KenBrace

What exactly is a dan tien?

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What exactly is a dan tien? I know the three dan tiens are major energy centers in the body (LDT, MDT, and UDT) but physically what are these centers? Are they glands, groups of nerve fibers, etc.? Anyone have a concrete understanding of what it is? The only thing I've been able to find are abstract explanations.

My first experience with my LDT was completely out of the blue when I was something like 15 or 16.

I was skiing, it was late in the afternoon on a weekday and I was way out from the main base. I was dressed in only a light coat and ski pants because it was a fairly warm day (maybe 20 degrees). The sun went down and I started to head in, but I had to go up and down several lifts to make it back. About midway back I was getting really cold and knew how close I was to hyperthermia.

Just about the time I was becoming very concerned my LDT turned on - this ball of heat started to form - bigger than a golf ball - within minutes I was warm - warm from the tips of my fingers to the tips of my toes - both of which had been close to frostbit. My earlobs were hot and I was not wearing a hat. At the base of the last lift up I was steaming - you could see it.

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I believe that everything in this universe has a hard science to it and has an equally real existence as anything else. We tend to label some things as supernatural, magic, abstract, etc. but it is only because we do not yet have a clear, scientific understanding of it. Take light for example. At one time people only had abstract or indirect explanations of light when in reality there is a hard science to it. I was simply wondering if anyone had at least a theory on what exactly a dan tien, or chakra for that matter, was.

The type of clarity that you seek and the arguement or belief you put forth has valor but the depth and magnitude of what you seek to label and dissect and define would make the ocean seem like a drop.

 

They are energy centers and distribution centers and conduits - they correspond to energies from within and

without but that then is also an illusion.

Much of this is like the absurd discussions we have of God - a bit premature.

 

They can change dramatically, both in size and power - dramatically like Kundalini blowing you into the sky - like poping on power that is completely beyond anything you have ever read.

 

They have scanners in them, they can feel from great distances, the are affected by the cosmos - just how do you pin down these centers to a nice clean and tidy labeling and shelving.

 

Energy centers, awareness centers, consciousness, light centers?

 

The pictures of them are fairly accurate, Leadbeaters books on Chakras were excellent on this, some of the new videos are extremetly good.

 

Science is not close to much of anything - they are finally starting to comprehend this - and it is coming out in the form of even more fantastic egoism and puffery. Science for us here has its greatest and most sane attraction in that at its core it says - test it, don't just believe it - come to know it - not as a dogma, but really learn and keep on learning.

Socrates tells us - the only thing I know is that I know nothing.

We transcend everything forever - what we know now we transcend.

 

They are energy centers.

Edited by Spotless
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I believe that everything in this universe has a hard science to it and has an equally real existence as anything else. We tend to label some things as supernatural, magic, abstract, etc. but it is only because we do not yet have a clear, scientific understanding of it. Take light for example. At one time people only had abstract or indirect explanations of light when in reality there is a hard science to it. I was simply wondering if anyone had at least a theory on what exactly a dan tien, or chakra for that matter, was.

Hmmm...

 

Science is good at constructing models which are simplifications that do a better job of describing/predicting the behavioral characteristics of physical processes than the previous models.

 

This particular thread has input -- from my personal knowledge -- from a chemist, a biologist, a physicist and three engineers (I'm sure there are several more "hard science"-types posting, too).

 

Play a game with me for a moment, KenBrace, if you will. Take a minute or two and explain light in layman's terms, in your own words. You can use Google or Wikipedia or whatever, just make sure it is a 20th century or later scientific understanding, OK?

 

Or, if that seems daunting, try one of these highly narrowed cases:

  • Where does light come from?
  • Where does it go?
  • What does "the speed of light" mean?
  • How does a mirror work?
  • How does a light bulb work?
  • What is fire?

Pick any of them, then I'll ask a simple question or two and we'll see how quickly we get to "I don't know..."

 

:)

 

Don't worship at the altar of Science.

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One should never regard science as a conclusion or set of conclusions.

 

It is only a process by which we make better paradigms as more evidence becomes available to us.

 

To often both scientists and non-scientists forget this and cling to science as though current scientific paradigms are infallible and can never be replaced with more accurate paradigms.

 

As to the rest of your argument:

 

There is much we don't understand, in the grand scheme of things our science and our scientific paradigms are just monkey paintings on a cave wall. If we understood reality to the degree we pretend we do, right now we would be immortal Gods.

 

Assuming we don't kill ourselves off first, we will reach a point where we have a deeper understanding of reality and technology beyond your wildest dreams.

 

Science is the best process at getting ever closer to the truth that we have come up with yet, and it has helped us burn away delusions better than any other system I am aware of.

 

Not having all the answers isn't the fault of science as a process though, it is lack of determination, vision, and intelligence on our part. We are too busy watching America's top model, honey boo boo, and duck dynasty to care about advancing our understanding of reality.

 

We are just a bunch of ignorant monkeys flinging poo.

 

 

 

Hmmm...

 

Science is good at constructing models which are simplifications that do a better job of describing/predicting the behavioral characteristics of physical processes than the previous models.

 

This particular thread has input -- from my personal knowledge -- from a chemist, a biologist, a physicist and three engineers (I'm sure there are several more "hard science"-types posting, too).

 

Play a game with me for a moment, KenBrace, if you will. Take a minute or two and explain light in layman's terms, in your own words. You can use Google or Wikipedia or whatever, just make sure it is a 20th century or later scientific understanding, OK?

 

Or, if that seems daunting, try one of these highly narrowed cases:

  • Where does light come from?
  • Where does it go?
  • What does "the speed of light" mean?
  • How does a mirror work?
  • How does a light bulb work?
  • What is fire?

Pick any of them, then I'll ask a simple question or two and we'll see how quickly we get to "I don't know..."

 

:)

 

Don't worship at the altar of Science.

Edited by More_Pie_Guy
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Hmmm...

 

Science is good at constructing models which are simplifications that do a better job of describing/predicting the behavioral characteristics of physical processes than the previous models.

 

This particular thread has input -- from my personal knowledge -- from a chemist, a biologist, a physicist and three engineers (I'm sure there are several more "hard science"-types posting, too).

 

Play a game with me for a moment, KenBrace, if you will. Take a minute or two and explain light in layman's terms, in your own words. You can use Google or Wikipedia or whatever, just make sure it is a 20th century or later scientific understanding, OK?

 

Or, if that seems daunting, try one of these highly narrowed cases:

 

  • Where does light come from?
  • Where does it go?
  • What does "the speed of light" mean?
  • How does a mirror work?
  • How does a light bulb work?
  • What is fire?
Pick any of them, then I'll ask a simple question or two and we'll see how quickly we get to "I don't know..."

 

:)

 

Don't worship at the altar of Science.

Unless I'm behind the time modern science still hasn't completely figured out what light is but they have a much better understanding then what the ancient romans might have had.

 

From what I've learned light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. Some say that light is a particle while others say it is simply a wave. Sound is just a vibration cased by energy. Some view light this way. Others view light as a particle like air. I'm not sure how correct I am but this is what I remember from Physical Science. I'm taking Physics at the momment and might have a better understanding by the end of the year.

 

Ancient people might descibed light this way; light is an existence that allows sight. Just shooting out an idea of what they might have said but you get the idea. Their description would have been abstract and would not have given you a near as concrete understanding as modern science could. When it comes to things like yin chi, modern science hasn't even touched the serface. Eventually however science might be able to explain it almost completely and the understanding will no longer be abstract.

Edited by KenBrace

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I applaud you for taking a physics class! Seriously. Few people do and even fewer come away from one with any meaningful understandings. I would encourage you to resist the temptation (which will be pushed throughout the class) that a logical and systematic approach equates to concrete answers, though.

 

I was initially drawn to the discipline because I wanted answers but by my sophomore year I had come to understand that the answers are far less important than learning how to ask the questions. By graduate school, I realized "the answers" help inform the next set of questions and that practical applications are gravy, much as I later learned that energetic phenomena and abilities are really a tangent from cultivation...

 

The student of natural philosophy realizes that onions and parfaits and ogres have a lot in common with scientific discovery -- especially onions.

 

:)

 

BTW, do you think your "ancient roman" description of light would have been more beneficial to an ancient Roman or your more modern attempt? Read back over them and tell me which seems more "concrete" -- the one that says "it is that which allows sight" or the one that says "it's some kinda electromagnetic radiation (whatever that is) and might be like a wave or might be like a particle or might be like neither or might be like both but we haven't really figured it out?"

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I applaud you for taking a physics class! Seriously. Few people do and even fewer come away from one with any meaningful understandings. I would encourage you to resist the temptation (which will be pushed throughout the class) that a logical and systematic approach equates to concrete answers, though.

 

I was initially drawn to the discipline because I wanted answers but by my sophomore year I had come to understand that the answers are far less important than learning how to ask the questions. By graduate school, I realized "the answers" help inform the next set of questions and that practical applications are gravy, much as I later learned that energetic phenomena and abilities are really a tangent from cultivation...

 

The student of natural philosophy realizes that onions and parfaits and ogres have a lot in common with scientific discovery -- especially onions.

 

:)

 

BTW, do you think your "ancient roman" description of light would have been more beneficial to an ancient Roman or your more modern attempt? Read back over them and tell me which seems more "concrete" -- the one that says "it is that which allows sight" or the one that says "it's some kinda electromagnetic radiation (whatever that is) and might be like a wave or might be like a particle or might be like neither or might be like both but we haven't really figured it out?"

 

Haha I know what you're saying, but think of my question this way... Lift up your shirt and look at your lower abdomen. Your LDT is right there. It's as real as the muscle, fat, etc. right below your skin. But how does it exist? There's just a bunch of liquid and tissue there. It's real but what is it? What is it made of? Energy is stored there but what is it being stored in? Is it a group of concentrated nerve fibers? MPG's answer makes sense. Perhaps the dan tiens and chakras are apart of the spiritual body and only visible to a person who can see the yin aspect of reality. Still physical and real but not physical existence to people who only see the yang aspect of reality.

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You are under the impression that LDT is a "thing" and that energy is also a "thing." I think both impressions are mistaken. Science cannot touch this (yet) because science currently denies the idea of an energy-body or of higher levels of existence or of multidimensionality outside of the subatomic scale or of Light (energy encompasses but is not encompassed by our current definitions, despite the forced admission that we cannot account for the overwhelming majority of the energy & matter we know must be "out there...")

 

The real point, though, is that the intellectual pursuit will not gain you an understanding of that which is not intellectually understood -- but personal experience will.

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You are under the impression that LDT is a "thing" and that energy is also a "thing." I think both impressions are mistaken. Science cannot touch this (yet) because science currently denies the idea of an energy-body or of higher levels of existence or of multidimensionality outside of the subatomic scale or of Light (energy encompasses but is not encompassed by our current definitions, despite the forced admission that we cannot account for the overwhelming majority of the energy & matter we know must be "out there...")

 

The real point, though, is that the intellectual pursuit will not gain you an understanding of that which is not intellectually understood -- but personal experience will.

 

If the LDT was not a thing it wouldn't exist. it can be felt so it is obviously there. Even if it is hard to understand it is still a things that exists and is 100% real.

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If the LDT was not a thing it wouldn't exist. it can be felt so it is obviously there. Even if it is hard to understand it is still a things that exists and is 100% real.

 

What we sense (and at least believe), is that there is something instead of nothing :D

 

Again, the already mentioned Yang's Embryonic Breathing book is good for some science background; and his The Root of Chinese Qigong is much better if one doesn't want the embryonic aspect of the book, and it is much more well rounded.

 

I'll share some from JJ's Medical Qigong book:

"The Lower Dantian is considered a center of consciousness. The consciousness of the Lower Dantian is more kinesthetic or physical given its Yin nature and close proximity to the Earth... it is considered the house of physical (kinethetic) communication, awareness, and feelings. The level of awareness referred to as "the intuition of the physical body" or kinethetic communication, is stimulated by the subconscious. The subconscious picks up many signals from the environment that are not processed by the logical mind. These signals can motivate spontaneous body movements and responses and are sometimes referred to as a gut feelings.

 

[Quick Digression]: Those of us who have commented in various threads on Wu Wei and that it is not just thinking you are doing Wu Wei or that you can remove attachments; it is more like being lead by energy impulses as described above. [\Quick Digression]

 

... collect energy in the Lower Dantian, an increased awareness and sensitivity naturally occurs.... to maximize kinetic communication. These are subtle senses that allow Qigong doctors to feel, smell, or hear energetic phenomena as they are released from the diseased tissue of patients.

 

The Lower Dantian sends and receives impulses, records experiences and responds to emotions. Its nerve cells are bathed in and influenced by the same neurotransmitters as the brain. The Lower Dantian's "brain" known as the enteric (intestinal) nervous system, mirrors the body's central nervous system and is a network of 100 million neurons (more than the spinal cord contains... blah blah blah.

 

[Quick Digression]: So why don't all practitioners achieve this sensitivity level of a doctor? They are spending their lifetimes 'breathing' into the dan tian... There is a difference between accumulating breath and Qi into the LDT...

 

I like to say: Less breath and more Qi. That does not mean we breath less; it means the ratio of Qi-to-breath can be increased. The awareness and sensitivity increases sometimes need more focused and trained practice; sitting there and breathing may not create this result. [\Quick Digression]

 

Finally.. a picture of this none-thing:

 

2m4abf8.jpg

 

JJ Book further names these as:

1. The Palace of Jade (Jade Stem or Jade Cave)

2. The official Health Monitor (Kidneys)

3. The minister of the Orchard Terrace

4. The Chamber of Moving Pearls

5. The Minister of House Cleaning (Large Intestines)

6. The Palace of Mystical Spirits (Small Intestines)

7. The Chamber of Mysterious Elixir

8. The Spririt of the Jade Court (Bladder)

9. The Spririt of the Yellow Court (Spleen)

 

And you thought I didn't want to talk 'location' :P

 

In my world: IT is an 'energetic-thing' with a physical location, and acts on and by the physical wiring, energetic stimulus, and spiritual source.

Edited by dawei
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What we sense (and at least believe), is that there is something instead of nothing :D

 

Again, the already mentioned Yang's Embryonic Breathing book is good for some science background; and his The Root of Chinese Qigong is much better if one doesn't want the embryonic aspect of the book, and it is much more well rounded.

 

I'll share some from JJ's Medical Qigong book:

"The Lower Dantian is considered a center of consciousness. The consciousness of the Lower Dantian is more kinesthetic or physical given its Yin nature and close proximity to the Earth... it is considered the house of physical (kinethetic) communication, awareness, and feelings. The level of awareness referred to as "the intuition of the physical body" or kinethetic communication, is stimulated by the subconscious. The subconscious picks up many signals from the environment that are not processed by the logical mind. These signals can motivate spontaneous body movements and responses and are sometimes referred to as a gut feelings.

 

[Quick Digression]: Those of us who have commented in various threads on Wu Wei and that it is not just thinking you are doing Wu Wei or that you can remove attachments; it is more like being lead by energy impulses as described above. [\Quick Digression]

 

... collect energy in the Lower Dantian, an increased awareness and sensitivity naturally occurs.... to maximize kinetic communication. These are subtle senses that allow Qigong doctors to feel, smell, or hear energetic phenomena as they are released from the diseased tissue of patients.

 

 

The Lower Dantian sends and receives impulses, records experiences and responds to emotions. Its nerve cells are bathed in and influenced by the same neurotransmitters as the brain. The Lower Dantian's "brain" known as the enteric (intestinal) nervous system, mirrors the body's central nervous system and is a network of 100 million neurons (more than the spinal cord contains... blah blah blah.

 

[Quick Digression]: So why don't all practitioners achieve this sensitivity level of a doctor? They are spending their lifetimes 'breathing' into the dan tian... There is a difference between accumulating breath and Qi into the LDT...

 

I like to say: Less breath and more Qi. That does not mean we breath less; it means the ratio of Qi-to-breath can be increased. The awareness and sensitivity increases sometimes need more focused and trained practice; sitting there and breathing may not create this result. [\Quick Digression]

 

Finally.. a picture of this none-thing:

 

2m4abf8.jpg

 

JJ Book further names these as:

1. The Palace of Jade (Jade Stem or Jade Cave)

2. The official Health Monitor (Kidneys)

3. The minister of the Orchard Terrace

4. The Chamber of Moving Pearls

5. The Minister of House Cleaning (Large Intestines)

6. The Palace of Mystical Spirits (Small Intestines)

7. The Chamber of Mysterious Elixir

8. The Spririt of the Jade Court (Bladder)

9. The Spririt of the Yellow Court (Spleen)

 

And you thought I didn't want to talk 'location' :P

 

In my world: IT is an 'energetic-thing' with a physical location, and acts on and by the physical wiring, energetic stimulus, and spiritual source.

 

Interesting info! Thanks for the post. This explains why Jim was able to tell whether or not Chang was in the US simply by his gut feeling.

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it's somewhere here (from Wikipedia, "Neijing Tu"- love those guys on wheels):

 

Neijingtu_from_KamLanKoon.jpg

Edited by Mark Foote
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hypothesis:

 

The existence of the tantien energy vortex results out of the 2 abstract facts that it is:

1. the center point of gravity of the body!

and

2. the 3 dimensional geometrical center point of (the marrow of) the pelvic bone!

Edited by Dorian Black
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If the LDT was not a thing it wouldn't exist. it can be felt so it is obviously there. Even if it is hard to understand it is still a things that exists and is 100% real.

 

Maybe the chi storage takes in fact place in the marrow of the pelvic bone!

And the tantien is just the abstract 3dimensional geometrical center point of the marrow of the pelvic bone!

Therefore, the tantien perhaps has no "real" existence!

Edited by Dorian Black

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The pelvic bone is formed like a bowl, a "hollow body".

Therefore the geometrical center point is in the space of the "bowl" and not in the bone (marrow) itself!

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Therefore the existence of the tantien could be a result of being some kind of a "focal point" of the chi stored around the tantien point in the pelvic bone marrow or of the energetic factors of the pelvic bone material itself!

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Maybe the chi storage takes in fact place in the marrow of the pelvic bone!

And the tantien is just the abstract 3dimensional geometrical center point of the marrow of the pelvic bone!

Therefore, the tantien perhaps has no "real" existence!

 

So what you are saying is that the LDT is like a hole in the ground? It exists and can be filled but it's not actually a physical thing.

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So what you are saying is that the LDT is like a hole in the ground? It exists and can be filled but it's not actually a physical thing.

 

Maybe it's the focal point of the energy fields resulting of and created by the chi which is stored in pelvic bone marrow (which is like a round bowl around it).

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So the stored chi in the pelvic bone marrow is the cause, the tantien point simply a result...an unimportant by-product, to make myself more clear.

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Let me explain it to you like this:

You have a metal bowl filled with water. The metal bowl is the pelvic bone, the water are the intestines.

Now you set the bowl into vibration, which would mean that you store chi into your pelvic bone.

Now, this action results into concentric circles with a focal point in the water mass, which can be observed clearly at the surface of the water.

 

The vibrating metal bowl is the cause, the focal point and the concentric circles are the by-product.

;)

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Kinda like this! :)

Look at the resulting energy vortex (=by-product) in the center of the water in the bowl!

But the cause is the vibrating bowl! ;)

 

Edited by Dorian Black
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Another good example:

 

0:14 Tantien is created in the middle of the water as by-product of the vibration of the bowl!!!

 

Edited by Dorian Black

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Well, to go one step further:

If the tantien is like a cauldron (as implied by countless classic taoist alchemic texts), then after watching the two videos above, one might come to the conclusion that the tantien is not a point in the belly but rather that the cauldron-like pelvic bone IS in fact the tantien!

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