Jesus a fictional character?

[RongzomFan]

I'm waiting for multiple sources....don't leave me hanging.

 

Do you know how much literature is on this stuff?

 

Matthew Kapstein, 'The Strange Death of Pema the Demon-Tamer' in The Presence of Light: Divine Radiance and Religious Experience, ed. Matthew T. Kapstein, University of Chicago Press, 2004

[h.uriahr]

WWJD?!

 

Probably would've hit him with an Uppercut of Righteousness...Idk.

[silent thunder]

There is fuel there. You would find it liberating if you tried it, I think. Report back, if you do.

 

Here's a description of the practice by Pema Chodron, for you and anyone interested.

Thanks Cat. Love this practice, didn't have a name for it.

I've done it many times, mainly in nature, but at times for humans, I usually use it in conjunction with tummo breathing.

Now the original meaning of your words resonate in understanding.

*deep bow*

much love and thanks!

[三江源]

.

Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[h.uriahr]

Do you know how much literature is on this stuff?

 

Matthew Kapstein, 'The Strange Death of Pema the Demon-Tamer' in The Presence of Light: Divine Radiance and Religious Experience, ed. Matthew T. Kapstein, University of Chicago Press, 2004

 

You don't have anything more modern do ya? Your evidence is like mine. My Bible vs your books. As stated before The Book of Romans addresses other people that don't have the Christine Doctrine or the Law. God is a Judge of Heart. Many of your concers have been addressed before

[RongzomFan]

You don't have anything more modern do ya?

 

Meaning what?

 

It dates to 2004.

 

And its published by the University of Chicago, which is the world authority on South Asian studies, beyond even Harvard.

Edited October 15, 2013 by alwayson

[h.uriahr]

Or just loved him a lot. It's funny, this one isnt it.. the word 'fictional' in the title of this thread is a misunderstanding in and of itself.. any accumulation of spiritual focus comes to life... aw, good. thought it was your cup of tea, not surprised you have it already, intuitively.x

Well yes he would've loved him lol.

 

Meaning what? It dates to 2004

I was talking and typing at the same time. Typo. I meant more evidence. It's a book like the Magus of Java. With that said, I acknowledge that with 0 belief, the New Testament is just a book...until certain other events take place.

[RongzomFan]

It's a book like the Magus of Java.

 

No its an academic book published by the University of Chicago.

 

You are being disingenuous again just like before.

[SonOfTheGods]

Thus ending the debate. SoTGs 1 TTB 0 While I disagree with you and say that Jesus Christ IS I cannot prove it. My case, presented in a court of law would lose...horribly so...laughed out of court....tomatoes thrown...it'd be bad...probably go viral though...then my book would sell! Making me a New York Bestseller! It'd be titled Jesus is Real! Therefore in the end it would be known that Jesus IS REAl!!! muahahahahahahahah....For those who don't understand, the above was simply my poor attempt at this thing called "Humor".

 

So if we break it down again:

 

jesus is:

 

god/saviour

 

archetype/catalyst

 

all explained = Tiphareth

 

Shagrath, on 15 Oct 2013 - 17:21, said:

 

 

All in all, it doesn't matter whether he was real or fictional, what matters is what jesus represents.

what jesus represents:

 

Matthew

 

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

 

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

 

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

 

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

 

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

 

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

 

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

 

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

 

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

 

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

 

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

 

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

 

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

 

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

 

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

 

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13

 

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

 

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

 

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

 

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

 

"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

 

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14

 

The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).

 

Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

 

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).

 

Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51

 

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

 

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

 

The parable of the cruel and unjust master

The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30

 

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

 

Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46

 

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

 

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

 

Mark

 

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

 

Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

 

Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

 

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) 7:9-10

 

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

 

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

 

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

 

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16

 

Luke

 

Zechariah asks the angel Gabriel how his wife Elizabeth could become pregnant, since she is "stricken with years." Gabriel makes him "dumb" just for asking. 1:20

 

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3:9

 

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

 

Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

 

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

 

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

 

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

 

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

 

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

 

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

 

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

 

Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

 

In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

 

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20

 

John

 

Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

 

"God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."

As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

 

People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

 

The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

 

Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

 

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

 

Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66

 

OK SO WHO WANTS THIS GUY AS THEIR TAI CHI MASTER? (FOR ALL ETERNITY)

Edited October 15, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[Protector]

I don't care if Jesus is real or not, but that Christianity is real

[h.uriahr]

No its an academic book published by the University of Chicago.

 

You are being disingenuous again just like before.

 

Degrees are very important to you and your spiritual growth. Names and places mean a lot. Brand power is what it is called. Look I'm aware of the fact that the world is sliding away from Christ at a fast rate. Being a Christian is like putting a target on my back. My Experience, Walk, Growth in Christ is very Real. We can argue until we are both blue in the face and you know what we will have gained? Nothing. Your book from Chicago means a lot and I understand. Millions of Bibles are purchased every single year. Probably by uneducated non degree hold millions too.

[thelerner]

I admit I have a grudge against Christianity.

At times I have to, but unless theres a clear and present danger, I fight against my prejudices and often that path has helped me a great deal; opened up vistas and learning I might have missed if I'd clung to them.

[h.uriahr]

SotG,

 

I think you have blinders on. When is the last time you've had your vision checked.

With love of course. Literally speaking, it's chaos. Through spiritual eyes, Beauty. We talk and talk about a third eye here on the bums but when we bring up the Bible we suddenly forget about it? We talk facy talk when debating every other thing but get all nasty and literal with the bible? No wisdom at all.

[RongzomFan]

Your book from Chicago means a lot and I understand.

 

Dude, rainbow body is a central Tibetan Buddhism concept.

 

Its discussed everywhere in Tibetan Buddhism studies published by universities.

 

I only provided one example.

 

Degrees are very important to you and your spiritual growth. Names and places mean a lot. Brand power is what it is called.

 

But you are the one who wanted academic references

[SonOfTheGods]

SotG, I think you have blinders on. When is the last time you've had your vision checked. With love of course. Literally speaking, it's chaos. Through spiritual eyes, Beauty. We talk and talk about a third eye here on the bums but when we bring up the Bible we suddenly forget about it? We talk facy talk when debating every other thing but get all nasty and literal with the bible? No wisdom at all.

 

Bible Exegesis

 

bible is either one or the other

 

literal

 

or

 

figurative, not both = Bible Exegesis

 

if it is figurative then jesus is not god, not a saviour, no sinners and everything is great and no second coming and no kingdom no crucification no resurrection

 

 

if it is literal then all those scriptures I just posted above apply

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32130-jesus-a-fictional-character/?p=486402

Edited October 15, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[h.uriahr]

Bible Exegesis

 

bible is either one or the other

 

literal

 

or

 

figurative, not both = Bible Exegesis

 

if it is figurative then jesus is not god, not a saviour, no sinners and everything is great and no second coming and no kingdom no crucification no resurrection

 

 

if it is literal then all those scriptures I just posted above apply

 

Good argument. In my experience, it comes down to using the Holy Spirit. Levels and sub levels of understanding. Not the best rebuttal but that's all I've got.

[RongzomFan]

Christians are liars.

 

For example in India, they make up this whole bullshit myth about St. Thomas, the apostle to convert people.

 

This is a myth that no one accepts in the west, not even Christians.

[h.uriahr]

Dude, rainbow body is a central Tibetan Buddhism concept. Its discussed everywhere in Tibetan Buddhism studies published by universities. I only provided one example. But you are the one who wanted academic references

Lol because you offered them at first without showing them. An interesting reference too. I will read them later in depth.

 

Christians are liars. For example in India, they make up this whole bullshit myth about St. Thomas, the apostle to convert people. This is a myth that no one accepts in the west, not even Christians.

This is elementary comprehension dude. Christians are liars. An assumption here is that you are calling me and every other Christian a liar.

 

I agree that many christians (not Christians) take advantage of people. That's not a new invention or tactic. How many religious teachers from India have preyed on naive students? A LOT. Does that make all teachers from India bad? No not at all.

[Apech]

Christians are liars.

 

For example in India, they make up this whole bullshit myth about St. Thomas, the apostle to convert people.

 

This is a myth that no one accepts in the west, not even Christians.

 

 

Do you think that if the same scholars who doubt the historicity or divinity of Jesus directed their attention to Buddhism they would accept the 'miracles' of the Buddhist yogis and masters? I doubt it.

 

But I think it is an important distinction between Buddhism and Christianity that the actual person of Christ is key while the actual person of Buddha (while being a focus) is not key - what is key is the buddhadharma in all its forms and stages. So if you were to prove that the Buddha was not a real person then it wouldn't matter very much. The same is true for Lao Tzu as it is generally accepted that the TTC had several authors and not one person.

[RongzomFan]

How many religious teachers from India have preyed on naive students? A LOT.

 

Except, who destroyed all the genuine tantric lineages?

 

It was Islam.

 

I have an academic reference if you like.

 

So if dubious Swamis are a problem, Abrahamic religions are to blame.

[Apech]

Except, who destroyed all the genuine tantric lineages?

 

It was Islam.

 

I have an academic reference if you like.

 

So if dubious Swamis are a problem, Abrahamic religions are to blame.

 

 

I think it may have been more complex than that. Indian society changed dramatically even before Islam appeared in North India ... the break down of the tantric lineages may have been affected by that also.

[RongzomFan]

You can refer to Gavin Flood's Tantric Body page 34.

 

As you know Gavin Flood is arguably the top Hinduism scholar in the world, apart from Saiva specialists, yoga specialists etc.

Edited October 16, 2013 by alwayson

[Apech]

You can refer to Gavin Flood's Tantric Body page 34.

 

As you know Gavin Flood is arguably the top Hinduism scholar in the world, apart from Saiva specialists, yoga specialists etc.

 

 

Ok I bow to your great knowledge. I haven't read Gavin Flood. It might have been Ronald Davidson where I got the idea of pre-Islam upheaval.

[h.uriahr]

Except, who destroyed all the genuine tantric lineages? It was Islam. I have an academic reference if you like. So if dubious Swamis are a problem, Abrahamic religions are to blame.

Just like the gun deaths brought on by the gun right? Not the person pulling the trigger. Got it.Or the guy who drinks and drives, killing a kid later the same night...Alcohols fault right? Sue the alcohol makers!

 

As much as I'm enjoying this thread I'm starting to think I've spent entirely way too much time on the bums today. I must depart for the day. Gotta spend some time in Prayer

[thelerner]

I was at a yoga ashram this summer. There were two guest lecturer's. One was very scholarly, an older distinguished white guy who embraced Hinduism. His lectures were informative and a bit proselyting and he spoke out against Islam. The other lecturer was a famous singer. Also an American and Hindu of note. Yet he talked about hearing Moslem singing and how he'd put his ear tightly against the fence because he heard the divinity there. His path would be Hinduism, but listening to the Islamic was his first taste of divine song.

 

One speaker was intellectual, the other heart centered. The ashram was relaxed enough so I could share coffee with both. Yet I couldn't help but find the singer was the path I'd choose. The intellectual knew his history, saw differences and nursed negativity, even hate, the famous singer, put his mind and heart towards the divine.

 

I like the singer's way better. The crap said against Islam just mirrors the crap their opposites say against us. Peace won't come until we learn to listen and sing together. We decide which way our world points.

Edited October 16, 2013 by thelerner