What exactly is a dan tien?

[寒月 Hanyue]

A dantien is a transition point from one "system of heavens" to the next, similar to a stargate if you will, or a wormhole, a vortex that can manifest or unmanifest, both connecting and disconnecting realms of various taoist heavens.

 

Ah, shiiit....cats outta da bag now

 

Edited October 25, 2013 by snowmonki

[Taomeow]

LOL!

[ChiDragon]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the dan tiens are simply locations, .....

......The only thing I've been able to find are abstract explanations.

 

People....

 

To those whom might concern.....

 

Please read, this is English. I was telling him where did I get the idea why the dan tien is a location or get the locations established so we can move forward.

 

Why feeding him more with abstract explanations.....???

Edited October 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mark Foote]

What exactly is a dan tien? I know the three dan tiens are major energy centers in the body (LDT, MDT, and UDT) but physically what are these centers? Are they glands, groups of nerve fibers, etc.? Anyone have a concrete understanding of what it is? The only thing I've been able to find are abstract explanations.

 

I have a faith in science and a developmental challenge with regard to equalibrioception, proprioception, and the sense of gravity that prevented me for years from appreciating a dan tien in the lower abdomen, or anywhere else.

 

For me, the key point in understanding the wisdom texts of Asia is the notion of trance. A couple of days ago on Brad Warner's blog, somebody posted a quote from the Wikipedia page on Milton Erikson:

 

"Erickson maintained that trance is a common, everyday occurrence. For example, when waiting for buses and trains, reading or listening, or even being involved in strenuous physical exercise, it's quite normal to become immersed in the activity and go into a trance state, removed from any other irrelevant stimuli. These states are so common and familiar that most people do not consciously recognise them as hypnotic phenomena." Wikipedia

 

For me, the fundamental of trance is the movement of breath, and what I have called the experience of relaxed necessity in the movement of breath. Here's part of a post from my own blog:

 

"The aspect of practice I'm concerned with now is Chen Man-ching's assertion that relaxation takes place along the spine from the tailbone to the crown of the head. If I look for three directions right where I am in space, and free right where I am in space to shift and move, sometimes right where I am stays in the lower abdomen and stretches under the pelvis and up the spine, inhaling and exhaling."

 

 

 

(Wowee, I got the picture too! Klamath National Wildlife Refuge, by the way...)

 

The hard part is not getting on the mule, letting the sense of location and the activity develop out of necessity in the movement of breath. Or you could say that's the easy part, because it's just the exercise of the senses that comes naturally in the movement of breath. "

 

"not getting on the mule" is Foyan, the 12th century Chinese Zen master (Bill Porter says it was and is called Zen in some parts of China). Foyan said there were only two sicknesses at his monastery, searching for a mule while riding a mule and riding a mule unable to dismount. He asked, isn't it better, never to mount the mule in the first place?

 

When I say the exercise of the senses, I mean all the senses, including the vestibular sense (equalibrioception), proprioception, and the sense of gravity. The exercise of the senses comes naturally in the movement of breath, yet the sense of self that taomeow referenced is peculiarly linked to the sense of location in space associated with equalibrioception (see the research of Olaf Blanke on OBE experiences). People go nuts if they lose it. The 12th century Zen master Yuanwu similarly pointed to equalibrioception when he advised in a letter, "Be aware of where you really are twenty-four hours a day. You must be most attentive."

 

I believe the state between waking and sleeping, the hypnogogic state, is as easy and everyday as Erikson said it was. Volition or will power can't induce it, but the necessity of an inhalation or exhalation can. That's why Gautama said about trance, "whatever you think it to be, it is other." The experience of the dan-tien is a hynogogic phenomena, a trance phenomena, and that is why you cannot pin it down to an actual physical location.

 

Humble one here on Tao Bums read my piece on Waking Up and Falling Asleep and discovered he could indeed experience his sense of location shifting in his body at 4am while lying in bed unable to sleep. He discovered if he allowed for freedom in his experience of location, he fell asleep. I asked him to try it in the daytime, after he had weeks of successfully returning to sleep at night, and he reported an simple experience of peace.

 

In the same way that humble one was able to induce a hynogogic state (a light sleep, he said, from which he nevertheless awakened refreshed), I can look to my location and the muscles and tendons informing and shifting my sense of location (proprioception) in the movement of breath, and sometimes my location drops behind my waist below the navel and remains there, shifting slightly. The description I like is actually Gautama the Buddha's:

 

“…as a skilled bath-attendant or (bath-attendant) apprentice, having sprinkled bath-powder into a bronze vessel, might knead it while repeatedly sprinkling it with water until the ball of lather had taken up moisture, was drenched with moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out but without any oozing. Even so… does (a person) saturate, permeate, suffuse this very body with the rapture and joy that are born of aloofness; there is no part of (the) whole body that is not suffused with the rapture and joy born of aloofness. While (such a person) is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute, those memories and aspirations that are worldly are got rid of; by getting rid of them, the mind is inwardly settled, calmed, focused, concentrated.”

(MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

 

Equalibrioception, proprioception, and the sense of gravity in the movement of breath; Gautama described his practice before and after his enlightenment as "the intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths", and the induction of the first trance state given above was a natural consequence.

 

My best attempt to put forward the full practice is here, about twenty pages' worth if you have the time.

 

To summarize, don't just do something, sit there.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Mark Foote

[mjjbecker]

 

People....

Please read, this is English. I was telling him where did I get the idea why the dan tien is a location or get the locations established so we can move forward.

 

Why feeding him more with abstract explanations.....???

 

Dumbing things down isn't educating. The OP asked a question and people have kindly spent their time and effort giving him good answers, not just 'primary school picture book and crayon' viewpoints.

 

Students don't learn from being given a few simplistic platitudes, they learn from being pointed in the right direct and being encouraged to go down the correct path. Sometimes that encouragement only needs be gentle. Sometimes it requires a hard kick up the ass, perhaps with the prescription being repeated more than once as needed.

 

If you find these things hard to grasp, then you can continue to choose to be ignorant, or you can attempt to bring your level up to the point where you can understand what is being discussed. Learning is moving forward, not choosing to remain ignorant. Unfortunately based on past evidence you'll probably choose to stay at the picture book and crayon level.

 

I've started to see the real benefit of the ignore user function.

[ChiDragon]

Please go over this seven page thread and see what was going on.....Please again...!!! Thanks.

Edited October 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

Please go over this seven page thread and see what was going on.....Please again...!!! Thanks.

dude, enough of these posts

[ChiDragon]

It is fine with me.

[Iskote]

That's sort of what I was looking for. A more clear, scientific explanation. I doubt that many people have this depth of understanding but I figured it was worth a try. Somebody might have at least a theory.

KenBrace, I think what you are essentially saying, whether you may realize it or not, is I really only want to hear answers which fit in with my preconceptions and beliefs. Don't think I am singling you out, because I am not. This is human nature. We all are very much inclined to do this with pretty much everything in life. However taking this approach in matters such as this is really about as unscientific as can be. Sure in physical science we may start with a certain hypothesis and then try to conduct experiments to try to establish if the hypothesis holds up or not to experimental results, but in the area of what I will term esoteric arts, starting with a hypothesis and preconceived ideas is actually starting out by placing limitations on yourself. In this area of exploration the connection between mind and energy and experience is very much more apparent and manifest, so any preconceived notions and beliefs you are starting out with are essentially placing blinders and limitations on yourself right out of the gate to a great degree.

 

A teacher of so called esoteric arts would traditionally carefully choose a student before teaching certain things, and they would only teach a particular student something when the student was capable and ready to learn what was being passed to them. There are many factors involved here. The teacher is actually only providing guidance and assistance in various ways to the student who actually really 'learns' through their own direct experience. A student who has many preconceived ideas and beliefs will not be capable of learning certain things, so the teacher may pass over such people completely, and this may mean that certain arts may not get passed on at all to most people because most people are just too full of preconceived ideas and beliefs. A teacher may choose to take a different approach in such a case and devise ways to try to get more promising students to start gaining more awareness about their preconceptions and beliefs, so that they can start working on reducing their influence and on dropping them where needed. The expression about needing to start with an empty cup is more than just a cute concept.

 

Many concepts in the esoteric arts are either not ever discussed or written about at all, or if they are written about it may often be done in very symbolic or very vague terms. In part this may have been done to keep certain things secret, but a lot of this is done out of necessity. Writing in a very vague way helps to ensure that potential students have less 'things' for the mind to latch onto to form preconceptions and beliefs. Also, many things just cannot be expressed in words in any real meaningful way. The science of esoteric arts is a science driven by direct personal experience, but all personal experience is also very much colored by our preconceptions and beliefs. Without first being able to recognize our many preconceptions and beliefs within our self so that we can then start to reduce their strong influence on our perception, we are only capable of exploring our own self created limitations and through very colored sunglasses at that.

 

There is also another important factor relating to this. If we try to practice esoteric arts without being aware of the above, we also increase the chance of causing problems and harm to our self by our own ignorance. Of course a teacher or anyone can't just simply point things out and people will just get it and understand it and be able to put it all into action. If it were really that easy we would all be buddhas by now. If certain teachers choose to only teach certain people or certain groups of people, it may be because cultural or other biases tend to make certain groups of people more open to certain things, and other groups of people much less open to certain things, amongst other factors. There are no hard and fast rules in such things however.

 

Certain things can be discussed and debated till the cows come home, but our ideas, preconceptions, and beliefs are walls and ceilings and hallways and TV screens which only limit us.

 

Of course, just my two cents' worth, as they say...

Edited October 25, 2013 by Iskote

[joeblast]

It is fine with me.

Another thing you're missing - its not fine with just about everyone else participating in this thread. I recuse myself from moderating you, I'll let the other mods discuss your trolling.

[ChiDragon]

dude, enough of these posts

I only said it was fine to take the hint. That was what I meant. What is wrong with that....???

Edited October 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

*******MODERATOR REPLY*******

 

******* Moderator Reply*******

edit

[Mark Foote]

KenBrace, I think what you are essentially saying, whether you may realize it or not, is I really only want to hear answers which fit in with my preconceptions and beliefs. Don't think I am singling you out, because I am not. This is human nature. We all are very much inclined to do this with pretty much everything in life. However taking this approach in matters such as this is really about as unscientific as can be. Sure in physical science we may start with a certain hypothesis and then try to conduct experiments to try to establish if the hypothesis holds up or not to experimental results, but in the area of what I will term esoteric arts, starting with a hypothesis and preconceived ideas is actually starting out by placing limitations on yourself. In this area of exploration the connection between mind and energy and experience is very much more apparent and manifest, so any preconceived notions and beliefs you are starting out with are essentially placing blinders and limitations on yourself right out of the gate to a great degree...

 

Here is the conclusion of the blog post I quoted earlier:

 

"To believe in an understanding of practice is not practice, and yet, the belief is a part of practice; the belief causes me to act and carries the process of understanding forward, as I experience the result of my belief in the absence of volition."

 

There's a famous conversation in the Zen literature where a disciple responds to the question, "is there no practice?", with "it isn't that there's no practice, it's just that practice is undefiled". As far as I can tell, this means the practice that occurs willfully, through the exercise of volition or choice, is not the real practice. It's the Buddha that comes through the back door.

 

My statement about the role of belief in practice I came to with a little luck and a lot of help from friends on TTB and elsewhere. What I'm saying is, you cannot ignore your own belief structure, and you can't control it. You can't wave a magic wand and make yourself believe in an Eastern mythology of practice; their belief structure allows them to let go of volitive activity, enter a state between waking and sleeping, and allow the necessity in the relaxed movement of breath to manifest in the senses in a way that the Eastern mythology describes quite well, and the effects are real and demonstrable. As a Westerner, I had to find a description (a Western mythology, if you like!) that I could believe in, and as I said what I really believe at the subconscious level is actually out of my control.

 

I lucked out, and now I can experience something that corresponds to the lower dan tien; I experience it as a sense of my location in three-dimensional space (equalibrioception) that is free to shift and move as the place and momentum of the parts of the body enter in (proprioception) along with the sense of weight. The practice is in the movement of breath, and it feels like this:

 

“How beautiful, the snow falling,”

Layman Pang says.

The young monk looks up.

“Oh, yeah, it’s snowing.”

“It only falls on one spot,” Pang adds.

But it’s falling everywhere!” the monk protests.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm still on page 4 of reading the thread, but will add:

 

would the world be a better place if it was written:

 

蛋dan 天tian

Egg (of) Heaven

 

b'kaaaaw

[Ya Mu]

Finally read this thread.... wow....

First off, the dan tian is located exactly....just kidding!

 

Just wanted to say thanks to mjjbecker, dawei, snowmonki, iskote, for really good info.

And thanks to Taomeow for speaking on the multidimensionality of the energy centers. When I talk about this people look at me like "Huh?" (I have to check and see if there is a bird on my head); so good to see it here.

 

OP,

I believe that no words can properly describe Dan Tian and that only the experience of a developed Dan Tian has any meaning. The multidimensional aspect is infinite.

So the answer as to "what exactly is a dan tian"? It is what you make it and make of it. Use it, exercise it, take it out for a walk, a spin through the galaxy, let it shine ... that is what it is.

[寒月 Hanyue]

It is what you make it and make of it. Use it, exercise it, take it out for a walk, a spin through the galaxy, let it shine ... that is what it is.

 

[exorcist_1699]

Never is dantian a concept of TCM , and we should always keep in mind about its difference with an acupuncture point.

If an acupuncture point is a specific , quite precise point at which we insert a needle into so as to get qi, then dantian is an indefinite area , its appearance always spirit-related ; a place our mind better not presupposes where it is , what it is ..

In fact, never should we presuppose how big , how deep , where dantian is for dantian is like some kind of ' white hole ' in the human ' micro-cosmos' ; although we can measure the size of a physical white hole, maybe based on its mass and density (?), hardly can we measure the size of the dantian for whenever it appears, we enter the world of primordial qi in which size , time sequence , order of things ..is governed by another set of rules. This is why when talking about dantian, the Taoist classics in many cases describe it as " 其大無外, 其小無內" ( " so big that it has no boundary, so small that it has no substance/ singularity " ; these descriptions are , sadly always mistaken by some shallow mind , as some kind of relativism .. ) ; this is why foretelling those not-yet-happened is possible...

Edited October 28, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

[joeblast]

*******MODERATOR REPLY*******

The OP asks a simple question "What exactly is a dan tien?" the OP also states he already knows they are 3 energy centers and he even

says LDT ,MDT, and UDT which gives good indication that he is aware of the locations. and he never asks Where are the dan tiens?

post # 2 , which is the very first response to the OP question , is in my view a flippant remark by chidragon.

post #5 attempts to trivialize the OP question without addressing the question.-post by chidragon

post #10 attempts and suggests that the OP rephrase the question, this is a derailing tactic imo.putting focus on a question not asked and repeatedly answering the question that was NOT asked. post by chidragon

in post #19 Dawei points out that the question has nothing to do with the location of dan tiens.

and in the next post # 20 chidragon , well actually i am at a loss for explanation for this post by chidragon-BUT it does follow the pattern of derailing away from the OP question.

in post #21 by the originator of the question, he explains to chidragon that he, the one who asked the question, is not looking for simply the position/location of dan tiens. this should have clarified the matter entirely.

so, posts #23 by chidragon "Okay!

In this case, then you just have kicked me out of the conversation literally......

this reveals that chidragon understands that he has not been on topic and he gracefully bows out.

however on post #25 ken brace opens the door for chidragon, by asking chidragon a direct question.

so there is a brief exchange between ken brace and chidragon from posts 25-28, that appear that ken brace is not wanting chidragon to leave the conversation.

on post #31 by baguakicksass, a most excellent post/illustration , i just wanted to note this, it has nothing to do with the moderation of the thread, but i really liked that post.

post #33 kinda blew my mind when chidragon says "Edited to correct grammar. I am still learning....!!"

wtf even? on post #20 wasnt this the same chidragon that was giving us all an english lesson?

post # 35 AGAIN, chidragon tells everyone where the dan tiens are located,

hmmm, ok on post #39 Dawei basically outlines in one post, what i have been constructing here and there follow some posts of substance until we get to post # 58 where when chidragon takes credit for more-pie-guys post and then he suggests to kenbrace that the conversation stay just between them and without any external influences nor interruptions.

and post #73 by chidragon is a redundant point of emphasis that certainly foreshadowed his attempts to derail this thread.

post #76 by ken brace is a (too) polite attempt to (too)subtly hint to chidragon, that it is the other posters who are offering quality posts to the OP

post # 77 by chidragon is not only ludicous in its content it is also flagrant disrespect to the other posters and a violation of ToS

posts 85, 86, 87 again answer the question of Where the dan tiens are located.

i do appreciate the civility of the participants of this thread and their restraint and patience in how they chose to deal with the disruptive and numbing postings of chidragon.

post #93 again advises the OP to posts 85,86, and 87

on post #107, i took chidragon's advice and reviewed this thread.

i found some excellent postings and also attempts to derail, which , after all , we do find this on TTB, of having to sift thru much repeated petty drivel to find the nuggets of value. post #112 is telling us that no matter what, chidragon is going to insist to have the last word. there was no report filed by the originator of the thread complaining of the trolling behavior, there were reports from other members. we have all seen worse instances of off-topic derailing here on the board. still, it is frustrating for some of us to have to drudge our way thru this type of conduct of a very few members here. i do not wish to go back and count the number of posts that said basically the exact same thing by one member. but it is obvious that his intent was to impose an off-topic derail and belittle and borderline taunt the rest of the participants of this thread.

******* Moderator Reply*******

 

 

Let Nature take its course.

[dawei]

*******MODERATOR REPLY*******

The OP asks a simple question "What exactly is a dan tien?" the OP also states he already knows they are 3 energy centers and he even

says LDT ,MDT, and UDT which gives good indication that he is aware of the locations. and he never asks Where are the dan tiens?

post # 2 , which is the very first response to the OP question , is in my view a flippant remark by chidragon.

post #5 attempts to trivialize the OP question without addressing the question.-post by chidragon

post #10 attempts and suggests that the OP rephrase the question, this is a derailing tactic imo.putting focus on a question not asked and repeatedly answering the question that was NOT asked. post by chidragon

in post #19 Dawei points out that the question has nothing to do with the location of dan tiens.

and in the next post # 20 chidragon , well actually i am at a loss for explanation for this post by chidragon-BUT it does follow the pattern of derailing away from the OP question.

in post #21 by the originator of the question, he explains to chidragon that he, the one who asked the question, is not looking for simply the position/location of dan tiens. this should have clarified the matter entirely.

so, posts #23 by chidragon "Okay!

In this case, then you just have kicked me out of the conversation literally......

this reveals that chidragon understands that he has not been on topic and he gracefully bows out.

however on post #25 ken brace opens the door for chidragon, by asking chidragon a direct question.

so there is a brief exchange between ken brace and chidragon from posts 25-28, that appear that ken brace is not wanting chidragon to leave the conversation.

on post #31 by baguakicksass, a most excellent post/illustration , i just wanted to note this, it has nothing to do with the moderation of the thread, but i really liked that post.

post #33 kinda blew my mind when chidragon says "Edited to correct grammar. I am still learning....!!"

wtf even? on post #20 wasnt this the same chidragon that was giving us all an english lesson?

post # 35 AGAIN, chidragon tells everyone where the dan tiens are located,

hmmm, ok on post #39 Dawei basically outlines in one post, what i have been constructing here and there follow some posts of substance until we get to post # 58 where when chidragon takes credit for more-pie-guys post and then he suggests to kenbrace that the conversation stay just between them and without any external influences nor interruptions.

and post #73 by chidragon is a redundant point of emphasis that certainly foreshadowed his attempts to derail this thread.

post #76 by ken brace is a (too) polite attempt to (too)subtly hint to chidragon, that it is the other posters who are offering quality posts to the OP

post # 77 by chidragon is not only ludicous in its content it is also flagrant disrespect to the other posters and a violation of ToS

posts 85, 86, 87 again answer the question of Where the dan tiens are located.

i do appreciate the civility of the participants of this thread and their restraint and patience in how they chose to deal with the disruptive and numbing postings of chidragon.

post #93 again advises the OP to posts 85,86, and 87

on post #107, i took chidragon's advice and reviewed this thread.

i found some excellent postings and also attempts to derail, which , after all , we do find this on TTB, of having to sift thru much repeated petty drivel to find the nuggets of value. post #112 is telling us that no matter what, chidragon is going to insist to have the last word. there was no report filed by the originator of the thread complaining of the trolling behavior, there were reports from other members. we have all seen worse instances of off-topic derailing here on the board. still, it is frustrating for some of us to have to drudge our way thru this type of conduct of a very few members here. i do not wish to go back and count the number of posts that said basically the exact same thing by one member. but it is obvious that his intent was to impose an off-topic derail and belittle and borderline taunt the rest of the participants of this thread.

******* Moderator Reply*******

POST 119: A snub to moderators

[Mark Foote]

 

A SUB TO MODERATORS (?!)

[KenBrace]

Finally read this thread.... wow....

First off, the dan tian is located exactly....just kidding!

 

Just wanted to say thanks to mjjbecker, dawei, snowmonki, iskote, for really good info.

And thanks to Taomeow for speaking on the multidimensionality of the energy centers. When I talk about this people look at me like "Huh?" (I have to check and see if there is a bird on my head); so good to see it here.

 

OP,

I believe that no words can properly describe Dan Tian and that only the experience of a developed Dan Tian has any meaning. The multidimensional aspect is infinite.

So the answer as to "what exactly is a dan tian"? It is what you make it and make of it. Use it, exercise it, take it out for a walk, a spin through the galaxy, let it shine ... that is what it is.

 

I believe that everything in this universe has a hard science to it and has an equally real existence as anything else. We tend to label some things as supernatural, magic, abstract, etc. but it is only because we do not yet have a clear, scientific understanding of it. Take light for example. At one time people only had abstract or indirect explanations of light when in reality there is a hard science to it. I was simply wondering if anyone had at least a theory on what exactly a dan tien, or chakra for that matter, was.

[9th]

I believe that everything in this universe has a hard science to it and has an equally real existence as anything else. We tend to label some things as supernatural, magic, abstract, etc. but it is only because we do not yet have a clear, scientific understanding of it. Take light for example. At one time people only had abstract or indirect explanations of light when in reality there is a hard science to it. I was simply wondering if anyone had at least a theory on what exactly a dan tien, or chakra for that matter, was.

 

the iron ox plows the field, planting golden coins

[mjjbecker]

I was simply wondering if anyone had at least a theory on what exactly a dan tien, or chakra for that matter, was.

 

Kostas has written about it from a physics point of view in his books. I don't have them to hand, apart from the Pammachon one (hense the reason I quoted from that). He has a very solid background in hard science (aerospace work can be very unforgiving if you get things wrong...) as well as esoteric experience beyond the vast majority claiming expertise on such subjects (certainly not limited to a certain school and its method...)

 

The ancients certainly DID have a scientific approach. The problem we have is that very few people, now, have the actual experience to understand what was being stated. There is therefore a lot of wild speculation, with some of the worst being attempts to apply pseudo-scientific theories to these things (people with no experience of high level energy practices and a middle school understanding of physics and biology).

 

Why do those who know usually stay out of sight? Look at history, complete with its periodic purges (murdering sprees) of 'enlightened' individuals. Frankly, just look at some of the behaviour on this forum.

 

Lunch beckons, which is an infinitely more rewarding prospect that some of the replies that are likely to follow.

[Mark Foote]

the iron ox plows the field, planting golden coins

 

from the Wikipedia article on Milton Erikson, M.D.:

 

"Erickson maintained that it was not possible consciously to instruct the unconscious mind, and that authoritarian suggestions were likely to be met with resistance. The unconscious mind responds to openings, opportunities, metaphors, symbols, and contradictions. Effective hypnotic suggestion, then, should be "artfully vague", leaving space for the subject to fill in the gaps with their own unconscious understandings - even if they do not consciously grasp what is happening. The skilled hypnotherapist constructs these gaps of meaning in a way most suited to the individual subject - in a way which is most likely to produce the desired change."

 

Am I being too direct if I say that ch'i is a phenomena experienced in the hypnogogic state, the state between waking and sleeping, the hypnotic or trance state? More from Wikipedia on Erikson:

 

"Erickson maintained that trance is a common, everyday occurrence. For example, when waiting for buses and trains, reading or listening, or even being involved in strenuous physical exercise, it's quite normal to become immersed in the activity and go into a trance state, removed from any other irrelevant stimuli. These states are so common and familiar that most people do not consciously recognise them as hypnotic phenomena."

 

Not even acknowledged masters of martial arts, who talk about ch'i and the dan t'ien as though

everyone could produce and sustain a state of absorption in themselves the way the masters can.

 

I should add that in my experience, the kind of everyday trance Erikson is talking about doesn't dull the senses, but in fact heightens them (presuming I am unattached).

Edited October 30, 2013 by Mark Foote