寒月 Hanyue Posted October 23, 2013 (you just had to say something instead of nothing) Well, of course Agreed. If one can't figure this out in their own body, I would highly recommend learning partners energy. I attribute my very fast understand to energy work by working in pairs/groups as my introduction to Qi... A room full of people engaged in energy exchange will create a platform and base which understands energy is not just words on a forum or book. After I did clincials, and faced some very bad Qi in people, I had one person I could not approach the table as there was a force pushing me away... Experience is what matters. But guidance helps practice, which leads to experience. Problems arise if you are studying mehtod A, but reading about and thinking about method B Yes... and you rightly show why. Nice job. Thank you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 23, 2013 Experience is what matters. But guidance helps practice, which leads to experience. Problems arise if you are studying mehtod A, but reading about and thinking about method B Ah.. truth so clear it cuts like a knife... And people argue about why are the chakra's seen by the so-called experts in experience as different colors... why can't the enlightened agree to a simple fact of color!!! ergo, there must be some conspiracy about chakras and maybe they don't even exist ! Talk is BS... experience is the Way. While we all would like to ask each other: "What is your experience... what did you feel or see...." What I experienced, felt, or saw may not be what you do. To ourselves, we are experiencing but for others we are but a finger pointing... and some simply point in the wrong direction 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 23, 2013 I train a few times a year with Austrian students of his and they point out the physical aspects of the 'energy centers'. The most profound for me is the middle DT, the diaphragm, seat of the Huang Ting (see info under my name, lol). It may not be traditionally accurate, but I view it now as the line of horizon between the sky and the ground while gazing across an expansive landscape, at dawn. Wanted to at least give a word to this... Nicely said as the MDT is maybe the runt of the Three Fields (santian) and the Three Chambers (sanfang).... and least explored. I learned how to pass energy between the Great Three and the practitioner who taught me said nobody had been able to do it as fast as I had... What she was assuming is that teaching-practicing-performing is a fixed timeline. Forget statistics when it comes to energy work and accept it is based more on experience... some people are born with it, so I am slow compared to them. What is interesting, is that with all the talk of "Qi"... we don't talk about the energy center of Qi... which is the MDT... LDT - Jing (essence, for lack of a better word) MDT - Qi (energy, for lack of a better word) UDT - Shen (spirit; the best word I have found) I recall my ex-Qigong sifu saying... put your hand in front of my chest... what do you feel... He could project energy from his MDT... He never asked me to do that with his LDT... maybe he thought I might grab his candy... who knows.... Conspiracies abound... Middle Dan Tian... It is time someone spoke up for this runt ! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 23, 2013 Whats going to really bake your noodle later is, "how are dantian and weiqi related?" But then, we'd have to debate the crap out of just what "weiqi" is first Ok... is this a slight at the thread about Dao or De first? Maybe not.. and this is original humor But I love this point... interconnection makes not just connections but understanding grow... dantian, "on its own", devoid of relationship to anything else doesn't make sense. It is in the inter-connected weaves of the relationships that we come to understand these concepts. Oh... I stole your thunder... but you said it first... so you have first thunder and I have second thunder... So, what is related to dantian, and how can you use those relationships to better feel experience and understand dantian, via embodied rather intellectual knowledge? I am not sure if the OP wants to go this direction but this is very important... Dan Tian are energy centers inside... Weiqi is the energy centers (spheres) outside... which comes first? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 23, 2013 But I love this point... interconnection makes not just connections but understanding grow... I generally dislike quoting myself but I take this point from Snowmoki... My wife is back visiting china... so I need to tend to the plants... so I went out to sit by one... I water them... I can see the newer, greener leaves... and those still trying to bud a flower... Yet they depend on the sun as well... but what about another runt? The wind. A nice breeze blows by... the leaves all move... yet, I find they are just saying "hello" back to the wind; a welcome. I wait for the next wind; to let it also talk to me... it comes... my hands suddenly fill with Qi... Hello back... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KenBrace Posted October 23, 2013 Your input has indicated that you are the most knowledgeable and the closest about internal alchemy which explained in modern scientific terms. That's sort of what I was looking for. A more clear, scientific explanation. I doubt that many people have this depth of understanding but I figured it was worth a try. Somebody might have at least a theory. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) That's sort of what I was looking for. A more clear, scientific explanation. I doubt that many people have this depth of understanding but I figured it was worth a try. Somebody might have at least a theory. Okay, finally, I got somebody's attention. Please review posts #33 and 34 which is the prehistoric concept that was originated for internal alchemy with the ingredients of jing, chi, and shen. We will have to continue with the discussion without any external influences nor interruptions. PS.... BTW You need to have a little faith in post #10. Edited October 23, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soaring crane Posted October 23, 2013 That's sort of what I was looking for. A more clear, scientific explanation. I doubt that many people have this depth of understanding but I figured it was worth a try. Somebody might have at least a theory. I mentioned a book a few posts back Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) I mentioned a book a few posts back Yes... in fact, I am surprised by anyone who claims to be involved in energy work but does not know this or any of his books. They are really the best starting point, IMO, for anyone. We are all fingers pointing... edit: If any PM me their email, I will gladly send an early and brief book of his in pdf... unless someone tells me how to upload here. Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming-Chi-Kung-Health-and-Martial-Arts.pdf Edited October 23, 2013 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Experience is what matters. Whatever we think or write or understand is not it. Chapter I, for the theorists... Stand baby! Edited October 23, 2013 by steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 23, 2013 Middle Dan Tian... It is time someone spoke up for this runt ! Let me do a bit of that. MDT is the seat of "selfhood," one's ability to maintain a coherent and consistent experience of "me" instead of, e.g., multiple personalities, or some other affliction that robs one of this -- e.g. senility where one might be forgetting one's own name, or large chunks of one's own life (such as having had children, or else interchanging or blending into one family members of different generations, e.g. father and husband, etc.. ) MDT provides the "glue" that holds assorted facets and aspects of one's sense of his or her own personhood together. Hanging in the vicinity of the solar plexus, it also provides the greater connection of this "self" with the sun and its energies and spirits. When it "speaks," it's like a sunny day inside. But it can get "obscured by clouds" for long periods of time -- if it is, people tend to be "lost in a fog" as to who they are. This is just a glimpse of course... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SonOfTheGods Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) A concept. Autopsy- performed. "I am going to reach my hand in and pull out or point to you where/what the ACTUAl dan tien is. Where/what is he/she pulling out or pointing to in the cadaver? If it is not in "there"- physically, and CAN BE PROVEN- it is Hypothetical = concept. "IF" it is in the "spiritual body" it is a concept. sometimes one can find the true answer by eliminating what it "is not" same principle with "Chakras" Edited October 24, 2013 by SonOfTheGods Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) hmmm............I wouldn't even call "dan tien" a concept. It is only a name given to an imaginary location on the body for the convenience of description. Hence, we have the upper, middle and lower Dan Tien. Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 24, 2013 hmmm............ I wouldn't even call "dan tien" a concept. It is only a name given to an imaginary location on the body for the convenience of description. Hence, we have the upper, middle and lower Dan Tien. My direct perceptions informed me of the existence of my dantiens before I knew anything theoretical on the subject. A phenomenon known as "ChiDragon," however, the same perceptions can't distinguish from a computer program launched by some anti-taoist subversive organization for the purpose of continuously compromising taoist discussions at the forum. Honestly, I would be unable to tell if it is a name given to an "imaginary" entity or a "real" one, nor determine the nature and goals of such entity with any certainty. It could be just an impossible poster, a real person. But it could also be a paid agent of a subversive anti-taoist organization, or even a computer virus. How would you go about proving, in the absence of direct personal experience, that "ChiDragon" is not imaginary? 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) "ChiDragon" is not imaginary? LOL.......You are talking to him online. Are you talking to dan tien also....??? Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 24, 2013 LOL....... You are talking to him online. Are you talking to dan tien also....??? __/\__ A computer can be easily programmed to say this. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted October 24, 2013 I think the problem is in the approach. Most people start with what is actually a 2-dimensional concept of Dan Tian or Chakras (illustrations they have seen in a book or a diagram somewhere). Then as they practice it becomes more tangible, more 3-dimensional, i.e. their locations within the "body" become more tangible. So one might feel/sense pulsations etc (seemingly physical). Then with more refinement, the energetic aspect of these become more pronounced. They start taking on certain energetic vibrational frequencies...start becoming less static. Upon further refinement they simultaneously bridge the physical, energetic, emotional and psychological. But they are not 3-dimensional anymore...they are multi-dimensional (since what dimension do emotions and the mind exist in...time, space, space in time, etc?) 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goldleaf Posted October 24, 2013 Three factors influence one's centre of gravity: his state of mind, his energy balance, and his physical position. Theoretically, even when a person is physically well balanced, but if his mind is so powerful that he can focus a lot of energy to a finger tip, then his centre of gravity is at the finger tip. But in practice and for most people, it is his physical position that determines where his centre of gravity is located. If a person stands upright and is perfectly relaxed, even if he is untrained in any art, his centre of gravity is naturally focused at a point about two or three inches below his navel, at a vital point called qihai, or “sea of energy”. It is so called because his qi (chi) or vital energy is focused there naturally. This qihai vital point is often also called dan-tian, which means “elixir field”. His shen, which is spirit or consciousness, may also be focused there. That is why some spiritual disciplines regard this vital point as the spiritual centre too. Taken from http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html#cog Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) . Edited October 24, 2013 by Taomeow Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Tantien Level 4 Edited October 24, 2013 by Dorian Black 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 24, 2013 an "imaginary" entity or a "real" one, Yang in his Embryonic Breathing book (P. 122) talks of the false and real dan tian. JoeBlast said this in another thread to explain it (and there is a picture on one of the pages) http://thetaobums.com/topic/24169-lower-dan-tian-heat-gfm-vs-embryonic-breathing/ False vs real are simply two different locations. The "False" (Qihai, cv6) is labeled such because since it is relatively external and "on the stomach musculotendonal structure" therefore it has no real ability to store charge like the "real" dantien does. The location of the real is behind cv6 from front to back in proportion of 3 to 7, but is generally a "central" location. Being in the middle of the gut, it has capacity to store charge. Focusing on the false will help motivate qi but it is not the same motivation you get from focusing on the real location. The real location is something you can meditate on, abide in...get the muscle memory of the motions built up then you can just sit there and have the awareness watch...and shine with...the motions. It will more readily flow through to core from there, whereas the qihai is a...I'd almost say a more martial application. And another thread: http://thetaobums.com/topic/18168-that-tan-tien-thing/ 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 24, 2013 What exactly is a dan tien? I know the three dan tiens are major energy centers in the body (LDT, MDT, and UDT) but physically what are these centers? Are they glands, groups of nerve fibers, etc.? Anyone have a concrete understanding of what it is? The only thing I've been able to find are abstract explanations. Here we go, again, with another round at it...!!! Did you see what I meant......??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted October 24, 2013 Yang further describes how the intestines are long conductive tissue between lining, water, etc... all to act like a storage battery... and that the UDT and LDT are connected via the thrusting vessel (some will say the Tai Ji Pole). This allows the 'two brains' to communicate with the UDT able to be like an EMF, generate a force with the mind. See: http://books.google.com/books/about/Qigong_meditation.html?id=sJsTAQAAMAAJ 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 24, 2013 Did you see what I meant......??? If you clarify what you mean, and if that happens to be on topic, go for it - otherwise, all this sounds like is a continuation of the bickering. If you dont have a sense of the concept being discussed, why do you feel the need to be so involved in this discussion? If you're referring to dantiens as mere concepts and ideas, all that is telling the reader is you have not done the requisite work to have 1) attained enough stillness to create an optimal signal to noise ratio (e.g 'signal' being the physiospiritual energy-node-vortex at the energy center in question, 'noise' being any other of the body-mind-etc signals;) and 2) put in the work on developing said energy center once the signal has been identified so as to significantly increase the scalar potential to the point where you know how to also vector it. I'd love to have some conversation with Ed Witten about M theory, but cripes I could NOT get into detail with him on the subject. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KenBrace Posted October 24, 2013 hmmm............ I wouldn't even call "dan tien" a concept. It is only a name given to an imaginary location on the body for the convenience of description. Hence, we have the upper, middle and lower Dan Tien. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the dan tiens are simply locations, but although I respect your opinion I disagree and if you believe that there's not much point in continuing to post on this thread. The dan tiens are things and the point of this thread was too try and gain a more concrete, scientific understanding of what exactly they are. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
