Can anyone see the Wu-Wei yet?

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[zerostao]

 

Ah, okay, then where is the name of Tao came from. Did you know Tao before you read the TTC....??? Did you discover Tao from Nature....???

chidragon, i see your points, i agree with you with the idea that Lao Tzu indeed wrote the TTC himself, i look at the TTC as Lao Tzu's thesis regarding his observations and understandings of nature's realities. the TTC is a superlative thesis. this is why it resonates with so many of us. even, if each of us may derive of the TTC's wisdom, clarity, and penetrating insights, thru our own unique subjective perspective. TTC is not a document that can be viewed objectively.

once Lao Tzu handed over the TTC, he departed into nature, no?

once Lao Tzu handed over the TTC, he himself became removed from it.

it then, became the viewer/reader/studier's TTC

it is us that now give the TTC its meaning and not Lao Tzu

like brian says , it is a reflection

also there are ancient Native American Indian ideas that sound completely Tao, you are correct in that they did not name it Tao.

Tao is just a symbolic name, language itself is symbols, arbitrary and abstract and highly subjective

 

to answer your question did i discover Tao thru nature?

i have often and still do, it never stagnates and cannot be contained or confined in any one book,

i experience Tao and it doesnt have to be out in the outer realms of wilderness,

on campus yesterday during a gathering in the plaza, i could see wu wei

i really dont read the TTC anymore, it is a remarkable document/thesis

maybe i havnt read the TTC in many many moons but right now chapter 38 is on my mind

wu wei is an embodiment

[ChiDragon]

1. TTC is not a document that can be viewed objectively.

 

2. once Lao Tzu handed over the TTC, he departed into nature, no?

once Lao Tzu handed over the TTC, he himself became removed from it.

it then, became the viewer/reader/studier's TTC

it is us that now give the TTC its meaning and not Lao Tzu

like brian says , it is a reflection

 

3. also there are ancient Native American Indian ideas that sound completely Tao, you are correct in that they did not name it Tao.

Tao is just a symbolic name, language itself is symbols, arbitrary and abstract and highly subjective

 

1. It can be objective but all depends on the readers. I see that you are one that is not willing to.

 

2. I see that they are only your perspective. Isn't reflection means the revelation of one's idea. An original idea can be written down in a language. However, interpretation can be done in one or two ways, may be three but not more than that. Misinterpretation may be caused by many factors. Even native speakers with different education levels do misinterpret the TTC quite often. I can see that there are thousand translations with lots of errors were done due to a language barrier and cultural differences.

 

You have mentioned "a language is highly subjective", it is because people wanted to interpret the TTC in their favor. I had been doing it objectively by making correction as I went along. The more I study the TTC, the more I have discovered how less that I knew about the TTC. I had diminished some of my misconceptions about the context in the TTC on a daily basis as I go. Hopefully, I will narrow it down to just one final exoteric interpretation.

 

In regards to "Wu Wei", it was said to be a term that was patented for Lao Tze by the native scholars. If we leave it up to the individuals who interpret it as "non-doing", then we can remove Lao Tze from it. However, in order to get the true meaning of Wu Wei, then we must replace Lao Tze back in the TTC. His definition of Wu Wei is "do nothing adversely". One might say, Wu Wei does not have the character for "adversely" in the terms. Hey, It was understood; and that is one of the cultural inheritance in reading a Chinese classic.

 

Edited October 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

i do not consider wu wei to be 'non-doing' believe me a plaza full of college students, they were not all 'non-doing'

 

"Hopefully, I will narrow it down to just one final exoteric interpretation."

that is highly ambitious of you to reach for the stars in such a way, but this way is as illusury as it is elusive and not acheivable.

 

" I see that they are only your perspective"

yes, and however you feel, you are using your own perspective as well.

 

"I had diminished some of my misconceptions about the context in the TTC on a daily basis as I go."

this is an illustration of your subjectivity and much of your posts suggests this.

 

any human language is symbol and not the original, it is open to interpretation, it is arbitrary and subject to subjectivity.

the only true exact language is spoken only by nature, this is why i say the Tao gets its principles from nature,

or we could also say that nature gets its principles from Tao

 

"Isn't reflection means"

maybe brian , you , and me each have a slightly different perspective on what this word is trying to say?

again, this is illustrating subjectivity.

 

you are taking a very academic scholarly approach to TTC. this is fine and useful on many levels but it still has its limits.

do you really think that you can know exactly what Lao Tzu was thinking in each of those chapters?

[9th]

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name..."

 

Ch. 1

[Brian]

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name..."

 

Ch. 1

This was my point, too, 9th -- the TTC starts off with a warning against precisely what is being attempted here!

[ChiDragon]

do you really think that you can know exactly what Lao Tzu was thinking in each of those chapters?

 

 

Yes, the chapters do not stand alone but they link to each other. It is just like a jig puzzle. One can link the thoughts from chapter to chapter to reach a logical conclusion. The chapters do substantiate each other if we look close enough; provide that if and only if the definitions of the terms were interpreted and defined with consistency.

Edited October 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[9th]

Words of truth are not pleasing.
Pleasing words are not truthful.
The wise one does not argue.
He who argues is not wise.
A wise man of Tao knows the subtle truth,
And may not be learned.
A learned person is knowledgeable but may not know the subtle truth of Tao.

 

Ch. 81

[ChiDragon]

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name..."

 

Ch. 1

 

That was only a warning for the readers to be aware that Tao is eternal. However, we don't stop here. After that, in the following Chapters of the TTC, Lao Tze was telling you what Tao is. Don't you think those chapters had not spoken about Tao.....???? Not spoken of doesn't mean to shut up but one still can be spoken about it. Even one has spoken about Tao, does it make Tao not eternal....??? Aren't we talking about Tao now....??? Didn't Lao Tze name "Tao" Tao......??? Is Tao not eternal now because he named "Tao"......???

[ChiDragon]

Words of truth are not pleasing.

Pleasing words are not truthful.

 

 

Ch. 81

 

信言不美。

美言不信。

 

Trustworthy words are not beautiful.

Beautiful words are not trustworthy.

[Brian]

That was only a warning for the readers to be aware that Tao is eternal. However, we don't stop here. After that, in the following Chapters of the TTC, Lao Tze was telling you what Tao is. Don't you think those chapters had not spoken about Tao.....???? Not spoken of doesn't mean to shut up but one still can be spoken about it. Even one has spoken about Tao, does it make Tao not eternal....??? Aren't we talking about Tao now....??? Didn't Lao Tze name "Tao" Tao......??? Is Tao not eternal now because he named "Tao"......???

 

I respectfully suggest that you contemplate the significance of the message rather than focus on the definitions of the words themselves. The admonition in chapter one echoes through the guidance of many sages throughout history but is frequently intellectualized away...

[ChiDragon]

I respectfully suggest that you contemplate the significance of the message rather than focus on the definitions of the words themselves. The admonition in chapter one echoes through the guidance of many sages throughout history but is frequently intellectualized away...

 

I respectfully to remind you that the definitions do tell significant messages. Why should we focus our attention elsewhere to distract ourselves from the relevancy of the main subject....???

 

 

[Brian]

I think you miss the forest for the trees. I can relate because I also took pride for many years in technical prowess until I was shown the meaning of emptying one's cup.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

'Tao' is a word that points to clarity about existence.. stop looking at the finger, look to where it points..

 

Be well..

[ChiDragon]

Tao' is a word that points to clarity about existence.. stop looking at the finger, look to where it points..

 

We have to start looking at the finger to see where it is pointing. Points are meant to be connected for clarity, literally speaking.

Edited October 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

We have to start looking at the finger to see where it is pointing. Points are meant to be connected for clarity, literally speaking.

 

So, once you see that the finger is pointing, stop looking at the finger..

 

Clarity is not about 'connecting points'.. clarity is seeing what is actually happening so you can connect the points accurately..

 

'Connecting points' is a function of intelligence, having accurate/actual information as revealed by clarity ensures that 'connecting points' has a fair potential for indicating the most appropriate interaction with Life happening.. choice based on clarity is preferable to choice based on conditioned beliefs..

 

Be well..

[oildrops]

We need to a mass sovereign citizen movement. Once we are actually free then we can start "not doing" as we please. As it stands we have the bayonet at our backs and all we can do is march forward and pretend we don't see the horror show our race has become. One real act of civil disobedience and that bayonet goes straight through the heart.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

We need to a mass sovereign citizen movement. Once we are actually free then we can start "not doing" as we please. As it stands we have the bayonet at our backs and all we can do is march forward and pretend we don't see the horror show our race has become. One real act of civil disobedience and that bayonet goes straight through the heart.

 

Make the one act of civil disobedience count, if i must feel the bayonet let it make a difference.. fear is the enemy of liberation..

 

Be well..

[zerostao]

interesting isnt it? that a thread about seeing wu wei winds itself to civil disobedience.......

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

interesting isnt it? that a thread about seeing wu wei winds itself to civil disobedience.......

 

In the political climate today, civil disobedience IS wu wei..

 

Be well..

[soaring crane]

interesting isnt it? that a thread about seeing wu wei winds itself to civil disobedience.......

 

It's a process of elimination. To learn what a thing is, eliminate all that it isn't.

[Taomeow]

Returning to the OP:

 

have I seen wu wei yet?.. Everybody has seen wu wei. The classic description of the way it works is "doing nothing, accomplishing everything." One example of a phenomenon capable of this and available for direct and immediate experience is beauty. You've all seen beauty, right? It's doing nothing except for being itself. And it accomplishes everything, it has as much power as any action you could think of in some cases, and way more than that in others.

 

There's a story about a young Salvador Dali going to a museum and seeing a painting by El Greco for the first time in his life. He fainted on the spot. That's wu wei for you.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Taomeow

[soaring crane]

Returning to the OP:

 

have I seen wu wei yet?..

Is there a chance you didn't read the OP all the way through, TM? :-)

Edited October 19, 2013 by soaring crane

[zerostao]

Greetings..

 

 

In the political climate today, civil disobedience IS wu wei..

 

Be well..

certainly could be ziran as well. wu wei and ziran are always complimenting each other......

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

certainly could be ziran as well. wu wei and ziran are always complimenting each other......

LOL.. or Tzu-Jan..

 

Be well..