Necronomicon (Simon's): fake, real, or neither?

[Taomeow]

By "neither real nor fake" I mean transmitted in dreams, visions, "channeling," etc..?

 

I have noticed intriguing stylistic similarity between the sigils of the zonei and the sigils of the Voodoo deities. It vowed me at first but then I found out that Simon the publisher was a researcher of many things magickal, including Afro-Caribbean religio-magical traditions. I'd feel a tad more intrigued if he wasn't, though of course it's no proof of a hoax in and of itself. On the other hand, the preface lists Peter Levenda as one of the translators -- his work I know pretty well and have no reasons to suspect of any hoaxes. However, he collaborated on Necronomicon over 30 years ago, so who knows what he was like back then?..

 

Anyone with any substantiated opinions and/or experience? (No, "Lovecraft says he made it up, ergo it's fake" does not qualify as a substantiated opinion, because practitioners of the craft in general and of the dark arts especially seldom tell any truth at all about anything whatsoever to the general public.)

 

?

 

 

[Nungali]

Like belief in Jesus as a literal character (unless I have the researchers hat on - which doesn't fit very well) I feel it doesn't matter. If the analogy and the system works for you then it has a reality and a validity.

 

Parts of it seem arse about however IMO (but I fixed that ... for myself).

 

It has worked for me in the past ... a LOT better than some other well documented and 'unfaked' systems.

 

Wherever THEY might be? ... < sniffs back through old medieval manuscripts, Arabic antiques, Alexandrian archives, Magi machinations and Avestan Avatars >... I DO find correlations between it and the 40,000 year old native shamanic local traditions though so if we wanted to examine the question in light of such mundane aspects as time-lines then ... who was first?

 

My shamanic teacher meekly raises his hand.

[hod]

Son of Thunder seems to be the best person to talk to about this. He has comment a few times that he has read many of the different version of it and done much research on the subject.

[BaguaKicksAss]

There's an interview somewhere of the authors admitting that they made it up, and what they based it all on .

They did base it on some real stuff, just bits and pieces at random though. More Babylonian than Voudon. I haven't noticed any similarities to the Voudon veves myself, but feel free to elaborate .

 

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/simnecro.html is interesting.

[Seth Ananda]

I feel fairly sure that Simon is Levenda. If i remember rightly one of Simons hand written letters matched Levendas writing, and Simon's rare audio lectures is certainly Levenda's voice...

 

I also personally find it more interesting thinking about 'why' it works so well, more than whether it is historically accurate, but do not wish to sidetrack your thread...

[Taomeow]

OK guys, keep it coming. I've only spent 24 hours with this book and already it's getting super eventful. I knew nothing about it yesterday when I got it (in general, I've nothing on any Western occult modalities except pure theory, save for some Eastern European odds and ends which are largely pagan) and it already manifested a neighbor bearing tamales as soon as I got the munchies, $500 in unexpected profit from a source I didn't anticipate any money from, and several posts above that are only whetting my appetite. I didn't do anything other than read it so far.

 

Levenda is a taoist these days, mostly, no? I'll try reading again with this hypothesis in mind.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention why I got it. I was at Barnes and Noble for an entirely unrelated book when this one jumped at me (you know how books sometimes jump at you, right?..) I picked it up, opened it at a random page to read a random line (this is how I always determine if I should get the book that's jumped or it was just an earthquake that had nothing to do with me). The line went, "Enki, remember!" Two significant words from my own universe. But I still wasn't sure. So I took the I Ching from the adjacent shelf and asked, without throwing coins or anything, just by the same quickie-mart random page method, "I divine buying this book." Got a response to the effect, "normally I wouldn't advise it, but these times we're in, they ain't normal, so feel free." Not a strong message one way or the other, more like, it's up to me. It was cheap, so I got it.

 

I anticipate as much fun as I had with my last mysterious acquisition, The Voynich Manuscript... but don't let me derail my own thread.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Taomeow

[hod]

Thinking of you buying the Necronomicon at Barnes and Noble made me think of this video.

 

Edited October 16, 2013 by hod

[Nungali]

One successful operation.

 

(Note. my version of 'application' not 'text book application')

 

Logging protest camp, very sensitive area, a suspicious person turns up to camp, he is quizzed as to identity, he admits he is forestry inspector and wanted an undercover look, says logging operation the most disgraceful wanton vandalism and environmental destruction he has seen.

 

Local indigenous VERY upset, sacred power site ... scarred trees detected, Indigenous VERY concerned;

 

" In the dreamtime, bad thing happened, people broke 'law', bad energy got loose, protector called up, big fight in sky, goodfella he chopped up badfella , bits fell to earth, 'clever men'; sealed them up so they wouldn't grow back together again.

 

That's what is about to be damaged ... the seal. Things getting hectic, full-on, bashings and violence, F this S !

 

Assistant and I told others to clear the front line one night , give us space. We did our 'thing' which included marking the large roadblock pipes buried upright in the road (that would NOT have had a chance of stopping the logging bulldozer.) with several seals.

 

We did some other stuff, like a warning sign about the spell and what would happen if you disturbed it.

 

Next day some of the protesters are really pissed of with what we did <shrug> .. Alarm - its on, a platoon of loggers, vehicles , etc comes down the road behind a giant logging bulldozer. get to pipes, dozer stops, gets out discussion, a few freakouts, driver heard to say " I have had truck tires let down, rancid piss bombs, but I don't want this s*** this is BS. I have had enough. " And left ... ... but okay Great!

 

Not offering this as any sort of proof of anything ( a veve might have worked as good) but that is what we did ... and that was the result.

 

I have other reasons as well that have convinced me the system worked ... but lately, years later, a lot of 'things' seem to work without a 'system' ... but that's MY secret .... until I can make some money out publishing the secret long lost 'Nungalicon.'

 

Ps. the next day a stop work order was slapped on logging in the area ... now its protected.

 

[One thing I do think about is ... when the Buddhists subdued the Demonic entities in Tibet, they pinned the giant mother down by building temples on the 'pressure points' ( of landscape and momma demons body), seems the Chinese have destroyed or dismantled a LOT of those temples .....

 

Can their

 

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/photo/2009/09/28/20090928-CHINA/30527006.JPG

 

deal with the

 

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/tantra/an_assembly_of_wrathful_deities_hv40.jpg ? ]

Edited October 16, 2013 by Nungali

[SonOfTheGods]

I already made an indepth thread(s) about this:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31181-have-some-heavy-duty-magickians-working-with-the-old-ones/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31066-various-necronomicon-flavors/

 

But your thread will do much better than mine did

Edited October 16, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[xor]

The way I gather is he just wanted to do a Necronomicon. That's an interesting intention in itself and bound to hit something even if all you wanted to do was creative writing.

[Taomeow]

SOTG, you have a dozen versions of the Necronomicon? I think I know how this works... you let them fight it out in your mind.

 

Seriously though, I have well over a dozen versions of the I Ching (and have read over two dozen versions of the Tao Te Ching) --

must have access to the whole morphogenic field (or akashic record or whatever), create a hypersaturated solution, then drop a last drop and whoosh -- it all crystallizes into a coherent structure, ziran, by itself. That's my favorite way to learn anything about anything.

 

But since I only have one version and got it only recently -- what do you think of this one?

 

@ Nungali: about modifying and fixing stuff in it -- do you just ignore the grave warnings against doing this found in Simon's version, or have you used some other version that does not include them or even encourages getting creative with it?

[Taomeow]

An aside. Grimoire means "grammar." A spell is a "spelling." You use magic the way you would use any language -- you need grammar and spelling in order for things to come out the way you intend them to and be understood rather than misunderstood on the receiving end. If you say "congratulations on your erection" while you mean "election," this can cause some embarrassment. Unless that's what you want to generate by mis-spelling.

 

So I can envision someone exceedingly proficient in the language of magic doing whatever they "wilt" --

but I wouldn't recommend this to someone who is still in the process of learning a "foreign language." Mistakes in spoken or written ordinary languages can be minor enough to not matter, or major enough to change the game entirely. A classic example, in the age of telegrams, was a dispatch that was meant to say "pardon him, can't execute" which cost the guy in question his life when the telegraph operator misplaced the comma -- "pardon him can't, execute."

 

This comma in a magical "telegram" could potentially cost quite a bit more.

 

Which is one reason (out of a number) that I look for "authenticity" -- though my definition of it may not be the same as that of the "fake vs. real" contentions about pretty much everything esoteric out there. There was a spelling and/or grammar reform following every major social revolution (the French renamed the months, e.g., Russians eliminated a letter from the alphabet, etc.) This is not insignificant in occult terms. You are recognized by the proficient ones by the grammar and spelling you use -- you open yourself to much scrutiny whether you intended to or not. Every day someone asks me "where are you from" -- because I reveal something about myself just by the way I pronounce words of American English. You reveal a lot more to the spirit world by the way you pronounce spells and write the signs and symbols. If that's your intent it's one thing... if it's a mere side effect, consider its potential to do what you "wilt not..." ...

[Brian]

<snip>...must have access to the whole morphogenic field (or akashic record or whatever), create a hypersaturated solution, then drop a last drop and whoosh -- it all crystallizes into a coherent structure, ziran, by itself. That's my favorite way to learn anything about anything.

</snip>

 

Me, too.

[SonOfTheGods]

I already made an indepth thread(s) about this:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31181-have-some-heavy-duty-magickians-working-with-the-old-ones/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31066-various-necronomicon-flavors/

 

But your thread will do much better than mine did

 

There are a couple of definitive reasons why some Advanced Enochian Magickians (not arm chair theorists or book collectors) eventually move on to the Necronomicon.

 

None of the reasons being that supposedly John Dee penned the Necronomicon

[Nungali]

SOTG, you have a dozen versions of the Necronomicon? I think I know how this works... you let them fight it out in your mind.

 

Seriously though, I have well over a dozen versions of the I Ching (and have read over two dozen versions of the Tao Te Ching) --

must have access to the whole morphogenic field (or akashic record or whatever), create a hypersaturated solution, then drop a last drop and whoosh -- it all crystallizes into a coherent structure, ziran, by itself. That's my favorite way to learn anything about anything.

 

But since I only have one version and got it only recently -- what do you think of this one?

 

@ Nungali: about modifying and fixing stuff in it -- do you just ignore the grave warnings against doing this found in Simon's version, or have you used some other version that does not include them or even encourages getting creative with it?

That was a looong time ago when that happened ,as I said I don't use that stuff anymore ... no problem , I just don't need it.

 

I remember thinking it was structured backwards ... or something ... should do the stuff in the back first then work forwards?

 

[ Radical trying to remember as I am listening to v.loud King Krimson at the moment ]

 

Old Ones?

 

I am tempted to say: "Ha! Old ones ... You haven't got a clue! Sit out in the desert on top of the oldest regolith in the world (they found a zircon crystal there a similar age to the formation of the moon ... so it was formed when Earth melted and reformed from the collision) spend some time with these fellas that have been living on it (and around other ancient eroded places here with the earths skeleton sticking up through it) for at least the last 40-60,000 years. You look into their eyes and they turn into black far away pools, doorways into places you (and Lovecraft) have never seen.

 

If your lucky they might play some music and sing ... and that blows you straight out the top of the crown chakra ... they know EVERYTHING ... in their own way and form.

 

Delightful chaps on another level."

 

I am tempted to say that ...

 

but I better not.

 

Anyway, here is a little taste (not like being there of course (especially when they are 'doing stuff ' to you at the same time ... those are some WILD 'tracing boards' that go with the chanting.

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Old Ones.

 

Here ya go guys. Found in a creek In Australia. Now ... if you find one of these fellas ... cover him up with a stones and back away slowly ... slowly .... don't turn your back on it ....

 

http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/skull.jpg

[Taomeow]

Coming from a knowleageable New One, this sounds like a valuable bit of advice. Now if we could please return to the subject of the OP?

 

(I'd love to learn all you care to share about the Australian Way if you open a thread on that, and we could even compare the Old Ones of your acquaintance with the Ancient Ones I met in Peru... though I'm not likely to want to talk about them, and if I ever do, I'm more likely than not to have only myself for the audience.)

[Taomeow]

What is the grass Olieribos?..

Edited October 22, 2013 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

Read some more of it, and now I understand what Nungali may have meant when he said he "fixed it" in application. It is full of booby traps! Not suitable for a beginner or dabbler, can trip someone experienced too, easily. Regardless of whether it is a transmission or a compilation, it is primarily a test, woe to whoever fails.

 

There's another herb mentioned, forget its Necronomicon name but that one I know -- peony -- and the Necronomicon suggests to use it when summoning an entity from the realm against which this herb is "normally" used specifically to repel rather than attract entities of that nature. What will happen if you invoke a very great and short-tempered power, not known for its benevolence, and as soon as it shows up, squirt it with pepper spray? Ugh. Dangerous stuff.

[joeblast]

well, hopefully you dont do that and then this comes out of your oven

 

[Taomeow]

I've always said that wheat is the devil.

[joeblast]

I've always said that wheat is the devil.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27128-cooking-up-a-storm/page-3#entry482759

[Taomeow]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27128-cooking-up-a-storm/page-3#entry482759

 

This must be yummy, I love doing stuff with cauliflower. But microwave ovens were launched by the devil's apprentice.

 

Respectful bows to the Old Gods and humble apologies to the Ancient Ones for another distraction.

[SonOfTheGods]

I personally knew the guys who put together the Simon.

I had one of the original first editions in the 70's.

 

The Babylonian that was thrown in there is what made it work.

 

IMO the better editions of the "Newer" (LOL) Necronomicons (see my other threads if you like) are worth a look because it uses a more compatible hierarchy from a different culture and resonates with Enochian.

I could back up that Enochian statement, but this isn't the place for that.

 

The many horror stories that accomodate "The Ladder of Lights" is good marketing.

 

That rite, though diluted, brought great things into my life down the road.

 

I'd rate the Simon ed. a 6 out of 10 tentacles.

Edited October 29, 2013 by SonOfTheGods