De or Dao - Which came first?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

From my perspective, I don't anthropormorphize "God," though I think that we have some of "God" in us, so De is God only because God is De -- What people called God was a way of naming De, and Dao, and the One, though the metaphor of a human-being ruler became the hand that was worshiped in place (of the moon), and due to the acceptance of that metaphor, the understanding of Dao was not pursued in the same way that it was amongst Daoists. The way that Dao acts, according to the will of De, was observed, but understood differently. When too many people saw that the way society functioned was wrong, the people that wanted society to function that way took over the meaning of what was "right" and "wrong" by claiming or covertly stealing the authority of the religion, and using that authority to continue their political agendas.

 

As for the quote, "I recognize the beneficence of the power which we all worship as supreme — Order, Fate, the Great Spirit, Nature, DE"

 

see Chapter 51 of the Dao De Jing (tr. Hendricks with my [translation edits])

 

1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them;
2. Substance gives them form and [power/shi] complete them.
3. Therefore the ten thousand things venerate the Way and honor Virtue.

[Therefore the ten thousand things cannot not venerate Dao and cherish De]
4. As for their veneration of the Way and their honoring of Virtue—
5. No one rewards them for it; it's constantly so on its own.

[The ten thousand things are not able to resist the eternal destiny of the self-supportive/supporting/supported nature, Zi Ran]

6. The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them, matures them, completes them, rests them, rears them, supports them, and protects them.
7. It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them;
8. It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent;
9. It matures them but doesn't rule them.
10. This we call Profound Virtue.

[是謂玄德

This is called Xuan De, Mysterious Virtue]

 

I agree that The One, De, and Dao are all part of One thing, but as forms in the formless, we see differences while looking towards the source, until the differences become fewer and fewer, and then we have 3, and then 1.

 

But like parents, who are also 1 (couple), 2 (him and her), and 3 (him, her, parents), "the husband may wear the pants, but his wife tells him which pants to wear." De is the force behind Dao. Voila!

Edited October 26, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Stosh]

Well we disagree on just about everything there.

Surprise surprise

Carry on.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh well, I won't toss back every ball that is thrown at me, but now that the reasons for why I'm putting these ideas forth are established, it will be easier.

 

Essentially, what I've been getting at, is that the Universal power that people experience as "The Holy Spirit" and "God" is more akin to the "Mysterious Virtue" than Dao, in my opinion.

 

Am I placating to a hegemonic monotheism? No, because I actually agree with what I'm saying, but it does help, I find, to be able to respond when someone says "you worship nothingness and so can't know what I know," that "this exists here as well, and it's call ABCDEFG" so that we can find reasons to get together and learn from each other ("in any 3 people, one of them is my teacher") from our common language/understanding rather than launching catapults at each other from afar .

Edited October 26, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Perhaps you may ask him to present something that is agreeable for us........!!!

Wouldn't that be asking for too much? Hehehe.

 

At least he technically agrees that Tao cannot be spoken of and that is why he wants to talk about Te.

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yeah.......But without Tao(道) then there would be no Te(德).

I should think that is a given.

 

Even all the religions of the world, without their god there would be nothing else.

 

Well, I guess I just started a disagreement with my Buddhist friends but we can talk about that in a Buddhist thread.

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Wouldn't that be asking for too much? Hehehe.

 

At least he technically agrees that Tao cannot be spoken of and that is why he wants to talk about Te.

Technically? No, De and Dao can both be spoken of - just not ultimately defined in words

 

Yeah.......But without Tao(道) then there would be no Te(德)

Why?

 

Even all the religions of the world, without their god there would be nothing else.

What do you mean by that?

[Marblehead]

Technically? No, De and Dao can both be spoken of - just not ultimately defined in words

I agree regarding Dao. (How can we speak of the fulness of the emptiness (potential)?) I disagree regarding De. Now, don't get me wrong, there is still so much we (Humanity) don't understand. But there is the potential for understanding. But it has been said that too much learning causes exhaustion. Better to know when to stop.

 

What do you mean by that?

What I mean is that their god is the source of creation and the purpose of life. Without their god there would be no purpose in life not even creation of life in the first place. Surely their god had a purpose.

[ChiDragon]

 

ChiDragon, on 26 Oct 2013 - 15:16, said:

Yeah.......But without Tao(道) then there would be no Te(德)

 

 

Why?

 

A merit was given to someone who executes the principle of Tao which is called Te(德), so to speak. If there was no Tao, then there was no principle of Tao to follow. Thus there would be no Te.

 

[Marblehead]

Nice to see you guys can agree now and again. Hehehe.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

A merit was given to someone who executes the principle of Tao which is called Te(德), so to speak. If there was no Tao, then there was no principle of Tao to follow. Thus there would be no Te.

 

But we're not talking about merits given to people, we're talking about Xuan De, Mysterious Virtue. The Dao is the Destiny of how things happen. De is the force from which these things CAN be born, allowing them to arise as per the Destiny of Dao.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I agree regarding Dao. (How can we speak of the fulness of the emptiness (potential)?) I disagree regarding De. Now, don't get me wrong, there is still so much we (Humanity) don't understand. But there is the potential for understanding. But it has been said that too much learning causes exhaustion. Better to know when to stop.

 

What I mean is that their god is the source of creation and the purpose of life. Without their god there would be no purpose in life not even creation of life in the first place. Surely their god had a purpose.

 

"The Dao that can be spoken" refers to political philosophy, and philosophies of social propriety, which are simply a matter of strategies and compartmentalizations of "appropriate" and "inappropriate," which exist as a matter of logic and words. This is not the Eternal Dao. This does not mean that the Dao can not be spoken of (evidenced by the existence of the Dao De Jing), it simply means that those things are not Eternal. I don't want to go off topic, but De and Dao are both spoken of in all 81 Chapters of the Dao De Jing, either overtly or implicitly, and many many many other places, including occasionally here too.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I am sorry, you have not specified that you are talking about Xuan De(玄德) in the title of the thread. That is a whole different story. I am too late to joint into the discussion now. Therefore, I will remove myself from the discussion.

been there..

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but then I have said a few times that we can talk about some of the characteristics of Tao. Chuang Tzu said that before I did.

 

You and I have a different understanding about whether or not aspects of Tao can be spoken to. I doubt that either of us are 'wrong'.

 

But yes, which came first? I suggest that Tao didn't "come" as it has and will always exist in some form or another. But then, in many of its forms they likely won't be anyone around anywhere within its unbounded boundries to talk about it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

But yes, which came first? I suggest that Tao didn't "come" as it has and will always exist in some form or another. But then, in many of its forms they likely won't be anyone around anywhere within its unbounded boundries to talk about it.

 

Hmm, to say that Dao needs De to "Dao" upon something does not necessarily mean that Dao wasn't there, as latent potential, before. You do have a point. For people, as "beings," it might seem that De comes first, since Chi, and perhaps "awareness," first started from De, and there is plenty of opportunity to later see the workings of Dao that followed.

 

Still, that would be a bit like saying that a baby which hasn't been conceived yet, is already in existence. What do you think?

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Technically.... Xuan De is inferred in the title.

 

Xuan can mean mystery, profound, Original, Primordial.

 

So in context of 'which came first', this is asking about Origin of, or Original De.

 

H.E. made an explicit argument for it on Page 2 as Xuan De... but it has been inferred all along.

 

I think this is what is meant by Grokking on some level...

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Xuen De(玄德) was defined in Chapter 51 which is independent of the De(德) as in Dao De(道德).

 

I understand that this is your interpretation... but that was not the OP's position and argument. As I mentioned, on Page 2 the OP made his argument .... from Ch. 51.

 

道德 does not exist in the book... and is a much later imaginative naming for the book... so that would be confusing term to introduce in this thread as it is not what the OP is saying.

Edited October 28, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Xuen De(玄德) was defined in Chapter 51 which is independent of the De(德) as in Dao De(道德).

CD, you're taking this towards another two pages of off-topic posts which will obscure the on topic discussion in the thread (as per your recent behaviour). Please start a new topic where you can discuss what you want to talk about, including anything related to this thread, of which, 7 posts later, you have still not read the first page. Feel free to PM me if there is something you need to know about it and I will explain it there. Otherwise, feel free to contend this request in the office. Please do not post your questions on this thread. Thanks.

 

- the OP

[Harmonious Emptiness]

De is the Light. Dao is the Way.

[Marblehead]

Hmm, to say that Dao needs De to "Dao" upon something does not necessarily mean that Dao wasn't there, as latent potential, before. You do have a point. For people, as "beings," it might seem that De comes first, since Chi, and perhaps "awareness," first started from De, and there is plenty of opportunity to later see the workings of Dao that followed.

We are actually in agreement here even though it might not appear so.

 

 

Still, that would be a bit like saying that a baby which hasn't been conceived yet, is already in existence. What do you think?

Totally different horse on a different continent. The baby is one of the "ten thousand things", which appear much later after the 'appearance' of De.

 

But yes, from the beginning of the birth of the ten thousand things the potential for the baby was there. But not before then.