What exactly is a dan tien?

[ChiDragon]

Lol so you believe the same thing about chakras?

 

You know my friend, I only know the name by dan tien and nothing else. I have no idea what chakras is. So, I don't want to mix ideas with two systems to avoid any undesirable confusion factor. My standing is purely in the Chinese Taoism system.

[KenBrace]

 

You know my friend, I only know the name by dan tien and nothing else. I have no idea what chakras is. So, I don't want to mix ideas with two systems to avoid any undesirable confusion factor. My standing is purely in the Chinese Taoism system.

I am surprised that any taoist system would not have at least basic teachings about chakras.

Edited October 22, 2013 by KenBrace

[ChiDragon]

I believe chakras is a non-Chinese term.....???

[dawei]

I am surprised that any taoist system would not have at least basic teachings about chakras.

 

Be more surprised when someone claims to talk in a taoist system topic and doesn't even know the system itself !

 

I will leave behind the pedantic issues of location and claims that your english grammar is the cause of issues

 

I will share some background on dan tian from a taoist texual point of view. Ultimately, it is not about words or location but about an experience which may come after some more understanding... and something tells me that is your interest here.

[BaguaKicksAss]

So after spending 10 minutes trying to find the proper image on google, I just drew one instead (which only took 5 minutes lol).

 

"The lower dantien, Mr. Sketch scented markers on 11x7" computer paper"

 

Edit: sorry there was no grey marker, had to use purple insead...

 

Edited October 23, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[dawei]

ah !!!!!!

 

Look at the base color of red rising up !!!!

 

Where in alchemy does this come from???

 

NOT CINNABAR... that is a late addition...

 

It comes from Laozi himself.

 

What exact chapter? what exact character?

 

If you don't know alchemy as experience then do not respond.

[ChiDragon]

 

 

What exactly is a dan tien?

 

When you post this, have you thought of the difference between an external and internal alchemy. What you have shown here is for external alchemy which is what leads the idea of internal alchemy. The cauldron is used for the external alchemy to make elixir in the past by the ancient Chinese Taoist. Later, they had derived the idea of internal alchemy from the external idea. They were thinking that the dan tien(internal) is equivalent to the cauldron(external).

 

 

PS.....

Let's not have a miscarriage of this immature thread due to some emotional effects.

 

Edited to correct grammar. I am still learning....!!!

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

So after spending 10 minutes trying to find the proper image on google, I just drew one instead (which only took 5 minutes lol).

 

"The lower dantien, Mr. Sketch scented markers on 11x7" computer paper"

 

Edit: sorry there was no grey marker, had to use purple insead...

 

 

This was how the idea of internal alchemy was derived from by imaging that a cauldron was placed in the LDT.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Well take this with a few pounds of salt, but...

 

Your intestines in your physical body are an exchange point, load them up with food and water, and they extract nutrients, and expel waste from your body.

 

Your lungs exchange bring in O2, and expel CO2, and your heart moves the oxygen and nutrients around your body.

 

Your brain converts this chemical energy, glucose, O2, etc into bio-electro-chemical energy, it takes in energy in the form of nerve impulses from all the sense organs, and and exchanges energy along nerve fibers to guide the body.

 

So in the physical body the areas around where the the dan tiens exist are points of exchange.

 

The LDT, extraction of chemical energy, removal of chemical waste

 

MDT exchange O2 for waste CO2, circulation of O2, and nutrition throughout body.

 

UDT exchange of information input in the form of nerve impulses, output in the form of information sent to the nerves to move muscle fibers.

 

I hypothesize that the dan tiens perform similar functions in the "spiritual" body.

 

Just my $0.02

 

These are the exact descriptions of the functions what were taken place in those locations in the human body. UDT is the head where the brain is. The MDT is where the lung is. Finally, the LDT is abdomen.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

A black hole with nothing to feed it is still a node that goes beyond spacetime.

 

Feed it sufficiently, however, and...

 

 

energy swirling about the node gets significantly accelerated by the node itself and manifests thusly, pouring out well beyond the node.

[dawei]

 

This was how the idea of internal alchemy was derived from by imaging that a cauldron was placed in the LDT.

 

The cauldron is a late addition... it is external idea... it is not about the cauldron... RED is the key here. IT is from the DDJ...

[ChiDragon]

Please stop confusing the issue here. What is from the DDJ....???

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Please stop confusing the issue here. What is from the DDJ....???

 

First you belittle the topic:

Here we go, again, with another round at it...!!!

 

 

Then you try to control the topic:

Please don't go there.

 

Then your confused:

Does that mean the LDT is a point located in the center of the chest or a little bit below it........???

 

 

Then you accuse the OP of being confused and needing a grammar lesson from you:

Since the OP has no idea what dan tien is, perhaps the OP should have had stated:

What exactly is "dan tien"....??? rather than

What exactly is "a dan tien".....???

 

The "a" is the culprit which misled everybody. It is because dan tien is not a thing but only a location on the body....!!!

 

 

Then you quote yourself without saying a word… and ignore what the OP is making as a point... which means you don't want to stay on topic.

 

Then you say you are kicked out of the conversation (only to continue to post many more times)

 

Then you admit you only know the Dan Tian by name and nothing else; You don’t know the chakras. Your trying to avoid confusion of systems; but you don’t know them anyways. You claim to know the Chinese system yet have no understanding of what Dan Tian means except as a location.

 

 

Then you belittle the OP and the thread again:

Let's not have a miscarriage of this immature thread due to some emotional effects.

 

 

Then you want to talk “location” again… which has been said more than once is not the topic.

 

 

Then you accuse another of confusing the topic and are confused about the DDJ:

Please stop confusing the issue here. What is from the DDJ....???

 

---

 

This is your normal M.O... jump into threads you know nothing about, claim to have all the answers, and then end up blaming others for confusing...

 

Do we really need to endure this over and over and over just because you have nothing better to do than find a post to do this in? (This is a rhetorical question... no answer is expected; only insight).

Edited October 23, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Stop it. This will be ended up in the pit just like all the threads with your last word. Please don't get emotional.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

There is no emotion except yours. Can't you even see it? I Just posted all your emotional posting in one place.

 

Print it out; meditate on it... Realize who is causing the problems and has the emotional angst.

 

And your snide remarks are not unnoticed... again, you want to belittle someone... "threads with my last words".

 

I didn't realize you cared so much about post count seeing that your 3000 more posts than me even though you joined later...

 

Best advice is to leave the posts to those who know the topic to discuss.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

These are the exact descriptions of the functions what were taken place in those locations in the human body. UDT is the head where the brain is. The MDT is where the lung is. Finally, the LDT is abdomen.

Who says the spiritual body isn't biological as well?

[ChiDragon]

Who says the spiritual body isn't biological as well?

hmmmmm.........

Spiritual do make everything works for all bodies......... :D

 

BTW....

Your input has indicated that you are the most knowledgeable and the closest about internal alchemy which explained in modern scientific terms.

 

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[SonOfTheGods]

A concept.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' that has emerged, that appears separate from the intent of the thread itself.

 

Dan tian, is one of those terms that everyone uses and yet if you ask 10 people what it is, you'll get 11 answers (sorry I know I've used that expression before, but I like it ). That is why on a pragmatic level, I listen to my teachers explanations, use that to weigh up my own experiences based on practice, and nothing else.

 

Of course I have past experiences and did much reading before I found those teachers, so let me digress a little. Dan tian and chakras. I know several American qigong teachers who use the terms interchangeably. Most of them however, have more of a background in Buddhist (usually esoteric) teachings than Daoist.

 

Bruce Frantzis, despite all his foibles, has certainly depth of experience in Daoist practice (as well as Buddhist, and Indian Yoga), he says that chakras and dantian are not quite the same thing. If he is not a valid person to cite, the late Master Nan Huaijin, someone also very well versed in Daoist and Buddhist practice, also states that the dan tian and chakra are not the same thing.

 

My direct personal experience of dan tian and of working with chakra have led me to feel they are not the same thing, but I have a long way to go, so who knows how I'll feel in 20 or more years.

 

Now, location, I know I know, you didn't what to go there, but it is relevant I promise . Today everyone talks of shangdantian, zhongdantian, and xiadantian. Qigong has become largely synthesised into a uniformity, everyone knows where these are.

 

All I will say, is that I have two teachers from two 'classical' lineages [meaning they easily trace back past the invention of modern "qigong" and much of all that has happened since] that are unrelated, that not only teach something different to the usual version of "qigong" above but teach a virtually identical approach to understanding what a dantian is, as well as the locations associated with them. Technically the one lineage delineates five dantian, if we are talking "microcosmic location". But both agree about the "macrocosmic" dantian [my terms made up for this post, not lineage teachings].

 

Location is in fact tied the experience of them, and in my feeling, why they are not the same as chakras, but that might just be me.

 

As for what it is, and I will say this here as it is no secret given my teachers have this information out in the public sphere. I will pass on both descriptions as I like both, and feel they compliment each other.

• Dantian is the 'deep yin place' of something. Apart from being a reference to only 'the deep yin' place within a skeletal cavity, the marrow is also the "dantian" of your limbs.
• Dantian is a "place where energy storage and transmutation occurs".

Further to this, when or if your shen goes travelling the dantian can be very important

 

I also like the picture JB posted in post # 36.

 

Wrapping your head around your teachers teachings and how it relates to and aids your progress in their methods is all that is important. It doesn't matter if someone else thinks something else.

 

Best,

Edited October 23, 2013 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Whats going to really bake your noodle later is,

 

"how are dantian and weiqi related?"

 

But then, we'd have to debate the crap out of just what "weiqi" is first

 

All I will say, is that whether the terms above are used or not, the experience and the teaching guiding you to that are often the same.

 

Sorry, is that too cryptic? The Chinese perspective is not a definitional one, Lao Zi chapter one! It is relational, via function. So any term is a function, not a "thing". And as per Lao Zi, if we can only understand left because we have a right, an up because of down and so forth.

 

So dantian, "on its own", devoid of relationship to anything else doesn't make sense. It is in the inter-connected weaves of the relationships that we come to understand these concepts.

 

So, what is related to dantian, and how can you use those relationships to better feel experience and understand dantian, via embodied rather intellectual knowledge?

 

Best,

Edited October 23, 2013 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

I like your understanding about the dan tien and chakras from a third party.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

I like your understanding about the dan tien and chakras from a third party.

 

"The Tan Tien and the chakras are different although they have similar functions and effects." Master Nan Huaijin Tao & Longevity pg 11

 

Similar but different

 

"Are Chakras and Tan Tiens the same?

 

Not exactly, although both terms denote major energy centers of the human body. The seven chakras of the yogic system (or nine, if you count the chakras above the head) are primarily the gateways to different levels of human consciousness. They only tangentially influence human physical health, through psychological and psychic interlinks. The three tantiens of the Chinese system are also gateways to the different levels of human consciousness. However, the lower tantien also directly controls all the energy channels, both major and minor, which govern and regulate all aspects of physical health.

 

Trying to understand the similarities and differences between both systems intellectually is an immensely complex task. From all sorts of functional points of view, key points of both the tantien and chakra systems are sometimes the same, sometimes similar, and sometimes completely different. It is best, at least initially, to study each system entirely on its own terms. After you have experientially studied both systems equally in depth, the connections and interlinks between them will become obvious." Bruce Frantzis

 

Also...

 

Some old related threads;

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/1563-sacrum-vs-dan-tian/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/1566-subtle-body-anatomy-of-tan-tiens-and-chakras/

Edited October 23, 2013 by snowmonki

[soaring crane]

I heard a lecture (in person, in the U.S.) by a *shaolin monk from China. The translator called the "energy centers" that he was pointing to on his body "chakras." He even highlighted points on the arms and shoulders.

 

Buddhist

 

The line isn't between Chinese and Indian, it's between pre-Buddhist and post-Buddhist Chinese.

 

For locations and physical make-up of DT's, I also feel Yang Jwing-Ming's book Embryonic Breathing explores the question intelligently. I train a few times a year with Austrian students of his and they point out the physical aspects of the 'energy centers'. The most profound for me is the middle DT, the diaphragm, seat of the Huang Ting (see info under my name, lol). It may not be traditionally accurate, but I view it now as the line of horizon between the sky and the ground while gazing across an expansive landscape, at dawn.

 

(hope that link works for)

[soaring crane]

But then, we'd have to debate the crap out of just what "weiqi" is first

 

wei qi = knight in shining armor

 

I enjoyed your entire post, btw

Edited October 23, 2013 by soaring crane

[dawei]

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' that has emerged, that appears separate from the intent of the thread itself.

 

(you just had to say something instead of nothing)

 

My direct personal experience of dan tian and of working with chakra have led me to feel they are not the same thing, but I have a long way to go, so who knows how I'll feel in 20 or more years.

 

Agreed. If one can't figure this out in their own body, I would highly recommend learning partners energy. I attribute my very fast understand to energy work by working in pairs/groups as my introduction to Qi... A room full of people engaged in energy exchange will create a platform and base which understands energy is not just words on a forum or book. After I did clincials, and faced some very bad Qi in people, I had one person I could not approach the table as there was a force pushing me away...

 

 

Now, location, I know I know, you didn't what to go there, but it is relevant I promise .

 

Yes... and you rightly show why. Nice job.