translation :-)

 

Also, you say that Lu Dongbin is talking about something entirely beyond the reach of what we're talking about. But read the instructions he gives. He is says to be "free from craving.. not acting impulsively.. stop rumination (of the thoughts)." If Lu is talking about a level so far beyond, wouldn't craving, impulse, and ruminating thoughts be long since passed?

 

I didn't say anything about "Lu Dongbin is talking about something entirely beyond the reach of what we're talking about"

 

I said Lu speaks about yuan jing, qi and shen in the stage he describes. And yes, people cannot control them. But the stage is not far from the beginning, so emotions are still there.

 

Then Lu speaks clearly about things that students experience along the practice ("free from craving" etc) and that these signs are important, but for sure "have freedom from craving" is not a method (it's clear even from the English text, just read carefully).

 

Don't be confused here, you won't return yuan jing just by controlling your emotions.

 

I wish it would be so simple, but in reality there are a lot of people who can control their emotions and houtian qi, but they have no results even for the first level of Neidan. But they are very good people...

 

Another thing: the initial METHOD of Neidan HAS NEVER BEEN written in any book! So don't follow the logic of scientist who think that everything is in books, and all phrases like "be gentle, don't drink, have no sex, have no emotions" are refer to any Neidan methods.

 

One more: Jing - Qi - Shen schema is not about what WORKS, but about what is RESTORED OR REFINED.

 

It seems to me you've missed some important details in your pursuit to taunt other members and prove your superior knowledge.

 

I speak about basics that people here continuously and intentionally say obviously wrong. Sure they don't like it, but I'm not trying to please them though... Do you want to be between them, and just complain to moderators about my eccentric behaviour?

 

Or do you want to reveal your confusions, prove your correctness and understand Dao the way real Teachers (not me, of course, real patriarchs and high level masters) understand it? It's for you to decide. So far you're not there, as I see it from your posts.

Edited August 4, 2014 by opendao

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Then Lu speaks clearly about things that students experience along the practice ("free from craving" etc) and that these signs are important, but for sure "have freedom from craving" is not a method (it's clear even from the English text, just read carefully).

 

You're missing the obvious wording of the text. I've compared Cleary's translations before. He does use an extensive English vocabulary at times which can make one uncertain of the terms being translated, but you can see that he was translating questions preceding answers, a common literary device in Taoist texts. He wouldn't/doesn't change the flow of the text that much.

 

"The three treasures are not easily obtained. Since they are not easy to obtain, how can we not take care of them? They are to be taken care of, and this is accomplished by purity and tranquility, not agitating the vitality, not letting it leak, so that it abides peacefully in its original home, true to reality as it is, circulating three hundred and sixty-one times in a day and night, returning to its original home, true to its own nature, immutable, forming the stabilizing ingredient of the elixer of immortality."

 

"How is energy to be guarded? This requires freedom from craving, clear openness and serenity, not acting impulsively."

[opendao]

You're missing the obvious wording of the text. I've compared Cleary's translations before. He does use an extensive English vocabulary at times which can make one uncertain of the terms being translated, but you can see that he was translating questions preceding answers, a common literary device in Taoist texts. He wouldn't/doesn't change the flow of the text that much.

 

"The three treasures are not easily obtained. Since they are not easy to obtain, how can we not take care of them? They are to be taken care of, and this is accomplished by purity and tranquility, not agitating the vitality, not letting it leak, so that it abides peacefully in its original home, true to reality as it is, circulating three hundred and sixty-one times in a day and night, returning to its original home, true to its own nature, immutable, forming the stabilizing ingredient of the elixer of immortality."

 

That's all good and I don't see where I said about any reflowing of the text... Anyways, San Bao are accomplished by "purity and tranquillity", but does Lu say a word HOW to get such "purity", so the vitality is not agitating, not leaking and circulating?

 

No. He doesn't tell about the method, just about some signs on the way. It's a trap for people with low De and without a teacher. And it works perfectly to protect the teaching.

 

I understand your point, I've read such sentences the same way as you (and many other people) for a long time, but just imagine for a second that this is not a correct way to read...

 

"How is energy to be guarded? This requires freedom from craving, clear openness and serenity, not acting impulsively."

 

Same thing, There is a requirement, but how to satisfy it?

 

If you get a method, you would know how it works. Then all such texts will be clear (at least to a certain level). But before you have to know from the texts, how to find a teacher and how to understand if the method is correct. That's where Lu's words are priceless.

[Taoist Texts]

That's all good and I don't see where I said about any reflowing of the text... Anyways, San Bao are accomplished by "purity and tranquillity", but does Lu say a word HOW to get such "purity", so the vitality is not agitating, not leaking and circulating?

 

No. He doesn't tell about the method, just about some signs on the way. It's a trap for people with low De and without a teacher.

Yes. A trap. Becouse that's what people with high De (like Lu) do. They lay traps for people with low De.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[安永樂]

---

Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[effilang]

To those whom have the ability to do so, for the purposes of investigating whether our schools' practice is authentic and leads to Yang Shen and Gong, I give you my blessing and invite you to establish a connection with my Fu Fa Shen in order to directly investigate his nature for your selves.

 

Enjoy it

Edited August 4, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

Opendao,

 

I would have a couple of questions concerning the schools you are following and your masters, if I may.

 

What signs of accomplishment can your Chinese teachers demonstrate? In a lot of texts it is said that advanced practitioners of neidan can regrow their teeth, turn their hair from gray back to black, etc.

 

What are the goals of your schools (Wuliu pai and Yuxian pai)? How is immortality understood in your schools?

 

If your schools have produced immortals, then they still must be alive. Where to find them and how to contact them? Can your Chinese teachers bring a student into contact with the immortals of your respective schools?

 

I would appreciate it if you could be specific and exact. Only results matter for me personally. Not an endless flood of words, excuses, evasion and subterfuge.

 

Can you at least provide a photo of the heads of Wuliu pai or Yuxian pai or anything that would somehow solidify your claims? Or any other tangible evidence? Anything?

 

I don't want to be offensive or confrontational, but nowadays we see a lot of tall claims as well as arguing and very little tangible proof.

 

Thank you.

 

If you want to see any real results, you need to travel and meet people with results. Nobody will satisfy your requests over the Internet. As you probably see, I don't ask to provide proves of results from other cultivators here....

 

I can say positive about all your questions, but for real proves you need to do much more actions. This is how it works in this world. You are not the first who is sceptical... All such people has changed their mind after visiting my Teacher.

 

About immortality I wrote before, now I don't have any wish to do it. Wrong thread, wrong people

[effilang]

Naturally, he questions everyone, but when someone questions him; it's the good old disappearing act.

Why am I not surprised .

Edited August 4, 2014 by effilang

[Harmonious Emptiness]

That's all good and I don't see where I said about any reflowing of the text... Anyways, San Bao are accomplished by "purity and tranquillity", but does Lu say a word HOW to get such "purity", so the vitality is not agitating, not leaking and circulating?

 

No. He doesn't tell about the method, just about some signs on the way. It's a trap for people with low De and without a teacher. And it works perfectly to protect the teaching.

 

I understand your point, I've read such sentences the same way as you (and many other people) for a long time, but just imagine for a second that this is not a correct way to read...

 

 

Same thing, There is a requirement, but how to satisfy it?

 

If you get a method, you would know how it works. Then all such texts will be clear (at least to a certain level). But before you have to know from the texts, how to find a teacher and how to understand if the method is correct. That's where Lu's words are priceless.

 

".... So we know that craving is the root of emotions. If you try to control emotions forcibly without extirpating the root, you control nothing but outgrowths..."

 

"How can you remove emotions? The way to remove them is to think there is no self. What is called no self? The self is originally not self; we are not these selves. So what does the self cleave to? Once there is a self and you cling to it as yourself, when clinging to the self as yourself, then nothing is not self. When nothing is not self there is nothing to which the self does not cleave. The country is not one's own, yet one will die for love of it; the home is not one's own, yet one will die for love of it;... When you meditate in this way, what craving will not disappear?"

 

- saying of Lu Dongbin in Cleary's "Vitality, Energy, Spirit"

 

He also explains how to attain purity, tranquility, and clarity, with quite a few words actually, paragraphs even. There are also many other texts which echo his instructions, for further assurance that the instructions were clear and understood. And yes, he does say that texts can be misleading, but explains that this is due to the vague names given, like fire and water, which he and others clarify. For each text that uses these esoteric names, there is another which explains what they mean. Yes, many teachers tried to keep the teachings esoteric and unknown, but there were many others who sought to help those who could not find these masters, by explaining what they meant in their texts. The Book of Balance and Harmony is one of these texts, as well as the writings of Liu I Ming. When you find out what they meant in the texts, true you can see more of the same guidance in some of the more canonical texts.

 

 

I hope you will reconsider your "impulsive actions" in jumping to conclusions and acting belligerent from those assumptions. This will not help your Inner Work a bit.

 

 

"Human nature and feelings are such that people all wish to consider themselves wise and hate to be inferior to others. If you wish to consider yourself wise, then contentiousness arises; if you hate to be inferior to others, then resentment and conflict arise. When resentment and contention arise, then the mind is deranged and one's attitude becomes vicious.

 

Therefore the sage kings of ancient times withdrew from contention and resentment. When contention and resentment do not arise, then the mind is orderly and the attitude is harmonious. Therefore it is said that if sagacity is not valued, this will cause the people not to contend." Wenzi, chapter 132

[opendao]

He also explains how to attain purity, tranquility, and clarity, with quite a few words actually, paragraphs even. There are also many other texts which echo his instructions, for further assurance that the instructions were clear and understood. And yes, he does say that texts can be misleading, but explains that this is due to the vague names given, like fire and water, which he and others clarify. For each text that uses these esoteric names, there is another which explains what they mean. Yes, many teachers tried to keep the teachings esoteric and unknown, but there were many others who sought to help those who could not find these masters, by explaining what they meant in their texts. The Book of Balance and Harmony is one of these texts, as well as the writings of Liu I Ming. When you find out what they meant in the texts, true you can see more of the same guidance in some of the more canonical texts.

 

Don't you find that you're arguing with the entire tradition of Neidan here?

 

Realized teachers say directly that the initial method has been never disclosed, but you think that meditation is the method.

 

A perfected saint (xian) with thousands of students say directly that meditation is not a method, but you clearly see that he is wrong. Based on what? On random texts you think you understand? On your experience?

 

With the total respect to your humble opinion, are you initiated in any lineage from Lu Dongbin or from Wen Zi? Have you received any Neidan method of any school which texts you are so sure about meaning?

 

It's like Vitalii from Zhen Dao, who claims that Huimingjing is about meditation, but who was never been initiated into Wu-Liu tradition. And Huimingjing is a text made by Wu-Liu. Has his opinion any value for Neidan? Sure doesn't.

 

I hope you will reconsider your "impulsive actions" in jumping to conclusions and acting belligerent from those assumptions. This will not help your Inner Work a bit.

 

I wish you the same.

 

Returning to the text, try to apply what I said to the word "meditation" and you would receive a meaning that is not against the tradition... So easy, but I doubt you will do it, so I write mostly to the other people here.

[Daeluin]

If you wish to consider yourself wise, then contentiousness arises; if you hate to be inferior to others, then resentment and conflict arise. When resentment and contention arise, then the mind is deranged and one's attitude becomes vicious.

 

 

Therefore the sage kings of ancient times withdrew from contention and resentment. When contention and resentment do not arise, then the mind is orderly and the attitude is harmonious. Therefore it is said that if sagacity is not valued, this will cause the people not to contend." Wenzi, chapter 132

 

At first I questioned effilang about the terms, and when it became apparent he views them differently than I do - and doesn't seem interested in changing this - I was happy to read between the lines. I have enough clarity on this subject that I can gain from his posts, which do contain much value, without being confused.

 

Also, should I chose to debate about something, I will invite the debate, not demand a battle of right versus wrong.

 

opendao, I'll give you the same advice I gave effilang: get off your pedestal, and you won't have to do all this war waging. The truth is the truth, and needs no spokesman. If people don't want to hear something, applying force is hardly going to help. Those who seek the truth develop skill at reading between the lines, and will be able to sort the true from the false on their own, without someone forcing "correction" upon the other ways. The truth is hidden right now for reasons.

[opendao]

Naturally, he questions everyone, but when someone questions him; it's the good old disappearing act.

Why am I not surprised .

 

If anybody has any questions, that haven't been covered before, feel free to ask. The topic is about XYP, so if you have questions about something else, then ask somewhere else. I will be happy to answer.

 

Have I questioned anyone for any "tangible proofs", "exact and precise answers"? No, I haven't. It has no sense here. So I'm surprised about effilang's behaviour....

[Walker]

Here is a picture of our Grandmaster initiating 4 Quan Zhen 全真 "Complete Perfection" Tao Shi (Taoist Priest) from Tian Hou Gong (Tian Hou Temple)

 

 

Think about why Quan Zhen priests who specialise in Neidan and dual cultivation of Xing and Ming would be inheriting Tao Yin Shu through Xiao Yao Pai if our method was so anti-Taoism?

 

This topic has become most interesting. I thank you guys for taking so much time to write.

 

Three questions about the photo:

 

-Are these actually all Quanzhen priests? One has his hat off and clearly has short hair--he is also wearing jeans. Two others wear headgear that I have observed more on Zhengyi priests and laymen who participating in Daoist ritual.

 

-How do you know that they specialize in neidan? The majority (perhaps vast majority) of Quanzhen priests do not.

 

-Didn't you say elsewhere that the Daoists in this photo had asked you not to post it online?

[opendao]

opendao, I'll give you the same advice I gave effilang: get off your pedestal, and you won't have to do all this war waging. The truth is the truth, and needs no spokesman. If people don't want to hear something, applying force is hardly going to help. Those who seek the truth develop skill at reading between the lines, and will be able to sort the true from the false on their own, without someone forcing "correction" upon the other ways. The truth is hidden right now for reasons.

 

it has sense, but there is a natural amount of hidden details, and there is a tendency to hide more then needed by fooling people.

 

It's a result of some sects and individuals who try to get some power, money etc by using Neidan's name and terminology. It confuses even those who have a fate to learn Neidan in this life. That's why it's necessary to clean some chaos sometimes. Just to create a balance. Think about Wen and Wu.

 

And the things are changing, now less and less people have skills to read between lines. That's why Dao is much open now. Do you teach Neidan?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[..]

 

Realized teachers say directly that the initial method has been never disclosed, but you think that meditation is the method.

 

A perfected saint (xian) with thousands of students say directly that meditation is not a method, but you clearly see that he is wrong. Based on what? On random texts you think you understand? On your experience?

 

[...]

 

Returning to the text, try to apply what I said to the word "meditation" and you would receive a meaning that is not against the tradition... So easy, but I doubt you will do it, so I write mostly to the other people here.

 

I haven't mentioned meditation here either, though sitting meditation is said by Lu Dongbin to be the method of purifying the mind of falsehoods and pollutions. Not to say that the results and gains (gains of space) don't leave the mat with you.

 

 

I wish you the same.

 

Thank you

Edited August 5, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Daeluin]

it has sense, but there is a natural amount of hidden details, and there is a tendency to hide more then needed by fooling people.

 

Oh I'm not saying things should be hidden intentionally. I'm just learning that even when the truth is in the open, it is often still hidden in other ways. The more one attempts to force others to value the truth artificially, the more layers of false interpretation and confusion get built up around it. Even when sitting uncontested in plain site, poignancy is often overlooked unless someone knows what they're looking at.

 

It's a result of some sects and individuals who try to get some power, money etc by using Neidan's name and terminology. It confuses even those who have a fate to learn Neidan in this life. That's why it's necessary to clean some chaos sometimes. Just to create a balance. Think about Wen and Wu.

 

There are different approaches to balance. The Wen and Wu concept seems similar to the creation and controlling cycles of the wuxing. But I've come to understand that the control cycle (which I like to think of as refinement, in neidan), is best practiced without forceful control, but through leading control. We can point out why something is out of balance and work with it on returning to balance, but ultimately the change can only truly be affected by a decision from within. Often controlling people with force backfires, as they may harbor internal resentment even when they go along with the flow just to stop the argument. In fact I'd say forceful control rarely changes things beyond the surface. I think this is true in neidan as well. One can force things, but ultimately relaxation is a major element to getting deeper.

 

Certainly pressure is often necessary when things are out of balance, but in the case of this thread, it has not seemed effective to tell effilang that he is in the absolute "wrong" in terms of the unification of the hou tian san bao. However, we have expressed a different perspective and supportive reasoning and quotes as to why the pre-celestial (xian tian) san bao (three treasures - jing/qi/shen) cannot be cultivated by using the post-celestial (hou tian) san bao. This is clear to any who read this thread, and they will make their own conclusions.

 

You may believe (I don't know if you do or not, but you may) that effilang is trying to confuse the terminology on purpose for gain of some kind. However, I doubt that is the case. effilang seems to fully believe what he is sharing, and likely has a functional understanding that works for him and his school, around this understanding. Perhaps this fundamentally different interpretation of what we think of as traditional neidan operation is being effectively applied in the application of this school's art. It is beyond our capacity to know, unless we join this school.

 

Thus it is clear to all by now that there is a difference, and it is a subtle one. And it is highly unlikely that anything will change, as both sides are content in what works for them. There will always be many ways to the Tao - though the paths are different, the final result is the same. Many of these paths will have understandings incomprehensible to each other. The top of the mountain can be reached from more than one direction, though it may seem baffling to some. Perhaps some ways only lead part way up. But for some lifetimes part way is the goal. We'll all get where we need to in the end. Or we won't.

 

And the things are changing, now less and less people have skills to read between lines. That's why Dao is much open now. Do you teach Neidan?

 

Yeah, things are radically changing. Many people are conditioned so much it is unlikely they will turn around. On the other hand, the energies themselves are radically changing, and who knows what will come in the next decade or so. The masses may not have much skill at reading between the lines, but they sure can follow trends. In any case it isn't up to us to decide what they should be doing with their lives. We can be sincere in how we live and what we believe, and offer our truths to those who want to listen. But what point in offering truth to those without ears? Sounds exhausting, not to mention futile.

 

Much of this is all in the hou tian mind anyway. If those who understand Neidan use it to achieve themselves, they can affect much more effective healing of the masses than with words.

 

No, I don't teach Neidan. Much too soon for that. My teacher teaches Neidan, and has studied the Neidan terminology extensively. But he does not teach us the terminology of neidan. When we ask about details, we are likely to be told when the whole is divided, parts need names. Rather, we are taught internal martial arts. We are taught a few basic principles, like focusing on the lower dan tien. But after that we stay out of our heads and do the work. When our energy behaves a certain way we will receive a word or half a sentence in guidance, and that is all we need. In this way I found myself brushing up against the mysterious pass. It was described to me as "centering yourself in yourself", followed by "centering yourself in the universe". Concepts much more effective at describing the principle than those found in Neidan terminology, especially when one is feeling them. Perhaps not so effective if one merely reads about them. Or maybe it wasn't the mysterious pass - but fortunately that is for me to decide.

[LaoZiDao]

Your teacher is not teaching you anything about Neidan because judging by your description he knows nothing about Neidan. I would say he read some books and that is about it.

 

Neidan terminology extensively. But he does not teach us the terminology of neidan. When we ask about details, we are likely to be told when the whole is divided, parts need names. Rather, we are taught internal martial arts. We are taught a few basic principles, like focusing on the lower dan tien.

Edited August 5, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[LaoZiDao]

Opendao has said many many times, I have seen... and it should be clear. Meditation and related / similar practices are not Neidan methods, never have been and never will be.

Neidan methods are never discussed in books, never have been and never will be, only results. If any Student of a Neidan Master is caught writing down methods, these papers will be destroyed! It is how it always has been. When someone translates a Daoist scripture and they end up with words such as "quite sitting" or "quiting the mind" etc they would assume, Ah! that must mean meditation... because that is all people know..that is all they can relate to. That is why ordinary people cannot read scriptures without a teacher, because they just do not know, they can not understand as they cannot relate. They do not understnad Ming / Yuanqi, not without a teacher and transmission.

 

These are results of Neidan, not methods. Eg After Neidan pracice, your mind will be quite. Thats a result, not a method...its nothing about the actual method, but more details for students who have a teacher, so they can get a deeper understanding. It is easy to mistranslate Chinese to English, there are many assumptions that can be made.

 

If you believe so strongly that meditation is Neidan, then please show me any Masters who claim they are Neidan Master through using meditation methods. It is easy to tell their achievements. Belief does not get you results by the way.

 

"If it is getting critical acclaim and being promoted heavily, you know what time it is. It may contain some truths, but they will be floating in a sea of perversions."

Meditation and Yoga is the popular thing to do, it is heavily promoted, why do you think it can yeild any results? why do you assosiate yourself with that? All modern authors of such books all age and die like normal people... why do you want to folow them?


"sitting meditation is said by Lu Dongbin to be the method of purifying the mind"

Show the origional scripture in Chinese where this has been said, its a misintepretation.

Edited August 5, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[zerostao]

This topic has become most interesting. I thank you guys for taking so much time to write.

 

Three questions about the photo:

 

-Are these actually all Quanzhen priests? One has his hat off and clearly has short hair--he is also wearing jeans. Two others wear headgear that I have observed more on Zhengyi priests and laymen who participating in Daoist ritual.

 

-How do you know that they specialize in neidan? The majority (perhaps vast majority) of Quanzhen priests do not.

 

-Didn't you say elsewhere that the Daoists in this photo had asked you not to post it online?

I was the one who originally posted this on a related thread last year. Yes, I had been asked not to post it because of politics.

those who know me here on this board know that i disregard politics. I posted it in order to reach out to friends here on the board, i was "recruiting" and it was I, acting alone doing the recruiting. And rather than recruiting, it is/was more like me just wanting to share. On this board there are many who do advertise and recruit, there are those that sell glass saying it is a diamond, etc and I have been on this journey awhile and became a little zealous when I experienced what I did with XYP. I will double check about your other questions Walker and let you know. it was 3 Quanzen priests and the tour guide. i do know that. and they were not the only Priests initiated, but for protection of the others privacy, there will be no more photos published here.

 

In my own defence of this, let me say this. from my own study about XYP, I found that in 1970 the GM of XYP decided to accept some disciples and then those disciples begged the GM to accept their family and friends and it began to spread.

In 2000 there was plea for the GM to open to the west. He refused, but after persistent begging from the higher level disciples, in 2007 the GM agreed to open to the west. In 2009 the first event in the US happened and i attended the 2012 event. From the Initiation till now it has been amazing. So, my intent wasnt anything bad, i just wanted to share with my friends here on TTB and most likely Effilang is motivated along this same thought line as I am. I am not judging any other's systems or schools, i was and am only trying to share this delicious practice with my friends. Also, i was a little naive about the level of control that the Chinese government has over religion there.

[Daeluin]

Your teacher is not teaching you anything about Neidan because judging by your description he knows nothing about Neidan. I would say he read some books and that is about it.

 

If you say so!

Edited August 5, 2014 by Daeluin