Jesus a fictional character?

[Isimsiz Biri]

With all due respect, you're all approaching this issue from a wrong direction. You got stuck in this tar pit of a debate by jumping in without questioning its underlying precepts. What is history? Unless Protector shares his time machine with us, we'll have to keep defining the past as a compromise between the chroniclers from that period and the Powers That Be of today.

 

(Recall the riots and tensions that happen every few years in Asia when one side or another tries to redefine what happened during WW2.)

 

As soon as the last person who personally knew you dies, you too will become a fictional character - a sum total of stories told by your great-great-grandchildren, or biographers working with incomplete sources, or court transcripts, if you were one of the unlucky ones... The more time passes, the more your identity will be redefined, altered, reimagined. That is, of course, if you will be remembered at all.

 

George Washington wasn't a brave courageous hero his whole life. Abraham Lincoln wasn't a genius in all of his endeavors. Jesus Christ, whoever he was (or wasn't), was almost certainly not the same person described in the collection of mistranslated, edited and whitewashed tales known as the Bible. Why argue about the physical existence of someone whose philosophical legacy has been turned inside out and backwards?

Good post.

 

Just for the records, Jesus Christ was a Prophet of God. He was a man of compassion, actually he still is. I personally love and respect him. God bless him. Alwayson, please do not anwer this post. If you have anything to say, PM me. Let us keep this thread around its subject.

[Formless Tao]

Good post.Just for the records, Jesus Christ was a Prophet of God. He was a man of compassion, actually he still is. I personally love and respect him. God bless him. Alwayson, please do not anwer this post. If you have anything to say, PM me. Let us keep this thread around its subject.

Salam Isimsiz Biri, you have already stated before that 'Jesus Christ was a prophet of God'.

 

This is your opinion and cannot be proven for or against...

 

There is no point in further discussions on mere opinions as you are bound to get people who are going to disagree with you.

 

Unless of course you enjoy arguing with people for the fun of it.

 

Allahu Akbar

 

Salam

Edited October 14, 2013 by Formless Tao

[konchog uma]

I don't think an article is valid evidence for the argument against Christ.

 

It isn't. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that the reality or fictitious nature of Christ is a pointless question to address at all. However the articles mentioned, much like a search for gilgulim, will bring up interesting facts that as rational people it is in our interest to entertain with an openminded attitude of inquisitiveness and humility. To dismiss them because they don't accord with one's faith is simply ignorant (literal meaning, an attitude of ignoring) and fundamentalist. I asked not because I wanted to create a standoff, but because you don't seem like an ignorant fundamentalist, and i was interested in opening a dialogue on those issues. I personally don't think the bible is a valid evidence for the argument for Christ, and anyone who does start to study the facts surrounding Christianity will likely soon conclude that something very different from the consensus church story was happening. So there are big questions like that. I know that people who pray in full belief to Christ can heal illnesses and have miraculous happenings, but I am not convinced that that is not the power of the mind. Healing illnesses and miraculous happenings occur in Buddhism too, where there is no emphasis on that sort of Deity or its manifestations, just the power of the awakened mind. If there is really nothing to offer except faith, and no article will even suffice as worthwhile to support the point, we can drop the subject. I don't want to pester people about their religions.. I just have a lot of questions that i don't ask ordinary Christians.

[Nungali]

Salam Isimsiz Biri, you have already stated before that 'Jesus Christ was a prophet of God'.

 

This is your opinion and cannot be proven for or against...

 

There is no point in further discussions on mere opinions as you are bound to get people who are going to disagree with you.

 

 

 

I do not disagree with Isimsiz Biri in this matter. So he is not bound ... there ... that should set him free!

 

I release him from your binding spell!

[Apech]

It isn't. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that the reality or fictitious nature of Christ is a pointless question to address at all. However the articles mentioned, much like a search for gilgulim, will bring up interesting facts that as rational people it is in our interest to entertain with an openminded attitude of inquisitiveness and humility. To dismiss them because they don't accord with one's faith is simply ignorant (literal meaning, an attitude of ignoring) and fundamentalist. I asked not because I wanted to create a standoff, but because you don't seem like an ignorant fundamentalist, and i was interested in opening a dialogue on those issues. I personally don't think the bible is a valid evidence for the argument for Christ, and anyone who does start to study the facts surrounding Christianity will likely soon conclude that something very different from the consensus church story was happening. So there are big questions like that. I know that people who pray in full belief to Christ can heal illnesses and have miraculous happenings, but I am not convinced that that is not the power of the mind. Healing illnesses and miraculous happenings occur in Buddhism too, where there is no emphasis on that sort of Deity or its manifestations, just the power of the awakened mind. If there is really nothing to offer except faith, and no article will even suffice as worthwhile to support the point, we can drop the subject. I don't want to pester people about their religions.. I just have a lot of questions that i don't ask ordinary Christians.

 

I think one of the differences between Christianity and Buddhism is that the historicity of Buddha does not matter at all while the life of Christ is essential. Ironically there is more evidence that Buddha was a real human being than there is for Jesus. The dharma which is about disclosing reality would be unaffected if it turned out the the Buddha was a myth or a composite figure. However Christianity focusses on the 'proof' of God's intent through the ministry of Jesus.

 

The only exception to this is Christian Mysticism which frames the Christian revelation in a different way and focusses more on what works for the individual and not on belief.

[h.uriahr]

It isn't. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that the reality or fictitious nature of Christ is a pointless question to address at all. However the articles mentioned, much like a search for gilgulim, will bring up interesting facts that as rational people it is in our interest to entertain with an openminded attitude of inquisitiveness and humility. To dismiss them because they don't accord with one's faith is simply ignorant (literal meaning, an attitude of ignoring) and fundamentalist. I asked not because I wanted to create a standoff, but because you don't seem like an ignorant fundamentalist, and i was interested in opening a dialogue on those issues. I personally don't think the bible is a valid evidence for the argument for Christ, and anyone who does start to study the facts surrounding Christianity will likely soon conclude that something very different from the consensus church story was happening. So there are big questions like that. I know that people who pray in full belief to Christ can heal illnesses and have miraculous happenings, but I am not convinced that that is not the power of the mind. Healing illnesses and miraculous happenings occur in Buddhism too, where there is no emphasis on that sort of Deity or its manifestations, just the power of the awakened mind. If there is really nothing to offer except faith, and no article will even suffice as worthwhile to support the point, we can drop the subject. I don't want to pester people about their religions.. I just have a lot of questions that i don't ask ordinary Christians.

I agree that at least the New Testament isn't valid evidence. A download has to occur first.Dismissing certain facts is because of my very own amazing experiences. Those experiences feed the Fire that gives the Bible Life. Which brings me back around to the deceiver. Especially with the current timeline.I honestly have never seen any evidence against Christ that I would acknowledge as good. Even so, it's my Walk that keeps me goin. Not what others say.I'm open to Christian questions but I'm not a very typical Christian so I'm not sure my answers will be helpful but I'll try lol.

 

I looked up Biblical reincarnation but I find the evidence for it weak.No punch list for the Council at Nicea. No real scripture claim. Elijah the Prophet coming down as John the Baptist but the Bible says that each person shall see a bodily death. It was an interesting point of view anyhow.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[silent thunder]

This is interesting, isnt it.. Bertrand Russell states that Truth is veiled and distant.... and this seems to me to be correct. Yet the common perception of truth is as something completely mundane and palpable, requiring no effort to comprehend.. truth has been taken away and substitued with what is obvious to all looking with ordinary eyes, without anyone admitting this.

 

I have experienced this as well.

 

Truth is experiential; beyond the mundane.

Mundane is steeped/infused in duality and contradiction.

To take the mundane for truth is to miss the forest for the trees, for in that realm, any statement/observation creates its opposite in the moment of its being spoken or observed.

[SonOfTheGods]

This is the conundrum:

 

For a person such a christain, they must admit that, according to the prophet Isaiah, their good deeds are like filthy rags.

They must admit that without jesus' blood, they are pretty much garbage and damned to hell.

 

The flip side is that the qi gong and all internal alchemy preps the person with a godhood of their own.

 

The mystical ascent of self divinity.

 

Dichotomy.

 

 

The internal is greater than the external.

 

So according to abrahamic religion, you can qi gong till you are blue in the face, without some saviour, you are eternally damned to hell.

 

John Chang is a christain, but also is "SAID" to be enlightened.

 

How is that?

 

Any great chi master from thousands of years ago i.e., not a christain, is simply deluded by "satan" and is now in hell.

 

All the Tao Immortals, in hell.

 

So which is it?

 

Does enlightenment teach you that you still need a a human sacrifice?

[三江源]

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

Explained here how we can move outside of treating holy words as slogans -

 

 

 

Very nice thanks ... I wish I had more of that faithing ...

[Isimsiz Biri]

Salam Isimsiz Biri, you have already stated before that 'Jesus Christ was a prophet of God'.

This is your opinion and cannot be proven for or against...

There is no point in further discussions on mere opinions as you are bound to get people who are going to disagree with you.

Unless of course you enjoy arguing with people for the fun of it.q

Allahu Akbar

Salam

Alaykum Salam.

 

The Jesus Christ is a Prophet of God Almighty. This is not my opinion, this is the statement of Holy Quran. Every Muslim believes it. Other than this, this is all from my side.

[konchog uma]

I looked up Biblical reincarnation but I find the evidence for it weak. No punch list for the Council at Nicea. No real scripture claim. Elijah the Prophet coming down as John the Baptist but the Bible says that each person shall see a bodily death. It was an interesting point of view anyhow.

 

nonono there is no biblical reincarnation. Thats my point. It is taught in Jewish religion and mysticism (gilgulim) and was accepted by Christianity until the ecumenical council at Nicea in 325AD. At that point, they (bishops, cardinals, etc) changed the doctrine to suit their needs, and the bible accordingly reflects this. So there is no real scripture claim, while if you look up gilgulim you will find that it is part of Jewish thought, a "cycling of souls", a lack of eternalism and doctrine of cyclical change instead.

 

Thanks for looking into it tho.

[Creation]

was accepted by Christianity until the ecumenical council at Nicea in 325AD. At that point, they (bishops, cardinals, etc) changed the doctrine to suit their needs, and the bible accordingly reflects this

Not the Council of Nicea in 325. Emperor Justinian in 545. And he didn't change the Bible, but enforced one particular interpretation, seeing as the Bible doesn't explicitly say one way or another. Even Sweedenborg, who had visions of Christ explaining the afterlife to him, didn't teach reincarnation. An example of a Biblical argument against reincarnation comes from Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment". But all well researched Western accounts of reincarnation that I have seen state that after death there is a lengthy process of existing on the other side, beginning with a life review stage aka the judgement, before (potentially, if needed) coming back. This is consistent with the Bible as far I am concerned.

 

Anyway, regarding the original article, if the Gospel accounts are fictional it certainly was not Romans who composed them.

 

---

 

h.uriahr,

 

Your posts bring up the very interesting question of, "To what extent can personal mystical experience validate an entire worldview?" I have noticed your recent posts carry all the signs of an Evangelical worldview (things along the lines of the Bible is the only scripture that anyone ever needs, Satan is deceiving the world into not seeing the truth of Christianity, America has been overrun by the godless, other religions are inspired by demons, etc.) or something very close to it. I can't help but notice that Tibetan_Ice, for example, does not hold such a worldview even though he also has had personal experience of Christ and the Holy Spirit...

Edited October 14, 2013 by Creation

[silent thunder]

god: tao

christ: te

spirit: tai chi

 

experientially this works for me... no idea how real it is...

[konchog uma]

Not the Council of Nicea in 325. Emperor Justinian in 545. And he didn't change the Bible, but enforced one particular interpretation, seeing as the Bible doesn't explicitly say one way or another. Even Sweedenborg, who had visions of Christ explaining the afterlife to him, didn't teach reincarnation. An example of a Biblical argument against reincarnation comes from Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment". But all well researched Western accounts of reincarnation that I have seen state that after death there is a lengthy process of existing on the other side, beginning with a life review stage aka the judgement, before (potentially, if needed) coming back. This is consistent with the Bible as far I am concerned.

 

Anyway, regarding the original article, if the Gospel accounts are fictional it certainly was not Romans who composed them.

 

thanks for the clarification. After revisiting the matter more deeply, i have to say i stand corrected. much appreciated.

seems that i was under the impression of a common myth. Reincarnation is found in the books of the Kaballah and generally accepted by hasidic Jews, and there are numerous resources about gilgul / gilgulim from wikipedia to online jewish libraries. So i still think that even though i had my precise facts wrong, the point that i bring up stands. i appreciate the correction though.

[RongzomFan]

Old Testament is fictional:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9XK3DcQe9s

This documentary has actual experts like Israel Finkelstein

[h.uriahr]

Not the Council of Nicea in 325. Emperor Justinian in 545. And he didn't change the Bible, but enforced one particular interpretation, seeing as the Bible doesn't explicitly say one way or another. Even Sweedenborg, who had visions of Christ explaining the afterlife to him, didn't teach reincarnation. An example of a Biblical argument against reincarnation comes from Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment". But all well researched Western accounts of reincarnation that I have seen state that after death there is a lengthy process of existing on the other side, beginning with a life review stage aka the judgement, before (potentially, if needed) coming back. This is consistent with the Bible as far I am concerned.

 

Anyway, regarding the original article, if the Gospel accounts are fictional it certainly was not Romans who composed them.

 

---

 

h.uriahr,

 

Your posts bring up the very interesting question of, "To what extent can personal mystical experience validate an entire worldview?" I have noticed your recent posts carry all the signs of an Evangelical worldview (things along the lines of the Bible is the only scripture that anyone ever needs, Satan is deceiving the world into not seeing the truth of Christianity, America has been overrun by the godless, other religions are inspired by demons, etc.) or something very close to it. I can't help but notice that Tibetan_Ice, for example, does not hold such a worldview even though he also has had personal experience of Christ and the Holy Spirit...

 

I wouldn't classify all religions as being demonic. The Book of Romans talks about Gentiles not having the Law but actually knowing it in their hearts. This includes, to me, many other religions containing good people. God is a Judge of the Heart. I do believe that Salvation comes through Christ...here's a secret, and you can't tell anyone but I believe in Salvation for ALL mankind. Hell is a refiner oven where the spiritually wicked and unclean will go to get purged so that they will become blemish free in the eyes of God

Many times in the past Angels have ministered to man.

America has in fact been over ran however. When the President of the United States openly mocks Christianity and Judaism you know that America is on the fast track to doom. He could've mocked Wiccans or Buddhists and I would've said the same thing.

This country is founded on the freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

 

[RongzomFan]

There is no blind faith in Christianity. You either have a direct relationship with Christ or you don't. I don't blindly follow. I follow because I surrender. I can plead for the Blood of Christ and get washed from the top of my head to my feet. I mean a physical manifestation. Many other things as well, all in the Name of Christ. My Faith isn't blind. On the contrary, my Faith is a Gift and I thank The Lord my God, Christ Jesus for His Grace and Mercy. I don't think an article is valid evidence for the argument against Christ.

 

When I was a saved Christian, I said outloud every possible permutation of the salvation prayer, and got nothing.

 

Nada. Zip.

 

Even tried the name Yeshua instead of Jesus, asked for the Holy Spirit etc.

 

So by your criteria, i.e. direct personal experience, Jesus is a fiction.

Edited October 15, 2013 by alwayson

[h.uriahr]

 

When I was a saved Christian, I said outloud every possible permutation of the salvation prayer, and got nothing.

 

Nada. Zip.

 

Even tried the name Yeshua instead of Jesus, asked for the Holy Spirit etc.

 

So by your criteria, i.e. direct personal experience, Jesus is a fiction.

What did "saved Christian" mean to you? The acceptance of Christ into my Heart wasn't from a sinners prayer. It was an internal change that Transformed me. An unlocking or opening of my heart. That was the start of my journey but due to a backslide I had another Hard Encounter with Christ. I was struck down by Lightning, ripped apart yet rebuilt all in an instant in a Miracle Service.

The small coal that was barely warm in me became a hot and raging wild fire of Holy Spirit! That is a direct experience. Faith is more than just a belief. Faith is rooted deep with the Soul. My last experience was so profound that I cannot turn my back on Him.

Edited October 15, 2013 by h.uriahr

[RongzomFan]

That is a direct experience. Faith is more than just a belief. Faith is rooted deep with the Soul. My last experience was so profound that I cannot turn my back on Him.

 

By your criteria of "experience" Jesus is bullshit for me.

[h.uriahr]

By your criteria of "experience" Jesus is bullshit for me.

 

So you admit that He is in fact Real. We are all aware of the reality that Bulls in fact shit. Thank you.

[RongzomFan]

So you admit that He is in fact Real. We are all aware of the reality that Bulls in fact shit. Thank you.

 

I'm starting to think you are completely deluded, and that even YOUR experiences of Jesus are nonexistent.

[h.uriahr]

I'm starting to think you are completely deluded, and that even YOUR experiences of Jesus are nonexistent.

And I'm starting to think that you have absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 15, 2014 by cat