Immortality: Yin & Yang or Pure Yang ?!

[Wells]

There are methods and schools, mostly taoist, which claim that the state of immortality is defined as a state of pure yang. A human is both yin & yang and has to get rid of all yin or change it to yang to become an immortal. Taichi is taoist and incorporates only the absorption of yang chi (heaven chi), at least according to Chen Man Ching.

Gods, Buddhas and Immortals are considered as "heavenly" beings who are therefore pure yang.

 

Buddhist lineagues in China see yin chi as low or even dirty chi and as the chi of earth-bound gui (ghosts, devils).

 

Other schools and traditions like the Mo Pai teach the absorption of both yang chi from heaven and yin chi from earth and to fuse those together in the process of becoming immortal.

John Chang confirms yin chi as the medium to get access to the ghost world.

 

Who's right? What method is better to become an immortal?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Can't do alchemy with only half .

[Wells]

Can't do alchemy with only half .

 

Transforming yin to yang could be considered alchemy.

Like changing lead (yin) to gold (yang) or jing (yin) to shen (yang).

[BaguaKicksAss]

OK good point .

 

I was more thinking the mixing of opposites.... I still vote both though.

[bakeneko]

From what I remember from a certain book (I aknowledge there is a bit of controversy if all of it is correct), the goal in Mopai practice is still to sustain the yang qi in a way that it will not disperse upon physical death. The yang qi is the "security" to maintain ones personality beyond the death of the body. So while the practice also includes the intake of yin qi, it is not that contrary to other schools or the "general picture".

Edited October 11, 2013 by bakeneko

[BaguaKicksAss]

Would one want the personality or ego past death? Awareness perhaps, but taking the ego with you doesn't lead to very good things IMO.

[Wells]

From what I remember from a certain book (I aknowledge there is a bit of controversy if all of it is correct), the goal in Mopai practice is still to sustain the yang qi in a way that it will not disperse upon physical death. The yang qi is the "security" to maintain ones personality beyond the death of the body. So while the practice also includes the intake of yin qi, it is not that contrary to other schools or the "general picture".

 

Also, ghosts in pretty much all traditions are considered yin, earth-bound and as more subconscious "mechanical" beings without the ability to make decisions.

So even in Mo Pai, the yang chi is the key to keep your conscious personality after death.

 

An "awakened/enlightened" buddha as a being of "pure yang" (without yin) therefore could also fit Mo Pai theory.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Aetherous]

I think these terms are speaking of two different stages in Taoism. Merge yin and yang is one, then having a pure yang body is another. "Yang" in each of these stages is describing something different. If I had time to devote to this, I'd study this book.

[Wells]

I think these terms are speaking of two different stages in Taoism. Merge yin and yang is one, then having a pure yang body is another. "Yang" in each of these stages is describing something different. If I had time to devote to this, I'd study this book.

 

That's the big question.

The theory in Taoism that Immortals are seen as beings or pure yang maybe comes from the opinion that they are heavenly beings which live on the clouds in contrast to ghosts who live on or even in the earth.

I would like to hear from people who have deep knowledge of classic texts of Taoist Alchemy and the like:

Is according to old texts about taoist alchemy the absorption of yang/heaven/air chi and yin/earth chi necessary or only the absorption of yang/heaven/air chi?

I can only comment concerning the theory of the taoist taichi.

I want to quote a reliable classic taichi teacher: Cheng Man Ching

 

"According to Professor Cheng, there are three kinds of chi that gather in the tan tien. First is the breath, air, "the chi of heaven". Second is the chi that comes from the blood, the "chi that we get from our parents". Third is the "chi from the internal organs".

[...]

The chi of the air, the breath, is gathered with the heart/mind in the tan tien, where it is joined by the chi of the blood and internal organs. Then an alchemical process takes place. After a time of the chi being "cooked over the fire" of the heart/mind, it is transformed into a kind of steam which overflows the tan tien. This "steam" is the fourth kind of chi, the "spirit chi", which permeates the bones, fills the body and travels up the spine to the brain.

[...]

Finally, the chi travels up the spine to the brain, where it comes down as "the golden rain", enlightenment."

 

Cheng Man Ching quoted in "There are no secrets", pages 56 & 57

 

"Five thousand years ago when the Yellow Emporer said, 'Swallow the chi of heaven to reach the godhead', these were not empty words."

 

Cheng Man Ching quoted in "There are no secrets", page 98

 

All the way up to enlightenment with only absorbing yang chi from the air/heaven and without absorbing any yin chi from earth, at least according to taoist Taichi theory!

 

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So, what I wanted to say in post #7: According to Mo Pai theory, a Budda of "pure yang chi" could be considered as a being without a subconsciousness/yin chi part, a completely conscious and therefore "fully awakened"/enlightened being! With full knowledge and control over him/herself!

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[BaguaKicksAss]

Soooo what definition of immortality are we using?

[Wells]

Soooo what definition of immortality are we using?

 

The classic chinese definition: Beings like the classic 8 Immortals of chinese folklore of course!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals

 

 

 

According to another video (which I sadly don't find at the moment on youtube ) of that chinese buddhist teacher in the video in post #3, Buddhas & Immortals are both beings of pure yang.

The difference is that Buddhas are even more pure, haha!

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[gendao]

The chi of the air, the breath, is gathered with the heart/mind in the tan tien, where it is joined by the chi of the blood and internal organs. Then an alchemical process takes place. After a time of the chi being "cooked over the fire" of the heart/mind, it is transformed into a kind of steam which overflows the tan tien. This "steam" is the fourth kind of chi, the "spirit chi", which permeates the bones, fills the body and travels up the spine to the brain.

 

Finally, the chi travels up the spine to the brain, where it comes down as "the golden rain", enlightenment."

 

Cheng Man Ching quoted in "There are no secrets", pages 56 & 57

Very interesting quote..

The steamed qi is known as the "real" zhen qi.

Also called "Normal" Qi. Zong Qi is transformed into Zhen Qi with the help of Yuan Qi. Zhen Qi is the final stage in the transformation and refinement of Qi. It is the Qi that circulates in the channels and nourishes the organs.

There is a transition happening from the situation when the person trains "post-heaven Qi" to the situation when "pre-heaven Qi trains the person".

[Wells]

From my quote of Cheng Man Ching, I want to point out:

 

 

"This "steam" is the fourth kind of chi, the "spirit chi", which permeates the bones,

fills the body

and travels up the spine to the brain."

 

Cheng Man Ching quoted in "There are no secrets", pages 57

 

and further on the subject:

"It [the tan tien] is where the chi is gathered and nurtured, until it eventually overflows into body and bones: the body filling with "spirit" chi, becoming relatively impervious to blows and many illnesses, the bones becoming "hard as steel" [...]"

 

Cheng Man Ching quoted in "There are no secrets", pages 56

 

So according to Cheng Man Ching, it's not only possible to fill the small tantien with chi! After the tantien is filled up and the three chi's are FUSED to the strange "spirit" chi (shen?) through permanent practice, it overflows and the "spirit chi" "fills the body" also, which becomes "relatively impervious to blows and many illnesses".

 

So this spirit chi, alchemically produced in & overflowing from tantien through taichi practice doesn't leak out but in case it is produced enough through prolonged practice (and ongoing input of heaven chi) can fill up the whole body!

So the whole body can become a tantien or a store room filled up completely with "spirit chi"!

=>Level 72?

Or is "bottling" the complete body with "spirit chi" even the way to transform the body into pure energy and achieving the Rainbow Body?

I mean, what happens if you pump enough energy into an object out of matter? It transforms into energy too!

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[ChiDragon]

It has been known that the human world was considered to be "Yang, 陽間"; and the under world of the ghosts is considered to be "Yin, 陰間" or any spiritual figures are considered to be "Yin". By definition, an immortal is the spiritual soul which left a human body, therefore, an immortal is classified as "Yin".

Humans cook foods with fire(yang), that is why a living human being is considered to be Yang. However, the ghosts and immortals do not touch cooked human foods by fire, therefore, they are not considered to be Yang but Yin.

[Wells]

Humans cook foods with fire(yang), that is why a living human being is considered to be Yang. However, the ghosts and immortals do not touch cooked human foods by fire, therefore, they are not considered to be Yang but Yin.

 

That's overwhelming logic!!!

 

Lol, ok, different taoist schools surely had different opinions about what has to be considered yin or yang and why.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[BaguaKicksAss]

The classic chinese definition: Beings like the classic 8 Immortals of chinese folklore of course!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals

 

 

 

According to another video (which I sadly don't find at the moment on youtube ) of that chinese buddhist teacher in the video in post #3, Buddhas & Immortals are both beings of pure yang.

The difference is that Buddhas are even more pure, haha!

 

So physical immortality? Spirit body immortality? (I've seen both theories about this group of immortals) I'm guessing not fused with Dao completely immortality since you showed some folks with personalities (at least somewhat), shape and so forth.

[Wells]

So physical immortality? Spirit body immortality? (I've seen both theories about this group of immortals) I'm guessing not fused with Dao completely immortality since you showed some folks with personalities (at least somewhat), shape and so forth.

 

Lol! Let's go to the highest level of immortality in Taoism: Both!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAnpFHU87Og

„But the highest level some of those old masters achieved is what they called 'daytime ascending'.

They could raise their energy so high that they could dissolve even their bodies into pure energy and just vanish and turn into a 'saint'.

You can see this sort of event recorded in the old legends or notes of this sort of master turning up from time to time in the official records.“

~Waysun Liao, "Tao-The Way Of God"~

 

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OK, has someone else some interesting quotes to share as evidence if classic taoist systems with the goal of immortality used the absorption of only heaven chi or also earth chi in the process?

Or include the "getting rid of" yin / transformation of all yin to yang?

I would appreciate it!

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dorian Black

[BaguaKicksAss]

The Three Treasures of Man Ging, Qi, and Shen) are also connected with the Three Outer Forces or Powers known as Heaven, Earth, and Man. Jing (reproductive essence) is the most substantial and therefore the most Yin of the three, and it is closely linked with Earth Qi. In Medical Qigong practice and Daoist inner alchemy, the Earth energy is gathered in the Lower Dantian and is associated with heat. Qi is closely connected with the atmospheric energy (a blend of Heaven and Earth energy), is gathered into the Middle Dantian and is associated with vibration. Shen (Spirit) is the most insubstantial, and therefore, the most Yang of the three. It corresponds with Heaven Qi, is gathered in the Upper Dantian, and is associated with light. The Three Dantians are connected to each other through the Taiji Pole.

 

The ultimate goal of internal alchemy is immortality, a complete transformation of the body's Jing, Qi, and Shen. Jing, Qi, and Shen are the three

fundamental energies necessary for human life, and are collectively referred to as the "Three Treasures of Man." To accomplish this transformation, alchemists first gather and transform Jing into Qi in the Lower Dantian. They then gather and transform Qi into Shen in the Middle Dantian. Next, they transform Shen into Wuji (the absolute openness of infinite space) in the Upper Dantian. Finally, they merge Wuji into Dao (divine energy).

 

Pages 212 and 213 from JAJ's Chinese medical qigong therapy, vol. 1.

 

That's all I found on a very quick look through for immortality . Well I mean that doesn't go off into specific exercises or complex descriptions, or history (he really does go into the history and different thoughts about how to get there during different time periods in china, extremely well).

[Taomeow]

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Edited October 13, 2013 by Taomeow

[baiqi]

I read this topic with a lot of interest. Actually, I have also been wondering about this. Especially since I've read Liu Yiming's works (The Daoist Yijing in particular).

Liu says that you should "unite yin and yang" or "repell the yin (or earth energy) to get the pure yang (or heaven energy)".

 

He doesn't seem to see the contradiction here... or maybe he is talking about two different things. The question is: what?

[Jetsun]

As I understand it from a Fourth Way view rather than Taoist it is about Yang energy, in the sense you build up the momentum and unity while you are alive to continue after death of the body. A bit like a boat on a river if you build up enough power, sense of direction and lack of friction then boat will continue down the river for a time through momentum after the motor has given out.

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Thunder_Gooch]

There are methods and schools, mostly taoist, which claim that the state of immortality is defined as a state of pure yang. A human is both yin & yang and has to get rid of all yin or change it to yang to become an immortal. Taichi is taoist and incorporates only the absorption of yang chi (heaven chi), at least according to Chen Man Ching.

Gods, Buddhas and Immortals are considered as "heavenly" beings who are therefore pure yang.

 

Buddhist lineagues in China see yin chi as low or even dirty chi and as the chi of earth-bound gui (ghosts, devils).

 

Other schools and traditions like the Mo Pai teach the absorption of both yang chi from heaven and yin chi from earth and to fuse those together in the process of becoming immortal.

John Chang confirms yin chi as the medium to get access to the ghost world.

 

Who's right? What method is better to become an immortal?

 

As I understand it, yang chi is what animates our consciousness.

 

It is an active radiant energy, sunlight is a excellent example.

 

Unless contained by yin it scatters and radiates freely like sunlight as that is it's nature.

 

So assuming you were 100% yang 0% yin, at death there would be nothing to contain your yang energy, and it would scatter into the environment, or at least that is my understanding. This already happens but leaving behind a yin spirit, if there were no yin spirit then nothing would remain.

 

Your yin energy is your spirit itself, the core essence, it is a passive field type energy like gravity, and if dense and concentrated enough it can be impregnated with a great deal of yang energy.

 

100% yin beings no matter how developed, still have minds like the cold ashes of a burnt out fire, they are more like automatons, no concept of emotion, no volition.

Edited October 15, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Thunder_Gooch]

What happens to you when you take in a lot of solar energy?

 

 

The same thing that happens if you put a sunflower in a desert without any water.

 

Imbalance manifests as disease. People with excess yang might not be able to sleep, have elevated heart rate, body temperatures, mania, psychosis, etc. People with excess yin might experience, lethargy, depression, weakened immune systems, etc.

 

Equal amounts of both must be fused as one to progress.

Edited October 13, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy