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[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[Jeff]

The real state cannot be created or constructed, but is the true inherent condition of every individual, which is linked to the relative condition of body, voice, and mind. When one has knowledge of this state, without effort, without being confined to limited sessions of practice, our relaxed presence integrates with our whole lives. Thus, our contemplation becomes continuous, and when one reaches this state the qualities of self-perfection, known as the "three bodies," manifest automatically, in the same way that the sun's rays shine out when the sun rises into the sky.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Edition).

Never forget the "three bodies" part...

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Cat

This is a definition of the Natural State by Lopon Tenzin Namdak, the top Bon lineage Master:

 

CHAPTER9

Introduction to Thekchod and Thodgal

Talk by Lopon Tenzin Namdak,

Devon, May 1991.

Compiled and edited by John Myrdhin Reynolds.

 

The Natural State

In Dzogchen, it is the Natural State that is emphasized, and

this state we must realize for ourselves in our own experience. It

is machopa (rna bcos-pa), that is, there is nothing to change or

modify or create or correct in it. We let it remain just as it is.

 

Thoughts may arise in the Natural State and yet it remains just as

it is. There is no employment of an antidote as in the Sutra system

and no transformation of anything as in the Tantra system. If we

realize this Natural State, that is the real nature of Dzogchen. It is

Thekchod (khregs-chod). [1]

 

We discover this Natural State through a direct introduction,

and not by way of reasoning. The method is to observe how

thoughts arise, how they remain, and how they go. We look back

at our mind and observe it. But we do not interfere or modify

anything; that is not the method. We just let things be and watch

what happens. We will observe that when we do not interfere

with them or try to change them, then thoughts will dissolve of

themselves and leave nothing behind. What do we find? We find

that there is nothing there. This Natural State is inexpressible and

inconceivable. It is empty, but this emptiness is not just nothing

because there is an awareness there. But this awareness or Rigpa

is not the same as our ordinary consciousness (rnam-shes). That

consciousness is dualistic; there is a subject that apprehends and

an object that is apprehended. But here there is an awareness (rigpa)

where the seer and the seen are united and inseparable, like

fire and warmth. However, when we practice the Natural State, it

is not necessary to make an examination and check what is subject

and what is object. In the Natural State, the practitioner does

not examine anything; one is simply Rang-rig or self-aware.

The word Salwa (gsal-ba) means "clarity", but this is not a

physical, visible light. Here "clear" (gsal-ba) means present and

aware. Tongpa (stong-pa) means empty, and these two are

Yermed (dbyer-med) or inseparable. This is like the daytime sky,

where the sky is emptiness (stong) and the sun is luminosity

(gsal). When we remain in a state of presence or immediate

awareness (rig-pa), this state has three qualities: Essence, Nature,

and Energy, which means emptiness, awareness, and their unification.

They are never separate. We only separate them in order

to talk about the Natural State, such as in a commentary. In

actuality, they are never distinct and separate. In general, Dzogchen

teaches this, but in the Longde (klong-sde) series of

teachings, there is more emphasis put on the side of emptiness

(stong-cha), ,whereas in the Semde (sems-sde), there is more

emphasis put on the side of clarity (gsal-cha). But this is only a

matter of emphasis and not one of real distinction or separation.

In this context, long (klong, vast expanse) means tong (stong,

empty}, and sem (sems, mind) means sal (gsal, clear). Then

Upadesha or Manngagide emphasizes their inseparability (gsal

stong dbyer-med). So there are different methods to be found

here in these three series of Dzogchen teachings.

 

According to Tenzin Namdak, the "Natural State" is found all through the body but the largest deposit is in the heart.

 

The Natural State, although diffused throughout

the physical body, is principally located in the hollow space

within the physical heart (tsitta}. The Thodgal visions, even in

dark retreat, appear only in front of us because the translucent

Kati channel links the heart to the eyes. Inside the eyes, we find

two separate channels, one is the vehicle for the normal operation

of the eye consciousness, known as the optic nerve, and the other

is the Kati channel which functions as the passageway for the

movement of Rigpa. The Kati goes up from the hollow in the

physical heart to the back of the brain and then divides into two

before entering into the eyes. This Kati is not used for the normal

functioning of vision. It is called the translucent crystalline

channel Kati (ka-ti shel gyi rtsa). In Thodgal, the visions arise in

the heart, pass along the Kati channel, emerge from the eyes, and

are perceived in the space immediately in front of us. It is like

having a lamp inside a hollow earthen vessel with two holes on

one of its faces. The light inside is then seen in the darkness

outside the vase, but its source is in the interior.

 

Introduction to Thekchod and Thodgal- 197

 

 

According to Tenzin Namdak (and the goal of Bon Dzogchen) first you find the Natural State, then you remain in it. You practice in meditation and then you practice outside of meditation until you incoporate the Natural State into your daily life, 24 hours a day.

 

The purpose of remaining in the Natural State is to purify the obscurations and gain enlightenment. A by-product of the Bon method, since it puts its emphasis on the clarity/luminescence/awareness part of the equation, is that the practitioner will accomplish the rainbow body, which is when the five lights which make up reality dissolve back into pure light (from earth to yellow light, from fire to red light, from water to white light, from air to green light and from space into blue light).

 

According to Bon, there is no difference between the normal reality we see in daily life and the visions that come from the heart. The purpose of the dark retreat is to show the practitioner that there is absolutely no difference, that all realities, normal and empty perceptions/visions are the same. Once realization is made of this, one gains control over the elements and can perform astounding feats, such as walk through walls, transport one's self to other locations, .. miracles..

 

Since the Natural State is difused in the body, you can sense it's presence by using various techniques like dissolving thoughts etc. But since the larger pool of the Natural State lies in the heart, it can come out of that Kati Channel and then you will have quite a good taste of it. I have experienced this heart-to-eyes Natural State five times now, coming out of the eyes through the kati channel. The resultant state has these characteristics: it seems that a luminous clear liquid has sprung forth out of you eyes. This liquid is shiny and bright and everything that is in it is also shiny, bright, luminous and very clear. There is immense love and joy. There is immense silence. There is the overwhelming feeling that you are everything (you are the tree, you are the grass, you are the sky etc).

 

TI

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

 

What does this mean, and what is it like.. how would it practically affect a person...

 

The 'natural state' is revealed by the clarity of a still mind's awareness.. there is no concept of 'three bodies' in the still mind's awareness.. clarity reveals an interactive and interconnected wholeness, a relationship between the parts, and between the parts and the whole.. a synergistic symphony of experiences..

 

Be well..

[SonOfTheGods]

have to define "natural" before you can realize it.

[9th]

Mind has no substance;

it is void, less than a smallest atom.

When seer and seen are both eliminated, the View is truly realized.

As for the Practice — in the Stream of Illumination,

no stages can be found.

Perseverance in Practice is confirmed

when actor and acting are both annulled.

In the Realm of Illumination,

where subject and object are one,

I see no cause, for all is void.

When acting and actor disappear,

all actions become correct.

The finite thoughts dissolve in Dharmadhâtu;

the eight worldly winds [loss-gain, pleasure-pain, praise-blame, health-illness] bring neither hope nor fear.

When the precept and the precept-keeper disappear,

the [moral] disciplines are best observed.

By knowing that the Self-mind is Dharmakâya

Buddha’s Body Absolute

deed and doer disappear.

Thus the glorious Dharma triumphs.

In answer to his disciples’ questioning,

this is the happy song the old man sings!

 

 

- Milarepa

 

 

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

have to define "natural" before you can realize it.

 

You cannot define what has not been realized, that would be like a virgin describing sex..

 

Reliably accurate definitions are derived from actual experiences.. i am not familiar with anything that actually happens in the process of existence that is not natural.. it is the product of a naturally occurring process..

 

What is not 'natural' is to say you want something, but act in ways that are contrary to what you say you want, especially if you are informed of the contradiction.. for someone to say they want peace and harmony but continually incite conflict is not 'natural'..

 

Be well..

[SonOfTheGods]

Greetings..

 

 

You cannot define what has not been realized, that would be like a virgin describing sex..

 

Reliably accurate definitions are derived from actual experiences.. i am not familiar with anything that actually happens in the process of existence that is not natural.. it is the product of a naturally occurring process..

 

What is not 'natural' is to say you want something, but act in ways that are contrary to what you say you want, especially if you are informed of the contradiction.. for someone to say they want peace and harmony but continually incite conflict is not 'natural'..

 

Be well..

if you do not know what you are looking for, how can you find it?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

if you do not know what you are looking for, how can you find it?

 

Why are you "looking for" something? just look, if it is real you will see it, experience it.. but, if you are 'looking for' something, you are seeking something rather than everything, your quest is narrowly focused and your attention much less likely to see the totality of your relationship with the Life you living while seeking 'something'.. don't look 'for something', just look.. if 'something' happens that is consistent with what you have been told, take notice, and keep looking... when people become attached to ideas they stop looking, and Life becomes conditional upon their attachments..

 

Be well..

[konchog uma]

natural state is there before needing to define anything to look for. definitions and looking aren't the way to the natural state. its called natural because its just the state of your mind, before you elaborate on that by trying to define it, so its kind of an experiential thing for me, moreso than something i would like to share any quotes or philosophy about.

[konchog uma]

the natural state is almost universally experienced as expansive, spacious, even blissful, without grasping or fixation, just resting in the nature of what is, as it is. so the practical application is one of peace and being without the usual illusions like that we are seperate from all else, or (building on that) somehow more important lol. even that we matter at all. on the contrary, i find it very pacifying to realize that i don't matter one bit and that when i am gone life will go on as it has gone on for eternity already. so anyway, stuff like that, happiness and peace. compassion comes with the dropping of the illusion of seperation, all the virtues and blisses of attainment that inspire us to practice at all just arise naturally when one abides in the natural state.

[ChiDragon]

What does this mean, and what is it like.. how would it practically affect a person...

The resting heart rate of 60 to 80 beats per minute is considered to be the natural state. Any rate outside the range may be hazardous to the health of a person.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

So.. are there degrees of bieng in this state. It seems to me that there must be.

 

 

Like, a little bit of this seems nice and easy and a relief, and a lot of this is overwhelming and transformative.

 

Degrees would be relative and the natural state is not relative (IMO). So the relativity is only in your perception if it and not in it.

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

"The natural state is not relative." Well that sounds sensible... but is it true?

 

Would that mean that the ecstatic natural state is the natural state of being human, or that to be ecstatic is a deviation form the 'natural'.

 

 

I do resonate with what T-I says.. and have been overtaken by the sublime.. and certainly such revelation seems to be showing ultimate truth that is generally obscured.

 

I take it that natural here is largely a matter of furniture removal. Are we then left with 'natural' as 'empty' and or 'natural' as blissful / exalted.

 

or is it the mixture of the two.. like how dalai llama always is ready to laugh a lot.

 

Nature neing organic one would not expect stasis?

 

Ecstatic means literally standing outside yourself ... in this case it would mean outside your egoic self ... being transported out ... sure so sublime states ... the natural state does not = ordinary state ...

 

If by furniture you means thoughts, feelings, emotions, perceptions and so on ... then I think that the natural state appears in a relative way as a kind of clear background but ultimately even this is relative and all things are included ... as Milarepa said the clouds are the sky and the trees are the mountain ...(from 100,000 songs of Milarepa "Woman's Role in Dharma" last part ... if you have the book). This was explained to me by Ato Rinpoche so not entirely just my thoughts.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Apech

[C T]

it would be nice to get some examples of what unnatural states are, then maybe the understanding will be clearer.

 

as far as i know, natural state is not reflected via blissful, ecstatic acts. any reflection is merely that, a reflection. so to point at anything and declare that as a natural state is already flawed, on the above basis.

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

So the natural state is relative also..but, tell me, is this an academic point or a point which is pragmatic in relation to human consciousness and our practices?

 

ie could you flesh this out for us.. relative because it is still 'a state' at all.. or experienced in relative ways?

 

So ecstacy is outside the ego.. and the natural state is also?

 

No I'm saying the natural state is not relative and non-dual. ... its not an academic point but its probably beyond my skills to explain it properly without it sounding that way. I think you may be right in what you say about 'a state'. If I can think how to express this better I will try later.

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[dawei]

it would be nice to get some examples of what unnatural states are, then maybe the understanding will be clearer.

 

as far as i know, natural state is not reflected via blissful, ecstatic acts. any reflection is merely that, a reflection. so to point at anything and declare that as a natural state is already flawed, on the above basis.

 

For Baopuzi, all practice is unnatural. Thus, Sagehood, transcendence, living an exceedingly long life. Trying to mimic nature is not natural. These are not an endowment from above. Only the ability to develop such unnatural techniques and to achieve something unnatural is.