Hou Tian vs Xian Tian & Xiao Yao Pai

[effilang]

Sorry, but how you can know anything about "the lore of the ancient"? From Mantak Chia's books?

 

Looks like you've read them to be able to qualify their content, or are you just on your typical run of prejudiced suppositions

[effilang]

Sitting work (not "meditation") is used when there is no mind.

 

You read too many books and cling to too many words and meanings...

[opendao]

"Purify the mind of the mind" might have been a better way to explain, but you'd probably prefer I said "but there's no mind to purify, yadayadayada." When you have a limited terminological understanding of these terms, they will seem, naturally, limited and incorrect.

 

Maybe it's a surprise for you but terminology in any science is very precise and limited.

Because if it's broad then we start to see new-ageish approach where every word can mean anything... It's just a chaos.

 

You use a term "purifying mind". It has no sense in Neidan, because mind = Shishen strictly there. So your initial question has no big sense, that's all I said to you...

 

That's why I asked you to return to Chinese terms. Even if we don't understand them fully, it'll give a better result for our understanding then to use vague terms like "mind" or "return to the source".

 

Looks like you've read them to be able to qualify their content, or are you just on your typical run of prejudiced suppositions

 

No, I can't read all Mantak's books :-\ It's a torture.

 

For me it's enough to read a few and know his lineage (an absence of any lineage to be precise).

Same for XYP, it's enough to know the lineage of your GM and basic concepts.

 

And I would better stay on my "prejudices suppositions" then to follow systems that have no any relation to Neidan nor by the lineage, nor by core concepts.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In any case opendao, thank you for bringing your perspective here. It appears we won't be communicating in mutually understood terms, but I appreciate your resolve to preserve true teachings.

[Suliman]

 

Hou Tian and Xian Tian are very important and ancient principles of Dao. But all classic books teach us that the transformation to Yang Shen is possible ONLY through refining 3 pre-Heaven (xiantian) treasures. And yes, the order has to be Jing - Qi - Shen, it's not like Lego bricks

Just curious, if in your school people learn directly from Shen Xian Teacher (who knows all such things for sure and directly, just because of his/her status), why the theory is different?

very valid point

Immortal also comes to ones house to teach,thats really convenient .

liu Yi ming had to cultivate filial piety and have extreme virtue and then he met his true teacher after looking for 13 years,and then met immortal, but one can have one come to the house,really interesting. Sorry i cant help being sarcastic,im open minded it still could happen but u know weird how in the past students seek Masters. Now masters come to the house

[oraoraora]

You guys all have such a wealth of knowledge about cultivation that it amazes me. I knew about qigong for a long time but have never studied the inner workings. I bought the book Taoist Yoga but have only read 20 pages, lol, so i can't even discern if what people are saying are in line with proper neidan teachings or just quotes out of context. But i have met several qigong masters and yogis and add my friend's experiences as well, it seems that although many are practicing some tradition and even those who are able to heal any disease and do proper chi emmissions repeatedly show no signs of inner cultivation. Though I have met those who do seem to be on the path to realization as their actions reflect their state of consciousness, many are still merely starting on the path no matter how long they have been walking.

 

My own understanding of taoist alchemy is very limited as all i know is jing to chi to shen, lol. Anything else really goes over my head at this point. For me, ok, for me (bruce lee ), i believe that no matter what tradition or style you follow, what step you are at in cultivation, that there should be a change in consciousness which in turn creates a change in your daily actions and interactions with those around you. Rather than becomming defensive and aggresive when met with opposition, effort should be put in to seek understanding. There are no concrete signs to measuring how far you are in "spiritual evolution," but a yogi once said that if anything, ask yourself if your desires have lessened. Are you content and at peace with yourself? Not needing any justification and validation from others, comfortable with your own beliefs. Or do you seek solace in outward satisfication, through justification of oneself through others or material sources? Forcing others to accept your way is comming from a place of fear and insecurity. At the end of the day, the best method and practice for each person is whatever allows you to change from the conditioned ignorant state we have all been brought up in, to a state of ever increasing understanding in your own self and of others.

 

I personally have immersed myself in the yogic tradition of self exploration and understanding and have learned enough, even at an elementary level, to be able to explore my actions and thoughts and try and find the root of them rather than be a captive of them. Though i still act on a mind level, rather than a heart level, i still try my best to understand where myself and others are comming from to avoid clashing and its something i have to remind myself everyday to do.

 

And while i've learned a lot in right action and thought, i have always been interested in energetic cultivation that taoism seems to hold. There are many energetic practices such as kriya yoga, qigong, shamanic traditions and others, but i have not been lucky enough to meet a tradition/master in which i am able to put my faith in for that teaching. But xiao yao pai really seems to be some kind of golden ticket if you can truely have some higher being guide you personally in your practice while showing actual results. I'll be attending the initiation event in London and after plan to do intensive training with that method and hopefully xiao yao pai turns out to be everything it purports to be And if people need more validation i'll definately try to post my experiences with it (unless there is reason not to). Though when ill be able to have any tangable phenomenon to tell you guys about, i cant say for sure lol. Hopefully ive got some of that good karma behind me that will make me one of those quick producers lol.

[Desmonddf]

On 11/10/2013 at 6:33 AM, effilang said:

 

 

 

 

First of all, i'm very sorry for reviving this old thread. It's just that it suddenly appeared when i was researching about Hou Tian and Xian Tian (in another context), and it made me very interested.

 

I have a few questions, and ask that mr.effilang answers then, if possible. If not, than sorry for bothering you!

 

Spoiler

Man (Ren / 人) - Is situated between heaven and earth. As such, at birth we have the maximum potential to cultivate either in favor of Earth or in favor of Heaven; by refining our 3 bodies (physical, energy, spirit) to become either more Yin or more Yang.

 

A question i have, as an acupuncturist:

 

What is it meant to become more Yin or more Yang ?

 

As much as my poor understanting is concerned, you could very well freeze yourself or lit yourself on fire for those purposes, haha.

 

No offense meant.

 

I guess the right question would be : What exactly is becoming more Yin ? And what exactly is becoming more Yang?

 

 

Spoiler

We are equipped with a refined spiritual essence which allows us through the right practice methods to bring our 3 bodies into unified perfection and enable our return to the primordial Tao of origination.

 

What is the "tao of origination" ?

 

I do understand that "the dao that can be named isn't the real dao", and that we have at least 2 types of Dao - one which is a very abstract concept, and one which is beyond conceptuation.

 

That is to say, one which is almost impossible to grasp mentaly, which to whom we own the very possibility of talking about "dao" here, and one which is indeed impossible to grasp.

 

Are we talking about this?

 

Also, why would we "return" to such thing ?

I have found the concept of "returning to the source" in many esoteric schools, but it never appealed to me on a level of "this is what i want!". Instead, i'm more of a transcendentalist - i wish to be able to freely travel between the beyond-mind and the mind. To exist simultaneously on the origin and on the moment.

 

Does it make sense, or "returning" is the only right thing to do?

 

(I mean,  i came all the way down here, why should i give up on this just to return home empty-handed?)
 

Spoiler

A completely Yin body is dead, begins to return to the earth through decomposition and emits a strong Yin energy. Hence our UTUT mantra used for repelling the Yin energy of any dead bodies in our vicinity.

A completely Yang body is the peak of life and can be prepared to ascend into heaven as an immortal. It emits strong Yang energy.

In esoteric Taoism our aim is to cultivate our 3 bodies by sublimating all their Yin aspects into complete Yang radiance.

 

 

 

This is something which just makes my head hurts.

 

The concept of a "body" itself is Yin. In order to have a massive, extremely sturdy and powerfull body, one would have to have a body which is full of Yin - massive bones, for isntance.

 

It always seems like Daoism is looking at Yin with unjust contempt. Isn't the balance between Yin and Yang the source of life, instead of the presence of more yang?

At least in TCM, excess of yang will give you strong fever and kill you way faster than a depletion of yang (fake cold)!

 

As a TCM practioneer, i see yin as important and necessary as yang. If you want a long life, you must have just as much yin as you have yang!

 

I mean, of course, a body brimming in vitality is yang when compared to a dead body. But the dead body is in an imbalance. It's not that the peak-of-life body has more yang, it's that it has enough yang to balance its yin!

 

Is this just me being picky or something?... Anyway...

 

In cultivation, shouldn't one increase it's affinity with both yin and yang in order to broaden their existance and eventually reach beyond not only "ascension" but also "descension" ?

 

Being able to ascend to the heavens is marvelous. Becoming trapped there, unnable to come down, or remain forever unable to reach the underworld, by its time, seems more like a limitation than a blessing.

 

Shouldn't one cultivate the ability to "ascend" and also the one to "descend" in order to achieve beyond immortality, to the realm of transcendence?

 

Spoiler

Thus, Jing can be accumulated and through meditative practices sublimated into Qi by raising it's vibration. Further more, through refinement Qi can be transmuted into Shen.

 

In TCM we talk about post-natal Jing being accumulated through properly living - eating, sleeping, working, playing...

 

How can meditation by itself accumulate Jing ?

 

I do know that qi can be absorbed through some visualization exercises and energetic absorbtion practices. And i do know that our bodies naturaly transform Ying Qi in Post-Natal Jing after it goes through the blood and meridians - then storing it at the eight extraordinary vessels.

 

Is that the kind of process that's being hinted at here?

 

Absorbing Qi directly from the environment, then adding it to ones' blood and letting it accumulate as post-natal Jing?

 

If so, how can we stop the consumption of Yuan Qi from the Kidney (which is used to turn external qi into Zheng Qi), if we are still using the regular nutrition channels?

 

Unless what's being hinted here is that one must use it's Shen to refine the external energy by itself, avoiding the use of Yuan Qi by directly transmutating the external qi?

 

Spoiler

However there is a reverse process in which Shen can be stepped down to generate Qi and Qi can be transmuted into Jing.

 

I do know that Ying Qi becomes post-natal Jing. However, that's only after going through multiple transformations in the body, that is, after moving the yin (blood, organs, etc) and being transformed by the yang (emotions).

That process hints at the Xian Tian being a process where some kind of energy (like the Ying Qi) first becomes densified and polluted to the extreme (by going through the Bones, Organs and Blood) and then being heated and purified also to the extreme (by going through the Meridians, Tendons and Souls). This way, the impurities absorbed through the "meddling with the impure (yin)" are then refined and become harmonious, naturally turning into a physical treasure - Post-Natal Jing, which is dense as the impure blood and organs, but pure and precious.

Is the transformation of Shen into Qi based on this same principle ? (Directing Shen to the densest parts of the souls, that is, starting with the Po, and then circulating it through all other souls and finally by the Ba Hui and other spiritual doors in the body, so allowing for the impurities it absorbed in the souls to be purified?).
 

Spoiler

The Hou Tian Shu school of Taoism believes that the strength of our vitality and the relative Yin/Yang nature of the body can be measured in a value of 64 points accumulated every 32 months. Thus a toddler aged 2 years and 6 months would have developed one unit of the positive Yang principle.

When it is 16 years of age (192 months), it would have developed 6 units of the positive Yang principle and have all together 384 points accumulated) (64 x 6 = 384).

 

 

This so called Yang Principle doesn't seem to steem from the pre-natal Jing, then. Instead, it seems to say that one is in perpetual deficience of yang in the body, except at the exact age of 16 years old.

 

However, how to understand that at the light of so many who don't have yang deficiency but, rather, yin deficiency ?

Some even have it from birth, due to the pre-natal Jing not being that good.

 

Spoiler

This poem refers to the 5 senses, through which it is believed the vitality leaks out once the spirit engages with the pleasure of the sense.

 

 

That's ok for the western senses, but the 5 senses we talk about in TCM don't include touch, however, i have been taught that the 5 senses in TCM don't include touch.

They are Smell, Speech, Sight, Hearing and Taste.

Were did touch come from?

 

 

Spoiler

Thus, onwards from the 16th year, 6 units of vitality and 384 points, a new negative Yin principle will develop every 96 months, in such a way that at 24 years of age another negative Yin unit of principle develops and through continuous unregulated leakage of vitality by the senses, the Yin principle will continue to accumulate, therefore:

The aging process in TCM is explained by the loss of pre-natal Jing. What is this "negative yin principle" which seems to be coming from the outside ?

 

 

Spoiler

Of all these one method was most effective: sexual celibacy as the most amount of vitality was lost during sexual ejaculation (men) and menstruation (women). Hence practices leading to their cessation such as "Slaying The White Tiger and Beheading The Red Dragon" were created.

 

I'd like to point that, as an acupuncturist, this is one of the bigger points of frustration i have with most neigong systems.

 

From what i have seen, sexual celibacy in men tend to generate heat-phleugm (or even heat-mucosity) symdroms. As for stopping menstruation, i do not know the technique, but it seems fishy to me.

 

Do you know any works on the medicinal aspects of semen retention and cutting off someones' period? The esoteric works may praise it, but i sincerely don't see how to conciliate the medicinal view on it with the esoteric view.

 

 

Spoiler

Whatever the issue is, whether of the physical, energetic or spirit/mind body, your Fu Fa Shen will approach your refinement through divine wisdom.

 

This is the main point where your text got me hooked up. As i said, i'm a medium. I have contact with spirits in an almost daily basis.

 

Now, there's a spirit which is near me and seems to have a master-disciple relation with me. My religion practices a kind of "willing possession" mediunic frame, in which we concede our bodies to the spirits to work with. One of the main rules is that the possession must be in accordance to the mediuns' will, and anything out of it is met with quite a punch to the spiritual face

 

(small note : spirits do have a really hard time to possess a medium which is unwilling. The spirit just have a lot of strenght over its own body when it has one. Also, spirits are only rarely able to interact with those outside of their emotional range. So, a spirit of great compassion requires that you are able to at least touch the lower boundaries of its compassion to be able to possess your body).

That said, my wife is also a medium, and this spirit has possessed her a few times - in which it has treated me with TCM, including tui-na, acupuncture, moxa and cupping.

The effects were wonderful, and this spirit has also given me pointers on the Dao and said that it was willing to guide me on qigong as long as i became able to correctly interact with him. Is this what you guys do? Or is it something else?

 

[Demetrios]

Desmonddf, which religion practices do you follow?

[Desmonddf]

16 hours ago, Demetrios said:

Desmonddf, which religion practices do you follow?

 

It's called "Umbanda". Togheter with "Espiritismo" it forms the basis of necromantic (or spiritists) religions on Brazil.

 

Both are de-centralized religions (obviously, since it's based on contact with the dead and giving more face to them then to earth and earthly leaders) with non-canonical (obviously, since it's decentralized) myths and origin stories. In the end, the real deal with both isn't to explain nature or the formation of the world, but rather to give people hands-on experience with some things - like the spirits of the dead, wisdom and esoteric knowledge (the last is a little rare... people have to be engaged on actively learning from the spirits and ask them for knowledge in order to receive most of it).

 

You can see a bit of it here :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbhhKneTor0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrydSkQril0
 

My own temple is called Fraternidade Kayman. We are of an offshot umbanda tradition, called Umbandaime Cristão da Nova Era. This is a mixed tradition, based mostly on what the spirit-in-chief of the house, Pai João, managed to accomodate on his own practices and spirituality.

 

The basics lean heavily on Umbanda, since that was the very beginning of the temple. However, there are oriental elements, as well as maçonic (we do have a few maçons in the temples' staff, and they are more than happy to share some stuff) and so on.

 

Probably the most controversial aspect of the temple, however, is the use of the enteogen Santo Daime. It's an ayahuasca brew made following the recipe and ritual of a century-old ayuasca tradition and church from Brazil (and the only enteogen which is allowed by law to be used), the Santo Daime.

 

Not everyone uses it, however, and the use is not mandatory. I have used it a few times, but i haven't done it on thursdays (the umbanda practice) for a couple of years already.

 

This video despicts the last thursday of 2016, which was an Umbanda session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfK2q3NOD_M

 

[Demetrios]

Thank you Desmonddf, for this complete answer.