De or Dao - Which came first?

[Marblehead]

De is the Light. Dao is the Way.

But a person with good vision can find their Way in the dark. Would they need light?

[Brian]

But a person with good vision can find their Way in the dark. Would they need light?

 

Yes. Those who believe they can see in the dark are simply not noticing the light that is present. Those who navigate in true darkness do so by groping & stumbling, or by rote after having groped stumbled a one-familiar path.

[Marblehead]

Yes. Those who believe they can see in the dark are simply not noticing the light that is present. Those who navigate in true darkness do so by groping & stumbling, or by rote after having groped stumbled a one-familiar path.

I ain't buying that. You need do better. Hehehe.

 

("Vision" in my usage does not apply only to eye sight.)

[Brian]

 

I don't "need" to do many things, my friend.

 

"Sight" (eye or otherwise) is a perception. The ear doesn't perceive without sound, the eye doesn't perceive without visible light, etc.one doesn't see the Path without the Light.

 

BTW, I am not commenting on the chicken vs egg question, mind you...

Edited October 28, 2013 by Brian

[Marblehead]

 

I don't "need" to do many things, my friend.

 

"Sight" (eye or otherwise) is a perception. The ear doesn't perceive without sound, the eye doesn't perceive without visible light, etc.one doesn't see the Path without the Light.

 

BTW, I am not commenting on the chicken vs egg question, mind you...

Hehehe. You are right. You "need" do that only if you wish to cause me to understand where I am 'wrong'.

 

Yes, I know where you are. But I can't go there.

 

To the topic question, I still suggest that the creation capability (the creator) has alway existed. Then there was light.

 

Things were still happening before there was light. Dao was still "Daoing" (creating) before before there was anything to show the light to (for De to nurture).

 

And yes, the ear perceives the absence of sound. It is still serving its function.

[Brian]

Personally, I think the whole discussion is a bit silly -- much like the chicken and the egg. Whether de precedes dao or vice versa, or whether they appear simultaneously (whatever that means) or whether they are really two aspects of the same thing -- it seems to me to be mental masturbation.

 

Perhaps the Path is self-illuminating, like a glow-in-the-dark Yellow Brick Road? I'm OK with that, too...

 

I agree with you, though -- if reality is a creation scenario then the creator necessarily precedes the creation.

 

Naah, the ear converts a mechanical signal (moving air) to an electrical signal (moving ions) which in turn trigger interpretation processes within the brain. If the mechanical, electrical or interpretive apparatus are nonfunctional or if the signal is null, there is no perception. If the transistor radio is turned off, there is no reception.

 

Perception requires both something to perceive and the ability to perceive it. A willingness or desire to perceive is just a nicety...

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Brian

[dawei]

whether they appear simultaneously (whatever that means)

 

meaning inseparable. You don't have one without always the other there... but I may re-consider this if I push back to a wu-state; I think Dao is doing it's jig in the WU-state, which is 'nothing'... but not sure that De is necessary... it may be dormant but not needed until 'existence' emerges.

[Brian]

My uncertainty was around the concept of simultaneity (I learned my relativity well) but I would take the inseparability concept with a grain of salt, too.

 

[Marblehead]

Personally, I think the whole discussion is a bit silly -- much like the chicken and the egg. Whether de precedes dao or vice versa, or whether they appear simultaneously (whatever that means) or whether they are really two aspects of the same thing -- it seems to me to be mental masturbation.

But here we sit masturbating. Hehehe.

 

Perhaps the Path is self-illuminating, like a glow-in-the-dark Yellow Brick Road? I'm OK with that, too...

Yea!

 

I agree with you, though -- if reality is a creation scenario then the creator necessarily precedes the creation.

Exactly. But in Taoism we must be careful with that word "creator" lest a misunderstanding be attained.

 

Naah, the ear converts a mechanical signal (moving air) to an electrical signal (moving ions) which in turn trigger interpretation processes within the brain. If the mechanical, electrical or interpretive apparatus are nonfunctional or if the signal is null, there is no perception. If the transistor radio is turned off, there is no reception.

 

Perception requires both something to perceive and the ability to perceive it. A willingness or desire to perceive is just a nicety...

 

Hehehe. I get to fuss with you here.

 

Consider, if you will, you are in your living room and the only sound is that of your favorite album playing on the turntable. The tone-arm reaches the area beyond the last song. The tone-arm returns to its rest position and all is silent. You perceive the difference, mentally, between the time when your music was playing and now when all is silent. The ear was functioning when there was sound and it is no longer functioning now that there is silence.

 

The ear is still working, and doing so properly, in the silence as it is not sending any signals to the brain that are perceived as sound.

 

On occasion the astronauts can close their eyes and still see little bursts of light. These bursts of light are bursts of radiation coming from the sun. Even with their eyes closed their optic system is still 'seeing' and the brain visualizes this light.

[Marblehead]

meaning inseparable.

I stopped reading right there in order to say "Yea!!!!!". Now you've got it!

 

(Okay. Back to reading the rest of the post.)

[Marblehead]

You don't have one without always the other there... but I may re-consider this if I push back to a wu-state; I think Dao is doing it's jig in the WU-state, which is 'nothing'... but not sure that De is necessary... it may be dormant but not needed until 'existence' emerges.

Interesting. Let's say that Dao is doing nothing. But it is the source of things that are being done. De and Tzujan in action. Dao in the pure Wu state.

 

Yes, I would agree with the thought that De is dormant while Dao is in its "singularity" state. But Tzujan is still behind Dao.

[dawei]

Interesting. Let's say that Dao is doing nothing. But it is the source of things that are being done. De and Tzujan in action. Dao in the pure Wu state.

 

Yes, I would agree with the thought that De is dormant while Dao is in its "singularity" state. But Tzujan is still behind Dao.

 

(H.E. can let me know if he would rather this get moved to another, new thread).

 

 

Response started as a new thread as Cosmology in ancient chinese text

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/

Edited October 28, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Go ahead Dawei, the thread was to discuss origins (and ultimately to look at the nature and place of De).

[Stosh]

Electromag waves still exhibit potentials , whether transistor circuits amplify them.

The one time existance of a sound suggests that there could be sound which is not present now, sound and silence without an ear exist as vibrations and stillness , again mutually arising.

For anything , even the universe as a total , requires the reverse of it , to exist simultaneously, or the universe would be as a drop of water in an endless sea.

The path around the mountain does not negate the mountain..it indicates the mountain exists, whether one encounters the mountain or not.

In this here universe this principle is the rule.

In alternative universes it might not be..that situation ,would be alien to our understanding.

So being rational about the subject of origin requires us to stick to the basic principles that apply here in ours. This pushes us to a conclusion that the stuff which actually exists has always existed as long as this existance has existed in some existing form or other.

There is no first existance which does not defy that which we can logically arrive at.

There is some evidence to suggest that empty space in this universe actually has a density determining the rate of propagation of light and energies.. so this universe may clearly BE a drop of empty space in a sea of empty space. That all might have significant implications for subatomic physics.. but in sooth , its just outside my ken , so I don't worry about it.

Change what you will, accept what you cannot change, ignore that which does not address the ultimate question.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

(H.E. can let me know if he would rather this get moved to another, new thread).

 

 

Response started as a new thread as Cosmology in ancient chinese text

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/

Not sure if I was misunderstood or not -- I meant go ahead and talk about that here. Perhaps the new thread will be better from a new start.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Electromag waves still exhibit potentials , whether transistor circuits amplify them. The one time existance of a sound suggests that there could be sound which is not present now, sound and silence without an ear exist as vibrations and stillness , again mutually arising. For anything , even the universe as a total , requires the reverse of it , to exist simultaneously, or the universe would be as a drop of water in an endless sea. The path around the mountain does not negate the mountain..it indicates the mountain exists, whether one encounters the mountain or not. In this here universe this principle is the rule. In alternative universes it might not be..that situation ,would be alien to our understanding. So being rational about the subject of origin requires us to stick to the basic principles that apply here in ours. This pushes us to a conclusion that the stuff which actually exists has always existed as long as this existance has existed in some existing form or other. There is no first existance which does not defy that which we can logically arrive at. There is some evidence to suggest that empty space in this universe actually has a density determining the rate of propagation of light and energies.. so this universe may clearly BE a drop of empty space in a sea of empty space. That all might have significant implications for subatomic physics.. but in sooth , its just outside my ken , so I don't worry about it. Change what you will, accept what you cannot change, ignore that which does not address the ultimate question.

 

This does make sense. From my perspective, the beginning is when Life, including Heaven and Earth, starts, even if there was something static before that. From the perspective of Emptiness, there may be other things, but the party doesn't really start until De is on the scene all the same.

[Stosh]

Great! then the thread is resolved amicably.

I knew it could happen once in a while!

[Marblehead]

Great! then the thread is resolved amicably. I knew it could happen once in a while!

But that's only because I stopped talking. Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Yin begets Yang

[opendao]

De is the Light. Dao is the Way.

 

Dao and De are used in DDJ in many contexts. So depending on the context, De can be first or last. If De is the root then it is about practice, where we need De to attain Dao (part of reversal process). If Dao is first then it is about natural way how De appears.

 

Just my 2 cents