Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[zerostao]

i am going to step out of the neidan conversation, as interesting as it may be.

in my experience with XYP my practice has been Tao Yin Shu. (literally guidance art)

and my understanding is that with Hou Tian or Nei Dan or whatever name, you will need a Shifu

to guide you. so, the Shifu will get us started and teach us but like swimming, it is up to us to get it right.

the Shifu can not swim for us. we have to learn how to float on our own and propel thru the water on our own.

and if we get it right, we progress thru jing to qi to shen which will activate the shen to connect with the Divine realm.

then we can move from the physical and energy (jing>qi>shen) to the spirit cultivation (Yuan Shen)

 

If someday when meditating your body moves naturally it means you are already connected with divine energy and start your spirit cultivation. It is a sign that you are on the right path. This is basic system in Taoist spirituality. All starts from physical and energy cultivation then refine it into spirit realm to connect with divine energy then use this divine energy and guidance in the next level. Why do we need guidance? Its because we actually know nothing about perfection. We do not know the way that we must walk on to reach it. Those who already achieve this level will agree with my explanation. But for those who have not achieved this level yet will never understand it and even deny this theory. I just hope any one to have an open mind. You must refine your Qi become Shen and your Shen will connect with Divine energy. Then you are on the Way to TAO. It is not the end of your journey but merely the beginning. In XYP we call this energy Shen Gong. It is transformational energy after Qigong. The energy of Qigong exists inside physical realm but Shen Gong exists inside spirit realm. That is the system that is used in most of Taoist school to develop ‘Shen’.

And this only can happen if your method is based on ziran (naturalness) and wuwei (effortless). If not, you will never get it.

 

In XYP we use a different way to develop ‘our shen’. the Grand Master in XYP is one who already cultivated. It means they already have Shen energy. At the initiation we are given ‘Shen’ energy that wrapped our body. Those who have clairvoyance will see it as golden aura that shields our body.

How does Shen energy work? This energy will induct ‘our shen’. We are like steel and Shen energy is like a magnet. This energy inducts us to become magnet. This energy activates ‘our shen’ then makes a bridge into our our qi and our physical (jing). Once the bridge is developed it is easier to transform.

 

So actually all systems will move into similar direction but in XYP our GM helps us with his Shen energy to activate our Shen energy then connect us with Divine energy (Shen Xian)

Edited August 5, 2014 by zerostao

[ChiDragon]

Please note that not everybody knows and teaches Neidan. One does not expect a martial artist to teach Neidan. Neidan is to be practiced by True Taoists.

[Daeluin]

If a Master decides to teach "Internal Alchemy", are there limitations on the method, so long as the result is achieved?

 

If the principles of "Internal Alchemy" are applied, to they need to be applied by use of words and understanding, or is that simply part of the method, but not the result? I hear LaoZiDao saying the result is what is most important, not the method.

 

ChiDragon: What you expect me to do is very different from what I actually do.

[ChiDragon]

If a Master decides to teach "Internal Alchemy", are there limitations on the method, so long as the result is achieved?

 

If the principles of "Internal Alchemy" are applied, to they need to be applied by use of words and understanding, or is that simply part of the method, but not the result? I hear LaoZiDao saying the result is what is most important, not the method.

 

ChiDragon: What you expect me to do is very different from what I actually do.

 

Yes, the result is important. It would be more advantageous if the practitioner understands the principles of the method. Thus it would be more encouraging to do the practice and the result might be achieved quicker. It might take longer to get to the result if one doesn't understand the method with words. I would say that the method and the result are equally important. One would know what to do if one knows what the method is about. For example, most people do not understand that Chi Kung has a lot to do with breathing. If they don't learn the breathing method, then, they will not get the result of Chi Kung at all. Same thing with Tai Ji, if one practices Tai Ji but doesn't understand its concept, progress might not be taken place as effective as expected.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"sitting meditation is said by Lu Dongbin to be the method of purifying the mind"

 

Show the origional scripture in Chinese where this has been said, its a misintepretation.

 

I don't have the original scripture in Chinese, but I can see by the translation that it is obviously describing sitting meditation. The tone of this conversation is no longer fit to bring in sacred textual references.

 

Perhaps you will be kind enough to explain: why must one not sit while the mind is purified?

Edited August 5, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

...... why must one not sit while the mind is purified?

 

This is a very ambiguous statement........

Edited August 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I don't have the original scripture in Chinese, but I can see by the translation that it is obviously describing sitting meditation. The tone of this conversation is no longer fit to bring in sacred textual references.

 

Perhaps you will be kind enough to explain: why must one not sit while the mind is purified?

 

keep in mind that the point made is:

 

"These are results of Neidan, not methods. "

 

 

But your question seems to still be about a method-idea.

[Daeluin]

Yes, the result is important. It would be more advantageous if the practitioner understands the principles of the method. Thus it would be more encouraging to do the practice and the result might be achieved quicker. It might take longer to get to the result if one doesn't understand the method with words. I would say that the method and the result are equally important. One would what to do if one knows what the method is about. For example, most people do not understand that Chi Kung has a lot to do with breathing. If they don't learn the breathing method, then, they will not get the result of Chi Kung at all. Same thing with Tai Ji, if one practices Tai Ji but doesn't understand its concept, progress might not be taken place as effective as expected.

 

I might've agreed with this once. As it is, dedicating myself to tai chi practice and getting out of my head, allowed my energy to change in tremendous ways. With my Sifu guiding my energy subtly, and dropping a hint to point the way here and there, I followed the way I was led without worrying about where I was going. I'm pretty sure I brushed against the Jin Dan - I didn't fully enter the mysterious pass, and at the time I had no idea what was happening, but also for this reason I was able to simply trust and follow the guidance. My internal awareness of myself was completely brimming with golden light, all throughout, and when I tried to feel a particular center of myself, there was no center... any part was the center, it was simply all one. Anywhere I focused was fused in oneness, indistinguishable from any other part. As I was guided to then center myself in the universe, I began to lose this, as my mind started taking over and wondering how I would actually do that. (We do a blend of standing, sitting, and moving exercises, and this happened while sitting.)

 

That was a couple years ago now, and I attained that after only a year of practice. Since then other "results" have manifested, all in line with the concepts of Neidan. After one beautiful experience in effortless, full body pore breathing with embryo breathing, I heard my Sifu say and thus there is heaven on earth. Eventually I made the connection to the merging of ☰ and ☷, and after some investigation of principle realized this is likely what I had experienced.

 

Recently I've been studying Neidan from the classics in depth, so that I may understand better what I am doing. It is not my Sifu's job to make sure I understand this - if I want to take what he has shown me further, I better be able to do so on my own, without hand holding. This is unspoken between us, and this is what I want for my training. It took a while to make a connection to the Jin Dan, and deci belle's posts here seem in alignment with what I experienced. It also helped to uncover the connection between the Jin Dan and the Mysterious Pass. The past couple years, in addition to studying, I've been working on other layers, building a foundation from which I may train without interruption, and studying the nature of change and momentum.

 

In any case, I am sure any others who are of a purist path will undoubtedly say this is not Neidan, or not true Neidan, and that is completely fine. I'm not trying to prove anything or seek external validation. My path is my own, as are my experiences and understandings. Try to cut away at them if you will, but what is the point?

 

My point is that results are possible without understanding, but from simply doing, if one does correctly. Perhaps what I consider results don't align with what you consider results. And that is fine. My intent with this conversation is to help dissolve stagnation based on fixed perspectives of understanding and thereby help us all support each other in our common goals. Even though we may define terms differently, we all seem to be on the same path.

 

Perhaps it helps to have an understanding, but there are many types and ways of understanding, and many may lead to the same exact effects using completely different concepts. In any case, once one is getting results, one had best empty their mind of thoughts and let it be one with the process.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Daeluin

[flowing hands]

Man (Ren / 人) - Is situated between heaven and earth. As such, at birth we have the maximum potential to cultivate either in favor of Earth or in favor of Heaven; by refining our 3 bodies (physical, energy, spirit) to become either more Yin or more Yang.

 

We are equipped with a refined spiritual essence which allows us through the right practice methods to bring our 3 bodies into unified perfection and enable our return to the primordial Tao of origination.

 

A completely Yin body is dead, begins to return to the earth through decomposition and emits a strong Yin energy. Hence our UTUT mantra used for repelling the Yin energy of any dead bodies in our vicinity.

 

A completely Yang body is the peak of life and can be prepared to ascend into heaven as an immortal. It emits strong Yang energy.

 

In esoteric Taoism our aim is to cultivate our 3 bodies by sublimating all their Yin aspects into complete Yang radiance.

 

Fundamentally the human energetic matrix is composed of three very broad energies called

 

The Three Treasures (San Bao / 三宝)

These are known as JING (精), QI(氣) and SHEN(神).

 

Loosely described JING refers to physical aspects of the body concerning dense matter ie: bones, muscles, tendons, blood, sexual fluids and tissues.

 

JING corresponds to the Lower Elixir Field (Xia Dan Tien / 下丹田).

Of the three treasures it vibrates at the lowest level of frequency, hence its attribution to the densest forms of matter in the body.

 

The slower the atoms vibrate and the less space they have between themselves in a molecular structure, the denser and more physical the material is eg: a rock.

 

The faster the atoms vibrate and the less packed together they are, the more flexible and permeable the structure will be: eg: water

 

Qi corresponds to the Middle Elixir Field (Zhong Dan Tien / 中丹田).

It refers to the internal and external energetic matrix of the body and includes individual organ energies, meridian Qi, external energetic fields etc.

 

Qi vibrates at levels much faster than Jing.

If we liken Jing to ice, then Qi is like water.

 

Shen corresponds to the Upper Elixir Field (Shang Dan Tien / 上丹田).

It refers to the spirit energies of the body and governs functions such as consciousness, the eternal soul etc.

 

Shen in this rough approximation is thus like steam.

 

In reality though it is far beyond the grasps of both time, space and distance and can function 4 or 5 dimensionally.

 

JING QI & SHEN are interconnected and one gives birth to the other.

 

Thus, Jing can be accumulated and through meditative practices sublimated into Qi by raising it's vibration. Further more, through refinement Qi can be transmuted into Shen.

 

This is the Earth to Heaven (Hou Tian) process of generation.

 

However there is a reverse process in which Shen can be stepped down to generate Qi and Qi can be transmuted into Jing.

 

This is the Heaven to Earth (Xian Tian) process of generation.

 

Because of this intermingling energetic structure the whole system can support itself interchangeably depending on what is required to maintain homeostasis.

 

During embryological and fetal development we do not breath through the lungs. Energetic (non physical) sustenance is absorbed from our mother directly through her Conception Vessel (Ren Mai) while nutritional (physical) via the umbilical chord and placenta.

 

In this way we perform what Taoists refer to as fetal breathing, where all our energy is circulated internally through all 12 primary and 8 extra meridians without the need for direct cardio-pulmonary excitation.

 

The baby's tongue is kept lightly pressed against the hard section of the oral pallet to help promote the flow of energy between it's conception and governing vessels (Ren and Du). This can be observed during sonographic scans.

 

Once we are born our butts are promptly smacked to welcome us into being and our umbilical chord is cut, leading to the first inhalation of air through our lungs.

 

This is the end of fetal breathing, although the breath at this point is still low in the belly.

 

As time passes it gradually moves away form the Xia Dan Tien and settles in the chest.

 

The Hou Tian Shu school of Taoism believes that the strength of our vitality and the relative Yin/Yang nature of the body can be measured in a value of 64 points accumulated every 32 months. Thus a toddler aged 2 years and 6 months would have developed one unit of the positive Yang principle.

 

When the child reaches 5 years and 4 months, it would have accumulated 2 units of the positive Yang principle.

 

When it is 16 years of age (192 months), it would have developed 6 units of the positive Yang principle and have all together 384 points accumulated) (64 x 6 = 384).

 

As we begin to live in the world and delight in the pleasures of the body and mind, our 384 points and 6 units of positive Yang principle begin to leak out.

 

Thus the ancient Taoists said.

 

See, but do not look.

Touch, but do not feel.

Hear, but do not listen.

Smell, but do not delight.

Taste, but do not savor.

 

This poem refers to the 5 senses, through which it is believed the vitality leaks out once the spirit engages with the pleasure of the sense.

 

Because of these beliefs, ancient Taoists chose to live a life of moderation in the aim of regulating the vitality of the body and preserving the positive Yang principle to aid in spiritual cultivation.

 

If the leakage of energy is not moderated or stopped, the positive Yang vitality principle will decrease gradually in proportion to its Yin principle which will accumulate, pulling us away from the heavenly and into the mortality of earthly existence.

 

Thus, onwards from the 16th year, 6 units of vitality and 384 points, a new negative Yin principle will develop every 96 months, in such a way that at 24 years of age another negative Yin unit of principle develops and through continuous unregulated leakage of vitality by the senses, the Yin principle will continue to accumulate, therefore:

 

At 32 yrs, the negative principle is now 2 units.

 

At 40 yrs, the negative principle is now 3 units.

 

At 48 yrs, the negative principle is now 4 units.

 

At 56 yrs, the negative principle is now 5 units.

 

At 64 yrs, the negative principle is now 6 units and the Yang principle is 0.

 

At this point we become completely Yin, we are often sickly, with weak bones, diseases, grey hair, aching knees, weak internal organs and health doesn't seem to get better, only worse, leading us gradually into the grave.

 

So, Hou Tian Shu schools of Taoism determined that in order to fortify the body and prevent aging and death one had to eliminate the negative principle and cultivate the Yang principle back into life.

 

Because of abusing our bodies with improper food, our minds with improper thoughts, and our energy with improper interactions, after so many years our JING is weakened, our Qi is irregular and feeble and our Shen is in a state of dismay.

 

So, to reverse the process, they began to regulate the 5 senses and the leakage of vitality by balancing how they lived their lives and expended their energy, with the aim of restoring the JING so that it can restore the QI, and the QI can restore the SHEN, strengthening the whole complex.

 

They experimented with many methods of energy conservation ie: Not talking (silent monks), not eating (asceticism), not looking (dark-room retreats), not having sex (physical celibacy), controlling the 6th consciousness of the acquired-ego-mind (mind celibacy) etc.

 

They all showed efficacy in conserving vitality and after time they noticed that practicing moderation, strengthened and invigorated their systems, each in their own accord.

 

Of all these one method was most effective: sexual celibacy as the most amount of vitality was lost during sexual ejaculation (men) and menstruation (women). Hence practices leading to their cessation such as "Slaying The White Tiger and Beheading The Red Dragon" were created.

 

Through conserving or stopping sexual activity, after 100 days of determination, ancient Hou Tian Shu Taoists established that the Jing could be strengthened and 64 points of positive Yang principle could be restored to the body. Now 5 Yin and 1 Yang

 

After 200 days another positive Yang principle was restored. Now 4 Yin and 2 Yang.

 

After 300 days another positive Yang principle was restored. Now 3 Yin and 3 Yang and sight and hearing was replenished

 

After 400 days another positive Yang principle was restored. Now 2 Yin and 4 Yang and, white hair turned black again.

 

After 500 days another another positive Yang principle was restored. Now 1 Yin and 5 Yang.

 

After 600 days another positive Yang principle was restored. Now 0 Yin and 6 Yang.

 

Thus after 600 days of celibacy of the mind and body, Hou Tian Xiu practitioners could return their bodies to the vigor of the 16 year old bearing the 6 Yang principles and 384 points of vitality.

 

All this was done in order to return the body back to a Yang state in preparation for advanced spiritual work and immortality arts. This is why a form of pseudo Xian Tian Shu exists in Hou Tian Shu, during which young virgin children of ages 14 to 16 are initiated into alchemical practice in order to take advantage of their almost completely Yang state, which will significantly reduce the time required to reach the ultimate goal of immortality.

 

An incredibly strong determination is required on part of those who practice Hou Tian Shu, as you can imagine sexual activity is a big part of our modern lives and is difficult if not impossible to exclude if you are an integrated part of society.

 

Due to this, you will find that there are many Hou Tian Shu Taoists whom become hermits or monks in order to avoid the temptation of their 5 senses and their respective arousal by the delights and pleasures of life.

 

So in Hou Tian Shu, the refinement is started from JING, then JING is accumulated through body celibacy and with the inseparable catalysis of mind celibacy by means of meditation it is transmuted into a higher vibrational state of Qi.

 

During this complicated alchemical process, the process of energetic refinement is moved from the Lower Elixir Field to the Middle Elixir Field where the Qi is then further refined into Shen, at which point the process of refinement moves up to the Upper Elixir Field, where the Shen is further cultivated to merge into the void of the Wuji, dispersing into the Tao to achieve Gong (Emptiness)

 

This is the ultimate goal of cultivation; to merge the 3 bodies into one diamond immortal body, taking with us our personality.

 

This is the state of the pure Yang Shen body, where the Yin principle has been completely eliminated and all 10 souls (the 3 hun and the 7 po) have been merged into one immortal.

 

If we do not attain this goal in Hou Tian Shu until old age, then the JING (physical body) will become too weak to support the Qi and the Qi will disperse and the Spirit having no body to reside in will abandon the shell. This is physical death.

 

After death the Shen will move into the higher dimensions in preparation for other journeys or reincarnations.

 

So like it was mentioned recently in an e-mail, the spirit can be made to leave the body by two means (although there are others):

 

1. To make the JING and body very weak and bring it near the brink of death to coax the spirit to leave.

 

or

 

2. To accumulate Jing so it can create Qi which can strengthen the Shen to such a level, that it can willfully leave the body.

 

So this is why Hou Tian Shu means POST Heaven Cultivation, because the body is in a Yin (Earth) state by the time we begin to practice it and we have lost much of our positive Yang (Heaven) principle.

 

Hou Tian Shu, is not easy. It is the hardest undertaking any human can undergo, and to those of us who do not have access to such rare schools like Xiao Yao Pai in order to learn authentic Xian Tian Shu, it is the only way to cultivate immortality.

 

So this is HTS. Earth to Heaven.

 

In this respect Xiao Yao Pai is a blessing to practitioners.

You could live 1000 life times and not once come across what we learn.

 

To me, It truly is something remarkable.

 

But why? Here's why.

 

During Hou Tian Shu, we cultivate ourselves alone.

The problem with this is that we are all structured differently, physically, energetically and spiritually.

 

We have different blockages 3 x 3 levels deep and they are specific to our constitution as a result of our genetics and interactions with our world.

 

No two people are alike.

 

Now imagine you have 100 people practicing the same Qigong set in a hall. Quite frankly they have no idea, their teacher says its good for them and they do it. What they don't understand however is that every Qigong set and movement is designed to stimulate specific meridians and organs in the body, so 50 of those people may have a Yin deficient liver and may tonify it and alleviate the internal imbalance, but the remaining 50 may have a Yin excess liver so instead of actually helping them, the additional Yin energy generated by the Qigong movements in the liver is exacerbating the condition.

 

At the end of the day half of them will go back home and say the Qigong class was bullshit, it just made me sicker, while the other half will claim that they felt the hand of Jesus touch them.

 

This is the crux of the difficulty with practicing Hou Tian Shu, because nobody at a low level of cultivation is capable of accurate self diagnosis to determine what regimen is appropriate for THEIR specific condition, so they end up often causing more harm than good by concentrating on specialized exercises. It is only at the much higher levels that accurate diagnostic skills are acquired at the Shen level. So you need already have moved from the Xia Tan Tien to the Shang Tan Tien.

 

Some of these people will practice for 30 years and have no spiritual skill at all. It is truly a shame.

 

This is where our school really stands out.

 

Instead of cultivating JING to QI to SHEN, during initiation we are directly connected to a Xian Shen or Tian Shen (Immortal Spirit or Heavenly Spirit) - whom exist in a dimension far above ours and have a skill so refined that they can hand pick each and every one of your imbalances and cure it directly.

 

If you have an imbalance in your liver, it will prescribe something specifically for that.

If you have an issue with your heart, it will prescribe something specifically for that.

 

Whatever the issue is, whether of the physical, energetic or spirit/mind body, your Fu Fa Shen will approach your refinement through divine wisdom.

 

It will not spend time on that which needs no attention, but only on that which does. This is not something we can do on our own due to our limited perception and diagnostic skills.

 

Because of this privilege, those of us who practice Tao Yin Shu through Xiao Yao Pai are literally on a straight highway to immortality.

 

There is no Zig Zagging involved.

 

Further, because we are a Xian Tian Shu school, we first begin the refinement of the Shen which after time then refines the Qi, which then refines the Jing.

 

This is why you will hear from some practitioners seeing the falling snow and dancing flowers in front of the eyes in the early stages of practising TYS, which is one of the final processes during Hou Tian Shu cultivation and pertains to the opening of the Bai Hui / Heavenly Gate at the top of the head to allow our spirit to exit the body.

 

Some of our practitioners from the London event have already achieved being able to come out of their body with their spirit and it hasn't even been a month yet.

 

Those who practice Hou Tian Shu, will have a very strong body at the early stages due to the very well refined Jing and this may prolong the life of the physical body, but will not lead them into immortality unless they can refine their Jing to Qi, the Qi to Shen and the Shen to Wuji.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai however, we begin refining the spirit from day one and our 3 bodies are enveloped with a protective golden aura, so that even if our spirit comes out of the body at an early stage when it is still an infant, it will be protected from any forms of magical attack or encounters with other spirits.

 

In Hou Tian Shu, we do not have this advantage and when we get to the stage of seeing the falling snow and dancing flowers, once our spirit comes out of the top of the head, it is still a baby Shen and is vulnerable to attack, and our empty body left open for possession. This is why we immediately recall it back into the Upper Elixir Field as soon as it comes out for the first time, lest we may lose it.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, the golden Ling Qi aura protects us and further more your Fu Fa Shen can help you when you ask it for assistance directly or if you are under attack.

 

Having the honour of being initiated means not spending a life time searching for teachers or cultivating on your own, deciphering complicated books, learning all the firing times of the alchemical process, knowing when to breathe and when not to breathe, knowing all the different channel routes and configurations of energy movements, learning Chinese or travelling to china to seek the truth.

 

You FFS will guide you through every process of alchemical cultivation and bear in mind the microcosmic and macrocosmic timings on your behalf.

 

It means quite simply that the Master comes to your house to give you private lessons. So even if you are retarded and never read a book in your life, or can't even spell Taoism. You will still be on your way to surpassing most all Hou Tian Shu practitioners that exist in the world today, providing you put in the regular practice hours with your Fu Fa Shen or whichever other immortal it is that you request the presence of!

 

Think about it for a moment. That's like Bruce Lee coming to your house to teach you Jeet Kune Do or Ip Man knocking on your door to teach you one on one Wing Chun. The difference is that with us Tao Yu, an Immortal comes to our house to teach us Immortality.

 

There is no faster or more effective way that I know of and I hope through this modest explanation that you all have a better appreciation for the gift we have been granted and hope you practice diligently to put the potential of your human existence to it's ultimate usage; that of your own self realization and liberation from the cycle of reincarnation.

 

I feel very lucky to have to come from a traditional Hou Tian Shu background, because I can now use my knowledge and experience to cultivate both from Earth to Heaven through JING conservation with body and mind celibacy a la Taoist Yoga and Heaven to Earth through Xiao Yao Pai, simultaneously.

 

 

 

There is such alot wrong with this post in factual alchemy that I really don't know where to start.

 

Well the concept of 'jing' what is it? Its certainly not as described like some strange entity that exists in the body. It is you, me, what we are, the sum total of all that has made us from the very beginning of all things. It is qi, it is Shen, without it we have no qi or shen they are not separate entities. The process of qi and shen, though having said this, is controlled by what we have inherited; this influences our cultivation. Some people have no need for sexual abstinence but can enhance their qi and shen. Some peoples jing; they cannot cultivate without abstinence, there really is no set rule only on how the body reacts to cultivation. Qi cannot be refined to shen. To become an Immortal you must cultivate a yin body energy balanced then with yang. The spirit world is yin, to enter the spirit world and be powerful in that world one cultivates the yin side, the yang side cultivates the material world. The golden light comes from the spirit world of yin not yang.

 

This is just an outward expression, one must face the self, and realize the nine teachings of Daoism, with this understanding, Immortality can be obtained. The three treasures are you in total, they are not separate and depend on each other to make you what you are.

 

I have made my views known about this system and some of the things in it that are very questionable on another post and I see no need to repeat myself. If people want to follow this system then that's up to them.

[ChiDragon]

In any case, I am sure any others who are of a purist path will undoubtedly say this is not Neidan, or not true Neidan, and that is completely fine. I'm not trying to prove anything or seek external validation. My path is my own, as are my experiences and understandings. Try to cut away at them if you will, but what is the point?

 

 

My point is that results are possible without understanding, but from simply doing, if one does correctly. Perhaps what I consider results don't align with what you consider results. And that is fine. My intent with this conversation is to help dissolve stagnation based on fixed perspectives of understanding and thereby help us all support each other in our common goals. Even though we may define terms differently, we all seem to be on the same path.

 

I couldn't agree more. Comprehension is one's words by intuition from the experience of the practice. If one only knew how to repeat what the Master says or somebody else's, then, one should be wondered has s/he learnt the basic concept at all. It is true a Master may be good with the methods. However, the master might not know the latest possible way to explain them to the disciples. Especially, there may be a language barrier. In some cases, the end result may be, only, depends on how much was the student absorbed by his/her comprehension of the concept.

 

I always like to compare between my understanding and others to get good feel of it. I will make corrections if there is a need for it. Otherwise, I will stay with the original idea until another supersedes.

[LaoZiDao]

You need to cultivate Youwei before Wuwei. Youuwei meaning you have to activity persue Dao, train hard, with effort. You cannot achieve anything without effort, so how is it that you understand Wuwei?

 

The wheel wont turn by it self, not without first taking action and effort.

[ChiDragon]

You need to cultivate Youwei before Wuwei. Youuwei meaning you have to activity persue Dao, train hard, with effort. You cannot achieve anything without effort, so how is it that you understand Wuwei?

 

The wheel wont turn by it self, not without first taking action and effort.

 

Yes, you are quite right. One only practice YouWei(有為) once is to be WuWei(無為). Initially, YouWei(有為) will give one the intention to be WuWei(無為).

 

One wants to cultivate WuWei(無為) but not YouWei(有為) is because it is the opposite of WuWei(無為).

[opendao]

and if we get it right, we progress thru jing to qi to shen which will activate the shen to connect with the Divine realm.

then we can move from the physical and energy (jing>qi>shen) to the spirit cultivation (Yuan Shen)

 

jing in Neidan is not physical at all

 

You must refine your Qi become Shen and your Shen will connect with Divine energy. Then you are on the Way to TAO. It is not the end of your journey but merely the beginning.

 

in Neidan schools, if done correctly, then refining Qi into Shen is not a beginning at all. It's a very high stage (3rd out of 4). So you speak about something unrelated to Neidan.

 

In XYP we call this energy Shen Gong. It is transformational energy after Qigong. The energy of Qigong exists inside physical realm but Shen Gong exists inside spirit realm. That is the system that is used in most of Taoist school to develop ‘Shen’.

 

Really? Maybe you forgot to tell them and they know nothing about it... Even if you jump over your head using any external help, and activate your Shen without refining first Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi, then you won't have anything to work with and will go into a "deadly emptiness" and wouldn't be able to create the Elixir.... Qigong won't help at all, it's all post heaven, it doesn't work with San Bao.

 

And this only can happen if your method is based on ziran (naturalness) and wuwei (effortless). If not, you will never get it.

 

Ziran and Wuwei comes on a really high stage, when nobody cares about San Bao any more. So again it's not Wuwei by Lao Zi.

 

In XYP we use a different way to develop ‘our shen’. the Grand Master in XYP is one who already cultivated. It means they already have Shen energy. At the initiation we are given ‘Shen’ energy that wrapped our body. Those who have clairvoyance will see it as golden aura that shields our body.

How does Shen energy work? This energy will induct ‘our shen’. We are like steel and Shen energy is like a magnet. This energy inducts us to become magnet. This energy activates ‘our shen’ then makes a bridge into our our qi and our physical (jing). Once the bridge is developed it is easier to transform.

 

Wait, wait! Effiliang spoke so pathetic about Tian Xian as FFS, now we have only your Grand Master Shen's energy... How come? Where is FFS in your description? No FFS any more, ok...

 

What you describe here is a usual process of master-student relationship, it happens in any traditional Chinese art (calligraphy, martial arts etc). It has nothing in common with XYP's statements like "we are unique, we start with Shen, because we ask Lao Zi to provide FFS to every students, and FFS enriches the spirit of the student, that's why we go Shen - Qi - Jing while all Neidan schools traditionally work Jing-Qi-Shen".

 

So there is no Neidan here at all.

 

Maybe somebody wants to experience all these "unique" procedures, but I've eaten it a lot before and I see nothing new... Open any Mantak Chia book, you will see same ... things about Kan-Li, Pre / Post, Divine energy, harmony and effortless wuwei...

Edited August 6, 2014 by opendao

[Daeluin]

I have made my views known about this system and some of the things in it that are very questionable on another post and I see no need to repeat myself. If people want to follow this system then that's up to them.

 

I resonate with what you describe, and I would like to read more - can you (or someone) please point me to the correct thread or post?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

keep in mind that the point made is:

 

"These are results of Neidan, not methods. "

 

 

But your question seems to still be about a method-idea.

 

That's why I ask "why must one not sit while the mind is purified?"

 

I would agree that there are practices which are for training, and then there is when the light is turned on and something else is happening, which I think was expressed in my first post a few pages ago. Once that light is turned on, I can see why one would say "it's not by your methods that a b and c." Once you connect to the Source, the methods are forgotten.

 

I'm getting the impression that people are getting hung up on isolated quotations about methods, perhaps without fully understanding them. And also, it would seem for as many times as I've read "the method is not written," I've read "the truth is only written in secret codes, but out of compassion for humanity I will tell you what it means and the way to get there."

 

At this point, I still don't know that the people we're talking to have enough background knowledge to say what they're saying, even though they might otherwise be getting a far better education on the matter than, well, me at least...

[LaoZiDao]

I hear LaoZiDao saying the result is what is most important, not the method.

 

Where I said that? I never said that.

Edited August 6, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[Daeluin]

Oh, perhaps I heard what you didn't intend to say.

 

In any case, it seems the results are the point of the methods, and the methods themselves are based on principles, and meant to be adjusted according to the circumstances.

[Daeluin]

That's why I ask "why must one not sit while the mind is purified?"

 

I would agree that there are practices which are for training, and then there is when the light is turned on and something else is happening, which I think was expressed in my first post a few pages ago. Once that light is turned on, I can see why one would say "it's not by your methods that a b and c." Once you connect to the Source, the methods are forgotten.

 

It's still a question about a method, and you didn't seem to feel safe sharing the instruction on the method, so it's hard, at least for me, to really understand your question.

 

But it sounds like a question about non-doing, which is the cultivation of xing once the ming is complete.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio:

 

As for those who have not understood the discourses about "non-doing" (wuwei), some guard the Yellow Court, and others concentrate on their fontanel; some concentrate on the top of their nose, and others contemplate the Hall of Light; some guard the point below the navel, and others concentrate on the Spinal Handle; some contemplate emptiness, and others contemplate the mind; some stop their thoughts, and others forget their forms; some silently have audience with the Supreme Emperor, others reflect their form in a mirror and coagulate their Spirit, and others concentrate on their Spirit in order to "exit the Shell."

 

There are more than one thousand methods like these. Although their motives are not identical, they all stick to emptiness in the same way. If you think that this is the Way or "non-doing," you are greatly in error.

 

Sticking to emptiness and clinging to phenomenal appearances is like embellishing a stinky leather bag with needlework, or being fond of a pouch filled with holes. How can those people know that the great Way of the sages and the worthies does not stick to emptiness, does not cling to phenomenal appearances, and lies in what is neither emptiness nor form?

 

.........

 

"Non-doing" does not refer to the discourses about looking like "withered wood" or "cold ashes." Essentially, if you do not possess the True Seed, you must adopt a method in order to take hold of it. Once you possess it, the Original Root returns. Then you should hasten to strengthen it and fortify it, to seal it and store it; you will have to "bathe" and "nourish warmly," to avoid the dangers and ponder the perils, in order to protect the wholeness of that Original Root. Otherwise, you will suffer again from its loss. If you are able to do this, you will have "a body outside your body" and your Spirit will pervade throughout. "In utter sincerity there is foreknowledge": will there be anything you do not know?

 

I feel I've experienced some of what this refers to, but not enough to feel comfortable commenting. If some others are fully comfortable in their experience of these teachings, I too would be welcoming of their compassionate guidance.

[dawei]

I resonate with what you describe, and I would like to read more - can you (or someone) please point me to the correct thread or post?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31585-xiao-yao-pai/

[Daeluin]

Thank you dawei, very illuminating.

 

I find it interesting that in that thread the Fu Fa Shen is described as a Shen Xian, but in this thread the Fu Fa Shen is described as a Tian Xian.

 

It seems likely a Shen Xian could help one develop spiritually to a high level, but as any Shen Xian has likely lost their "corpse" and are unable to now become a Tian Xian, following principle they would have trouble guiding the way to becoming a Tian Xian.

 

What Flowing Hands says about the golden light being an expression of spiritual development, but needing to be re-integrated makes much sense. And Liu Yiming also terms the Yuan San Bao as yin energies. To transcend earth we must refine and replenish our ming, to transcend heaven we must refine and replenish our xing and awaken our dormant spiritual capacity - but to venture beyond heaven and earth we must unite them into one and go to the root before they have come into being.

 

This is also in line with the teachings of "Excess of the Great", the concept of turning the light around, and the concept of the Valley Spirit:

 

The Spirit of the Valley never dies:
it is called Mysterious-Female.
The gate of the Mysterious-Female
is called root of Heaven and Earth.

 

Harmonious Emptiness, this also seems very related to the purpose of non-doing, which I feel might be expressed as allowing your cultivated spiritual development to be turned around and to face itself down to the deepest level. Thus xing is cultivated while ming is not lost. And one may do this any way one likes, but the key is to maintain this state consistently as it goes deeper and is tempered by the challenges of life around us. If we only do this in emptiness we are not learning to maintain this state in the real world. If we only do it part of the time how does it become a permanent facet of our cultivated selves? At least this is my working understanding.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Daeluin

[opendao]

That's why I ask "why must one not sit while the mind is purified?"

 

You can do whatever your tradition thinks would be helpful to "purify the mind". Your tradition has to have a lineage, a teacher and texts that would help you to understand that.

 

But Neidan doesn't "purify the mind". The mind (shishen) is not an object of transformation :-) So Neidan doesn't see any point "to sit while the mind is purified".... Sitting work (not "meditation") is used when there is no mind.

 

I would agree that there are practices which are for training, and then there is when the light is turned on and something else is happening, which I think was expressed in my first post a few pages ago. Once that light is turned on, I can see why one would say "it's not by your methods that a b and c." Once you connect to the Source, the methods are forgotten.

 

What Daoist Chinese word you can suggest for "connect to the Source"?

 

I'm getting the impression that people are getting hung up on isolated quotations about methods, perhaps without fully understanding them. And also, it would seem for as many times as I've read "the method is not written," I've read "the truth is only written in secret codes, but out of compassion for humanity I will tell you what it means and the way to get there."

 

You're free to read the most comfortable way. But the texts were written or for students, who received the methods directly from their teachers, or for those who is constantly looking to learn directly from a teacher. So the texts speak a lot about principles and achievements, but they don't disclosure methods. Neidan's compassion is to teach people in person, and make texts that help people to find a school and a teacher.

 

At this point, I still don't know that the people we're talking to have enough background knowledge to say what they're saying, even though they might otherwise be getting a far better education on the matter than, well, me at least...

 

Nobody will reveal your doubts here.

 

People from different schools are giving you some advices here, but all the rest you have to do by yourself. In Neidan the reading of the texts is necessary, but to find a teacher is much more important.

[effilang]

I think it's great that there are many of us here sharing their experiences and understandings of what they have learned throughout their lives. At the very least, if nothing else is grasped of it, it is amusing and enjoyable.

 

It's also inevitable that our ideas will sooner or later find a point of friction between us; and this too is ok, amusing and sometimes educational.

 

What I really have a hard time accepting is that as soon as someone puts a few sentences in some quotes and slaps a name on the back of it, nobody dares question it, hypnotized by the lore of the ancient.

 

Some people's attitudes on here are leaning towards an almost religious type of book worshiping as opposed to adopting the very attitude that brought about all these wonderful discoveries; the attitude of the adventurer, such as were the inquisitive ancient Taoists of the past, the scientist of antiquity.

 

How certain are you of everything written in books or even of that spoken by other people?

 

How many here have actually become Taoist immortals? What percentage of the path are we really qualified to preach to others that is born of our own direct experience and accomplishment of it, and what part is of the written and spoken experiences of other people, be it your teacher or the practitioners of the past?

 

Are our beliefs based on our experiences of books and the experiences of others or of our own personal experiences; and if they are based of your own experiences, are you certain that every persons' body and mind experiences the same thing in exactly the same way, enough that you can categorically exclude or include others if they don't correspond to your said experiences?

 

We all choose to believe what we want to believe, what is convenient to believe, but most importantly what we have been taught to believe; regardless of whether we are taught by books or by other people.

 

Any person can be made to believe a truth if they are conditioned long enough, anyone.

 

I have never been a person whom believes in one thing and clings to it.

 

Before I was initiated, I did not believe in the claims of Xiao Yao Pai, but I did the only thing a curious person could and explored them so I could verify it's claims for myself.

 

If another system came along today and made great claims, I would be just as curious and skeptical, but more than happy to explore. After all, how can you truly know something, if you don't go and find out? How can you judge it, if not yet again from the experience of others? You MUST have direct experience.

 

This is my opinion only, of course, but I believe that the mind of a true Taoist practitioner should be open and not rigid; fixed or married to any one belief.

 

Even if that very belief was later verified through personal experience and achievements of the very results held by those beliefs were made; those are still YOUR experiences and you shouldn't be too sure that others will experience the discovery of those truths in the same way, even if they are of one and the same origin. This is why we have different schools, different methods, different systems and different principles, but if they are authentic, they will lead to the same destination.

There is a funny saying; but aptly true:

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.

Edited August 6, 2014 by effilang

[opendao]

It's still a question about a method, and you didn't seem to feel safe sharing the instruction on the method, so it's hard, at least for me, to really understand your question.

 

But it sounds like a question about non-doing, which is the cultivation of xing once the ming is complete.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, Pregadio:

 

 

I feel I've experienced some of what this refers to, but not enough to feel comfortable commenting. If some others are fully comfortable in their experience of these teachings, I too would be welcoming of their compassionate guidance.

 

Thanks, I reposted this quote to another thread, I think it as more sense there then here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/34438-wu-wei-non-doing-meditation-suggested-in-ttc-query/?p=570090

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You can do whatever your tradition thinks would be helpful to "purify the mind". Your tradition has to have a lineage, a teacher and texts that would help you to understand that.

 

But Neidan doesn't "purify the mind". The mind (shishen) is not an object of transformation :-) So Neidan doesn't see any point "to sit while the mind is purified".... Sitting work (not "meditation") is used when there is no mind.

Well with such a literalist way of understanding these words, I'm not surprised you find the texts misleading.

 

"Purify the mind of the mind" might have been a better way to explain, but you'd probably prefer I said "but there's no mind to purify, yadayadayada." When you have a limited terminological understanding of these terms, they will seem, naturally, limited and incorrect.

 

What Daoist Chinese word you can suggest for "connect to the Source"?

 

Don't worry about it, I'm sure it won't be the one in your cue cards.

 

 

I fully respect the fact that you have found a teacher, and fairly confident that his lineage history is true. But I'm not getting a sense of broad understanding from yourself, at least in your critique/understanding of my own offerings, and so it's difficult for me to take what you say as "gospel" versus just another opinion based on an undetermined amount of understanding beyond what, for all I know, might just be dogma kool aid handed out at the meet and greet (which might last indefinitely).

 

I know there are paths which one likely won't succeed on without a guide who's been there before, but I don't think all the maps that were drawn (the texts) are incomprehensible, nor unusable, nor made to be so for everyone who's not initiated.

 

Either way, I know millions of people throughout history with four-fold the dedication I have to it were not fulfilled in their pursuits, so I'm happy to settle down on the paths to enjoy the view, and maybe even catch wind of the summit dweller's songs from time to time....

[opendao]

What I really have a hard time accepting is that as soon as someone puts a few sentences in some quotes and slaps a name on the back of it, nobody dares question it, hypnotized by the lore of the ancient.

 

Sorry, but how you can know anything about "the lore of the ancient"? From Mantak Chia's books?