Can anyone see the Wu-Wei yet?

[zerostao]

ah ah

i just looked up tzujan

imagine that

i am a little slow sometimes lol

[ChiDragon]

Ziran = Tzujan = 自然

The only difference is the Pinyin or phonetic system was used. The modern official phonetic system is Pinyin. Thus Ziran is the closest to the phonetic for 自然.

自然: natural; spontaneous; Nature follows its course; it happens the way it suppose should be.

All these definitions apply to the philosophy of Wu Wei(無為).

Edited October 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Ziran = Tzujan = 自然

The only difference is the Pinyin or phonetic system was used. The modern official phonetic system is Pinyin. Thus Ziran is the closest to phonetic for 自然.

自然: natural; spontaneous; Nature follows its course; it happens the way it suppose should be.

All these definitions apply to the philosophy of Wu Wei(無為).

 

Now.. add 'Li',, TzuJanLi.. Li as in 'random order', like the grain in wood, the veins in leaves, or the changing patterns of clouds.. TzuJanLi.. a somewhat esoteric expression relating to Nature's Way..

 

Be well..

[ChiDragon]

TzuJanLi. = 自然力 = Natural power.....???

[Simple_Jack]

LOL.. no.. you are demonstrating your preference.. Do you suppose that understanding the principles of Tao is limited to a cultural origin?

 

What I meant was that a developmental division between a "religious" and "philosophical" forms of Daojia does not exist in China's history. Furthermore, "Dao", is a cultural term that is not limited [in meaning] to any particular Chinese school of thought.

 

What you put forth is a version of "Taoism" from the viewpoint of a modern Western secular/physicalist mindset.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[ChiDragon]

What I meant was that a developmental division between a "religious" and "philosophical" forms of Daojia does not exist in China's history. Furthermore, "Dao", is a cultural term that is not limited [in meaning] to any particular Chinese school of thought.

 

hmmmm.....

Daojia(道家) is automatically put one in a "philosophical" category; and

DaoJiao(道教) puts one in a "religious" category.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

 

What I meant was that a developmental division between a "religious" and "philosophical" forms of Daojia does not exist in China's history. Furthermore, "Dao", is a cultural term that is not limited [in meaning] to any particular Chinese school of thought.

 

What you put forth is a version of "Taoism" from the viewpoint of a modern Western secular/physicalist mindset.

 

What i put forth is my understanding.. it's not 'western or eastern'..

 

There is definitely a developmental division between religious and philosophical Taoism in China's history, you are assuming history begins with the 'religious' deviation.. 'Tao', as a philosophical awareness, predates the deviation into religious ritualistic practice by hundreds, possibly thousands, of years..

 

Be well..

[dawei]

There is definitely a developmental division between religious and philosophical Taoism in China's history, you are assuming history begins with the 'religious' deviation.. 'Tao', as a philosophical awareness, predates the deviation into religious ritualistic practice by hundreds, possibly thousands, of years..

 

And what predates an understanding of Tao as a philosophical awareness? I also see developmental divisions but they are branches of the same tree, evolving like:

 

Primitive Naturalism > Divining and Mythology > Shamanism/Spiritualism > Political Philosophy > Alchemy > Religion > Dark Philosophy > Modern Philosophy

 

----

 

Re: Dao is Eternal:

​Not sure one can hold that if Wu is supposedly Absolute nothingness as Dao cannot be a part of that. Dao conceptualizes once there is something rather than nothing.

 

Re: Daojiao is religious Daoism:

This is simply a perspective in time problem. Daojiao was actually coined before Daojia, and meant "The teachings of Dao" by ANYONE. Apparently first used by Mozi 墨子 (400 BC) Daojia was first used by Sima Tan 司馬談 (100 BC) in his 6-part classification of the thinkers of the day (a development really by his father). How they were used and adopted later is a matter of developmental issues but still branches from the same tree.

[Simple_Jack]

hmmmm.....

Daojia(道家) is automatically put one in a "philosophical" category; and

DaoJiao(道教) puts one in a "religious" category.

 

This is an obsolete model of the different historical developments of Daoism:

 

"For one thing, most scholars who have seriously studied Taoism, both in Asia and in the West, have finally abandoned the simplistic dichotomy of tao-chia and tao-chiao - "philosophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism." A few have begun offering new models for understanding the continuities among the ideas and practices presented in the data of Taoist texts of various periods....Today, none of these interpretive models seem sufficiently nuanced to ensure a full and accurate understanding of all the diverse but interrelated forms of Taoism that evolved over the long history of China...it should be noted in this connection, however, that Taoists have never made any distinctions of such kinds, and it is such very facts that challenge our hermeutical imagination." - pg. 2, Taoism: The Enduring Tradition by Russell Kirkland

 

As far as I know, Daojia/Daojiao and Lao-Zhuang are used interchangeably by the Chinese.

 

What i put forth is my understanding.. it's not 'western or eastern'..

 

There is definitely a developmental division between religious and philosophical Taoism in China's history, you are assuming history begins with the 'religious' deviation.. 'Tao', as a philosophical awareness, predates the deviation into religious ritualistic practice by hundreds, possibly thousands, of years..

 

There's no historical basis for any of these statements and shows a bias against certain mystical elements deemed as 'superstitious'. That's your prerogative, but this doesn't reflect accurately on the history of its development in its native country.

 

This is an excerpt of a book from an individual who was apparently a top scholar of her field:

 

"In China Taoism is one of the "three teachings" (along with Buddhism and Confucianism). It took shape only gradually, during a slow gestation that was actually a progressive integration of various ancient lines of thought. No precise data can be set for its birth, and the integration of outside elements into the religion has never ceased. If we add to this the enrichment of Taoism through-out its history with new revelations or new inspirations, we can see how open a religion it is, constantly progressing and evolving, and how difficult it is to not only date its first appearance but also to define its boundaries. Thus we can legitimately say, along with Livia Kohn, that "Taoism has never been a unified religion, and has constantly consisted of a combination of teachings based on a variety of original revelations". Thus it can be grasped only in its concrete manifestations, and it is meaningless to speak of Taoism as a whole. As I put this work together, however, I came to realize that if there is a single thread that runs through Taoism, it lies in its genealogy and in the cumulative and integrative process of its evolution." - pg. 1, Taoism: Growth of a Religion by Isabelle Robinet, trans. by Phyllis Brooks

[dawei]

As far as I know, Daojia/Daojiao and Lao-Zhuang are used interchangeably by the Chinese.

 

That is my experience asking monks at Daoist temples to explain the difference. The standard first response is that there is none. If pushed to make some explanation I usually got:

 

Daojiao - teachings of the Way

Daojia - followers [family] of the Way

 

To make a distinction seems a more academic effort to take snapshots of time and see the 'process of its evolution' but in the process it misses the 'cumulative and integrative' nature. I think Robinet said it well.

 

One can always catch this mistake when someone is trying to claim philosophical daoism precedes the religious and then doesn't consider what preceded all that.

[ChiDragon]

This is an obsolete model of the different historical developments of Daoism:

 

"For one thing, most scholars who have seriously studied Taoism, both in Asia and in the West, have finally abandoned the simplistic dichotomy of tao-chia and tao-chiao - "philosophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism." A few have begun offering new models for understanding the continuities among the ideas and practices presented in the data of Taoist texts of various periods....Today, none of these interpretive models seem sufficiently nuanced to ensure a full and accurate understanding of all the diverse but interrelated forms of Taoism that evolved over the long history of China...it should be noted in this connection, however, that Taoists have never made any distinctions of such kinds, and it is such very facts that challenge our hermeutical imagination." - pg. 2, Taoism: The Enduring Tradition by Russell Kirkland

 

As far as I know, Daojia/Daojiao and Lao-Zhuang are used interchangeably by the Chinese.

 

These notions are from a westerner listening to a westerner. How about a westerner listens to an easterner within one's own heritage/culture for a change....???

 

Westerners have no idea what and how the terms jia(家) and jiao(教) were used in the native language linguistically.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Simple_Jack]

There's no historical basis for any of these statements and shows a bias against certain mystical elements deemed as 'superstitious' and 'backwards'. That's your prerogative, but this doesn't reflect accurately on the history of its development in its native country.

 

Russell Kirkland actually addresses this in the beginning of his book Taoism: The Enduring Tradition

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9Op-hy1-5QC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false:

 

"The Chinese public today, like most in the outside world, generally know little about the Taoist tradition, though some are curious about whether it might have something to contribute to their lives. Meanwhile, many Westerners still imperialistically assume that the primary reason for them to study the religions of other cultures is to identify elements that can be appropriated into their own lives, or even new religious identities that can be assumed at will by "any of us." A proper understanding of Taoism requires one to recognize all such motivations, to ensure that they do not interfere with one's interpretive efforts, for instance by causing one to discount elements of Taoism that do not suit one's own taste or reinforce the biases of one's own age or culture."

 

These notions are from a westerner listening to a westerner. How about a westerner listens to an easterner.

 

Western academic institutions produce some of the best scholarly work on East Asian studies.

 

Post something from a reputable academic source from an easterner.

[ChiDragon]

Westerners have no idea what and how the terms jia(家) and jiao(教) were used in the native language linguistically.

 

Okay, convince me that you understand the usage of the above terms....!!!

Anyone will do...!!!

Edited October 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. Western academic institutions produce some of the best scholarly work on East Asian studies.

 

2. Post something from a reputable academic source from an easterner.

 

1. Do they ever make corrections from the mistakes and misconceptions.....???

 

2. That would be stated differently in a native tongue.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Simple_Jack]

Okay, convince me that you understand the usage of the above terms....!!!

Anyone will do...!!!

 

I didn't pretend that I did. Could you tell me the historical usage of those terms?

 

 

Do they ever make corrections from the mistakes and misconceptions.....???

 

It's a continual process.

[ChiDragon]

I didn't pretend that I did. Could you tell me the historical usage of those terms?

 

Gladly, I have done that once before but not many paid much attention to it.

 

jia(家): home; -ist

 

This character used by it self means "home" . If it was compound with other characters may mean something else. For example,

 

1. 我家: my home

2. 我家人: my family

3. 科學家: scientist

4. 音樂家: musician

5. 心理學家: psychiatrist

6. 道家(Daojia): those scholars who study the philosophies of Lao Tze and Zhuang Tze.

 

 

Note: A 道家(Daojia) is not necessarily believe in the Taoist religions.

 

 

 

jiao(教) ; to teach; a suffix was used at the end of a religious sect.

Examples:

1. 教書(teach books): to teach as a teacher in school.

2. 基督教: Christianity

3. 佛教: Buddhism

4. 道教(Daojiao) is definitely an indication of the Taoist religion.

 

Taoism may not be used here for the Taoist religion, as in Buddhism, because there is an distinction between 道教(Daojiao) and Taojia(道家).

 

 

It's a continual process.

It seems more effort is needed.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Simple_Jack]

Gladly, I have done that once before but not many paid much attention to it.

 

Ven. Huifeng of Fo Guang University [Taiwan] presented this to me:

 

The terms are:

道家 Dàojīa

道 dào = Way / Path / etc. But also related to principle, truth, etc.

家 jīa = family / house / lineage / etc. in this case, of a family of thought

The term is used to refer to the scholars of the broad Dao traditions, but this is practically all the early Chinese philosophers with the exception of Rujia (= Confucianism). More philosophical, the ideas and principles involved.

 

道教 Dàojiào

教 jiào = teach

Kind of more like "religion of Dao", includes practices, techniques, methods, etc. iconography, worship, offerings, etc.

 

老莊 Lăo-Zhuāng

老子 Lăozĭ = the wise sage Li Er, otherwise known as Laozi.

莊子 Zhuāngzĭ = the wise sage known as Zhuangzi.

These two, or rather, the two texts attributed to them, are known as Lao Zhuang. They are the heart of the Daojia, but less so of Daojiao.

 

While the above Daojia and Daojiao are kind of like "philosophical" and "religious" Daoism, the problem is that the texts of Lao and Zhuang are just Chinese thought, not specifically belonging to something called "Daoism" alone; and likewise many of the practices involved in Daojiao (eg. burning paper money on the auspicious dates) are just common Chinese ritual / folk / religious practices.

 

~~ Huifeng

 

 

It seems more effort is needed.

 

Basically, we're arguing for two competing scholarly agendas. Apparently, one has been widely deemed as outdated and abandoned in favor of a model that is more accurate of the developmental history of Daoism. For instance Robinet's stance on this was "...we shall often have to consider the question of the relationship between what are called "philosophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism"...We shall see again and again that this division has no significance. I share the view that this is a nonexistent problem arising from only an apparent difference, one that exists in all religions and mystical systems - the difference between self-discipline (techniques, training, etc.) and either the results of this discipline or the speculations that can accompany or crown it." [ch.1, pg.3]; while also distinguishing popular religion from Daoism.

[ChiDragon]

道教 Dàojiào

教 jiào = teach

Kind of more like "religion of Dao", includes practices, techniques, methods, etc. iconography, worship, offerings, etc.

 

IMO I think you need to look into more references. Now, I know why you were misled. It was because the way you interpret "道教(Dàojiào)" as "religion of Dao". This is not a proper way to interpret this term in the native language. However, you are still missing the point here. If you pay close attention to the examples of my illustration. You will see how 教 was used in the Chinese language.

 

The application of 教:

jiao(教) ; to teach; a suffix was used at the end of a religious sect.

Examples:

1. 教書(teach books): to teach as a teacher in school.

2. 基督教: Christianity

3. 佛教: Buddhism

4. 道教(Daojiao) is definitely an indication of the Taoist religion.

 

Taoism may not be used here for the Taoist religion, as in Buddhism, because there is an distinction between 道教(Daojiao) and Taojia(道家).

 

This was something missing in your conceptual imbalanced mind. It is very difficult to explain this in English if one already have some preconceived notion about the subject. It is hard to unlearn something that was already sat as concrete in once mind. If you continue to ignore the usage of these examples, then you will never master the Chinese language. If we continue with the conversation with further argument, then it would be a chicken talking to a duck.......

Edited October 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Simple_Jack]

IMO I think you need to look into more references. Now, I know why you were misled. It was because the way you interpret "道教(Dàojiào)" as "religion of Dao". This is not a proper way to interpret this term in the native language. However, you are still missing the point here. If you pay close attention to the examples of my illustration. You will see how 教 was used in the Chinese language.

 

The application of 教:

jiao(教) ; to teach; a suffix was used at the end of a religious sect.

Examples:

1. 教書(teach books): to teach as a teacher in school.

2. 基督教: Christianity

3. 佛教: Buddhism

4. 道教(Daojiao) is definitely an indication of the Taoist religion.

 

Taoism may not be used here for the Taoist religion, as in Buddhism, because there is an distinction between 道教(Daojiao) and Taojia(道家).

 

This was something missing in your conceptual balance mind. It is very difficult to explain this in English if one already have some preconceived notion about the subject. It is hard to unlearn something that was already sat as concrete in once mind. If you continue to ignore the usage of these examples, then you will never master the Chinese language. If we continue with the conversation with further argument, then it would be a chicken talking to a duck.......

 

Thanks for the help. I'll make sure to watch out for this in the future.