What exactly is a dan tien?

[ChiDragon]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the dan tiens are simply locations, but although I respect your opinion I disagree and if you believe that there's not much point in continuing to post on this thread. The dan tiens are things and the point of this thread was too try and gain a more concrete, scientific understanding of what exactly they are.

 

That is what I am trying to do and tell you something different other than having people kept on repeating the same thing over and over. Besides, you have been contaminated already in your thinking by some preconceived notion which you won't let go of.

 

There are too many interruptions here by the people who were trying to tell you about dan tien. They were telling you what it does but not what it is. I was waiting for your proper response so I can go on without any further contamination.

 

The books that the people had been reading were just jumping into alchemy without knowing the history of how did it come about. So, there are many misconceptions about alchemy, that is why you are so confused about it as of now. BTW I do appreciate your curiosity and give me an opportunity to express myself in the matter.

Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

 

There are too many interruptions here by the people who were trying to tell you about dan tien. They were telling it does but not what it is. I was waiting for your proper response so I can go on without any further contamination.

 

 

 

Oh, that must be really circuit-breaking.

[i am]

I haven't been referred to as "contamination" in a while.

 

Or maybe ever.

 

I'm not sure I've met anyone who knows so little, yet seems so convinced they are an authority worthy of teaching people...

[ChiDragon]

I haven't been referred to as "contamination" in a while.

 

Or maybe ever.

 

I'm not sure I've met anyone who knows so little, yet seems so convinced they are an authority worthy of teaching people...

 

Indeed, not convincing at all......not at all......

 

Yet, there were so many had spoken, but still:

The only thing I've been able to find are abstract explanations.

Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

Well I tried but the forum just ate and lost my post twice!!

 

So something out there doesn't want it going out....

[ChiDragon]

Since I did the update for FireFox, then I am having problem with editing.

Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

Lets see if I'm allowed to send a short version.

 

You can cut open and examine a "body".

 

You cannot cut open and examine a "soma".

 

Thomas Hanna calls the soma the 'living body', or the 'body experienced from within'. Soma and body are two very different but inter-related things. A body without a soma is a corpse. A soma without a body is a spirit.

 

Dantian, qi, qi mai, chakras etc etc exist as felt and tangible experiences within or from the soma, not the body.

 

You cannot find these things in the body, simply because all of the parts and the interconnected relationships involved are too complex, it is not a one-one scenario. It is easier to look at subjectively felt phenomena that arises from the synergistic functions and give them a name "dantian".

 

The fact that it is a 'function' rather than 'structure' is why location is relevant but not in the way many think or feel. The "kua" in moving neigong or martial art is the same. We can simplistically call it 'hip' in English, but if we go with the teachings of songkua, zuokua etc you will find that you may have a 'hip' but not be able to use your kua! Using the kua requires an amazing amount of synergisitc relationships throughout the neuro-muscular system, not just the immediate structure of the pelvis and hip socket. The feeling of correctly using your hip joints, ie a certain potential function of them, is what the Chinese arts are after. I say potential, because you can actually train or develop your hips to function in other ways in other body disciplines, and they are very different.

 

This is to give a more physical example. Dantian is the same in my view. This is why I doubt scientists will ever make a machine that dectects "qi". The only thing that will is a living body.

 

The fact that these phenomena are reproducable experiences is why people continue to pursue such things after thousands of years, unless they, myself and most of this board are simply deluded, which is always a possibility

 

Can you 'find' the subconscious inside? Can you 'find' love inside?

 

But we can 'see' and 'feel' these in ourselves and others, and indirectly measure their presence. Same with dantian.

 

So what IS a dantian?

 

"place where energy storage and transmutation occurs". [courtesy of Yamu]

 

I think is the as good as if not the best short description of what it is that you will find. Now we have a description of the function, so now we need to consider the "location" and why are the attributed locations where they are if this is the function that relates to those locations? Since many seem more comfortable with physiological descriptions.

 

A couple of sources I trust have pointed out that what the Daoists call dantian, in classical medicine were called "jiao", or warmers/burners/heaters. Each of the sanjiao (three burners) are associated with various organs, not simply one structure*. They also relate to the skeletal cavities. So what could it be about the skeletal cavities, the organs and the relationships therein, that the Chinese kept seeing that they kept creating these categories?

 

And then what could it be like to experience and FEEL these relationships.....from within, ie "soma" not "body".....

 

Best

 

* Both sources include the legs with the xiajiao (lower burner), and the head with the shangjiao (upper burner), which is not how most TCM texts discuss them.

Edited October 24, 2013 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

Can you 'find' the subconscious inside? Can you 'find' love inside?

 

But we can 'see' and 'feel' these in ourselves and others, and indirectly measure their presence. Same with dantian.

 

Best

Well, love is a feeling in our subconscious but dan tien is not analogous to love. By assuming using my definition of dan tien, I can say the brain is in the UDT; but I cannot say the same thing to dan tien. However, if I want to play with the words in logic, then I can say that love is within my heart. Since the heart in my MDT, then, I can say that love is within my MDT. Unfortunately, this is only a linguistic analysis and we need to be more specific for the request by the OP.

[ChiDragon]

Here is one of the original definition of dan tain(丹田) in a Chinese literature.

在煉氣功時，首先要注意精神集中，意守丹田。丹田在小腹正中，臍下三寸，為吾人生命力的泉源。在調整呼吸以後，由呼氣運動，推動真氣下行，集中在丹田之內。丹田內真氣充滿，則可以貫通督脈，所謂“積氣沖關”則可以進入高深之境界。

During Chi Kung practice, first of all, one must be considered to focus on concentration. It is to focus on the Dan Tien. The Dan Tien is located in the dead center of the abdomen, three inches(sino unit) below the navel, it is the vital point of life. After the breathing has been regulated, from the activity of breathing, it drives the Zhen Chi(真氣) downward to be concentrated in the Dan Tien. When the Zhen Chi is full inside the Dan Tien, then, it makes a passage through the 督脈(governor vessel).

Note: This gives a three dimension of the location for dan tien.


Focus on the dan tien

Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Here is another reference about the location of the Dan Tien from a Chi Kung practitioner.

(2)意守丹田

丹 田在腹部，在大腸的中心點，肚臍下三寸處，入內一寸三分，丹田在內部不在表面，與百會成一條線，都是任督二脈的交會點，是大小周天重要的竅。丹田就是氣 海，氣海枯竭，人就會越老越乾癟無元氣。本門重視的是炁(先天氣)氣(後天氣)合一，吸一口氣經玄關到丹田(鼎爐)練氣，與先天氣炁氣合一。氣功是將炁氣 兩股氣在丹田做一整合(煉化)。初練功時，必須先將氣存放在丹田練磨充實。

Dan Tien is located in the abdomen, in the center of the large intestine, three inches below the navel, 1.3 inch inside. The Dan Tien is located inside but not outside and inline with the 百會, it is the interconnection point between the 任督二脈, Conception and Governor Vessels.


Location of Dan Tien

Edited October 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

This diagram shows the three locations of the UDT(上丹田), MDT(中丹田), and LDT(下丹田)

[dawei]

So what IS a dantian?

 

"place where energy storage and transmutation occurs". [courtesy of Yamu]

 

I think is the as good as if not the best short description of what it is that you will find. Now we have a description of the function, so now we need to consider the "location" and why are the attributed locations where they are if this is the function that relates to those locations? Since many seem more comfortable with physiological descriptions.

 

A couple of sources I trust have pointed out that what the Daoists call dantian, in classical medicine were called "jiao", or warmers/burners/heaters. Each of the sanjiao (three burners) are associated with various organs, not simply one structure*. They also relate to the skeletal cavities. So what could it be about the skeletal cavities, the organs and the relationships therein, that the Chinese kept seeing that they kept creating these categories?

 

And then what could it be like to experience and FEEL these relationships.....from within, ie "soma" not "body".....

 

* Both sources include the legs with the xiajiao (lower burner), and the head with the shangjiao (upper burner), which is not how most TCM texts discuss them.

 

I do agree that the three energy centers, dan tian, are the triple burners (san jiao)... but it would be inproper to say the 'heart is the MDT'... rather, the MDT includes the heart energy.

 

I see the energy centers more as you cited; energy and transformations that occur (whether physical or energetic or spiritual); the heart plays an important role over the entire body (called the Supreme Governor) and for healing; this is the strongest Qi we have.

[dawei]

Instead of regurgitating 'location' again and again and again... nothing new is shared...

 

Why is RED the LDT color?

 

I already gave a hint; It originates from the Laozi DDJ... it gets more fully explained in the early alchemy texts including the Central Scriptures of Laozi and the Laozi Inscription.

[寒月 Hanyue]

but it would be inproper to say the 'heart is the MDT'... rather, the MDT includes the heart energy.

 

Did I say that? oops if I did.

 

Actually you might be surprised where I put the zhongdantian. It isn't a debate, simply a different system, which is another matter entirely and would hardly be helpful to the thread

[SonOfTheGods]

hmmm............

I wouldn't even call "dan tien" a concept. It is only a name given to an imaginary location on the body for the convenience of description. Hence, we have the upper, middle and lower Dan Tien.

 

definition of CONCEPT:

an abstract idea; a general notion

[Taomeow]

Instead of regurgitating 'location' again and again and again... nothing new is shared...

 

Why is RED the LDT color?

 

I already gave a hint; It originates from the Laozi DDJ... it gets more fully explained in the early alchemy texts including the Central Scriptures of Laozi and the Laozi Inscription.

 

I don't remember what Laozi said about it, but alchemically it is pretty clear. However, per my teacher and per my experience, red is a late stage in the process and yellow comes first, though before that what you need comes first. Currently my LDT is the blackest black, and I have a practice to make it blacker.

[ChiDragon]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the dan tiens are simply locations, but although I respect your opinion I disagree and if you believe that there's not much point in continuing to post on this thread. The dan tiens are things and the point of this thread was too try and gain a more concrete, scientific understanding of what exactly they are.

 

To answer your question, why don't you review posts #85, 86 and 87....??? I hope that will answer your question. Perhaps it might be just a good start. Of course, this is nothing concrete but only conceptual. However, you will be hearing more from others are saying who said this and that. You don't have to believe a word I said of course. You are the judge of that. However, It seems to me that you do have incorporated a literal filter to go after what you are looking for.......

Edited October 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Actually you might be surprised where I put the zhongdantian. It isn't a debate, simply a different system, which is another matter entirely and would hardly be helpful to the thread

 

I'm interested to hear.

[mjjbecker]

So what IS a dantian?

 

"place where energy storage and transmutation occurs". [courtesy of Yamu]

 

A couple of sources I trust have pointed out that what the Daoists call dantian, in classical medicine were called "jiao", or warmers/burners/heaters. Each of the sanjiao (three burners) are associated with various organs, not simply one structure*. They also relate to the skeletal cavities. So what could it be about the skeletal cavities, the organs and the relationships therein, that the Chinese kept seeing that they kept creating these categories?

 

And then what could it be like to experience and FEEL these relationships.....from within, ie "soma" not "body"...

 

* Both sources include the legs with the xiajiao (lower burner), and the head with the shangjiao (upper burner), which is not how most TCM texts discuss them.

 

I recall YaMu once saying that Wang Juemin said the whole of the pelvic basin was a dantien. I've also seen this mentioned by other Chinese sources.

 

An important thing, therefore, to keep in mind is that not all of the sources are saying exactly the same thing, and by sources I am talking about reputable sources, not the writings of those who have no experience of authentic teachings or their effects. (That isn't a jibe simply directed at one person on this forum, but in respect of various published 'authorities'.) It could be that the terminology has become blurred and misapplied.

 

As for modern scientific explainations:

 

"On the wall of a Chinese temple in Java, I found a thrilling depiction of yin and yang,

one that immediately made me think of the chakras of Indian mysticism and the

caduceus of the ancient Greek god Hermes (the Roman Mercury). Rather than the

standard black and white circular image made popular by Western literature, this

painting showed the two energies entwined like lovers, a male and female in form

depicted with embracing and intertwined serpentine coils. The caduceus, a symbol used

by the ancient Greeks and today erroneously instituted as the emblem of medicine,

shows two serpents entwined around a staff. A Mesopotamian vase in the Louvre, dating

to 2000 B.C., once again shows the two coiled snakes; this is the oldest representation I

myself have found. The astonishing fact to discover is that this symbol of the coiled

serpent was eventually adopted by Christianity as well, becoming the standard carried

even today by bishops and patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church on their

patriarchal staff.

 

What does this seemingly ubiquitous symbol actually depict? Two plumes of energy

curled in a lovers’ embrace? Most certainly, and yet more. Nearly everyone remembers

the standing wave of physics from their high school classes; the particles that make up

the waveform follow the same path again and again, so that the wave seems to stand

still, a static shape composed of moving particles. It is important that we keep this

concept of the standing wave in mind because in the next section we take this idea from

the two dimensional to the three dimensional.

 

A common mistake, when looking at drawings of the chakras of Eastern mysticism

and their corresponding nadi, or “channels,” is to think of them as being two

dimensional; such is not the case. Like the caduceus, these representations in fact

depict the two energies entwined around each other in a three-dimensional helicoid.

When drawing the nadi and chakras on wall paintings in simplified form, however, the

artists of India and Tibet opted for a two-dimensional view as easier to draw and

comprehend. In fact, the DNA strand itself has this very shape, a doubly entwined

helicoid around a central axis: What does all this mean? Is it mere coincidence? The

Universe is fractal: that which occurs macrocosmically must occur microcosmically. I am

convinced that what establishes our being (our personality, our physical capabilities, our

very soul if you will) is nothing more or less than a standing wave in the “gravitational”

field. This wave replicates itself fractally, initially taking shape in the field of space-time

within the DNA of the embryo that is to become our body; the DNA is the “yang”

manifestation of our “yin” profile. As we grow older, this wave is still with us, and makes

up a network of peaks and nodes that give substance to our existence.

 

Appropriately, as we mentioned, the Greek word for evolution (or development) is exelixis.

The word means, quite simply and unquestionably, “from the helix.” How did

they know about the helical strands of DNA, lacking our modern technology? That they

were aware of them seems clear. Both the word exelixis itself and the fact that the staff

of Asclepius, god of medicine, depicts a helix entwined around a central axis (the snake

is representative of a standing wave), corroborate this thesis. I believe that the ancient

Greeks discovered the helix within themselves through self-awareness, first

contemplating the matrix of larger standing waves that comprise our central axis and

then focusing awareness to smaller and smaller levels ad infinitum, in this way revealing

the fractal microcosm within our being."

 

Kostas Dervenis, Pammachon.

 

The above book has a chapter discussing the above concepts within modern scientific research. The free PDF file can be downloaded from Lulu for anyone who is interested in seeing how biology and physics explainations can be applied to these ancient concepts.

 

Consider that the Yin/Yang symbol might be a cross-section view, not simply of energy centres, but also of the movement of energy along the channels in a spiral manner. It would explain why some schools of thought do not include the dots of yin and yang within the other channels. Perhaps these dots were a later addition, that may or may not have showed a different understanding or concept.

 

Whatever manner one chooses to 'explain' such things, my personal belief is that the experience is far more important that the academic discussion. Truly experiencing the workings of the universe within the body goes far beyond any intellectual exercise in gaining true understanding, IMO.

[SonOfTheGods]

Tantien Level 4 OF ____ ______ ?

Tantien Level 4

 

 

 

 

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hey Mike,

 

I recall YaMu once saying that Wang Juemin said the whole of the pelvic basin was a dantien. I've also seen this mentioned by other Chinese sources.

 

Yeah, it clears up a lot of stupid 'debate'. I will pm you what the other "non-Chinese" told me

 

An important thing, therefore, to keep in mind is that not all of the sources are saying exactly the same thing, and by sources I am talking about reputable sources, not the writings of those who have no experience of authentic teachings

 

This is a big problem. Same name, referring to a different thing. If you let go of the need for definitives and simply stick to one way of viewing things I found it makes things much easier

 

It could be that the terminology has become blurred and misapplied.

 

Sam says, if you want to listen to FM20 why are you tuning into FM40!!?

 

Whatever manner one chooses to 'explain' such things, my personal belief is that the experience is far more important that the academic discussion. Truly experiencing the workings of the universe within the body goes far beyond any intellectual exercise in gaining true understanding, IMO.

 

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I'm interested to hear.

 

Pm'd

[dawei]

Did I say that? oops if I did.

 

Actually you might be surprised where I put the zhongdantian. It isn't a debate, simply a different system, which is another matter entirely and would hardly be helpful to the thread

 

No... another is saying it... but you have the correct idea and so trying to further your point...

[dawei]

 

To answer your question, why don't you review posts #85, 86 and 87....???

 

I think you don't understand the english.. He means: Location is but one part of the whole... and the only one you keep talking about... He means there is a whole lot more to it but you can't get beyond location. Time to move beyond location...

[Taomeow]

All right, I'm having a benevolent minute for ChiDragon. I will answer his question "what" a dantien "is."

 

In classical taoism (and, surprisingly but not, in the Babylonian system as well), the macrocosm is thought of as an arrangement of thirty-six heavens. They have names, numbers, and ruling gods, all of them. They are arranged vertically and reflected on a corresponding fractal scale in the human microcosm. The six lower heavens, e.g., constitute a distinct "unit of reality," followed by eighteen above them belonging to a different realm, which in their turn are followed by twelve above them. A dantien is a transition point from one "system of heavens" to the next, similar to a stargate if you will, or a wormhole, a vortex that can manifest or unmanifest, both connecting and disconnecting realms of various taoist heavens. It is a phenomenon of spacetime biophysics -- including its extensions into realms with no space, no time, no biology and no physics.

 

So, in order to understand what a dantien "is" instead of getting frustrated with its "descriptions," you need to study and practice (sic) classical taoist cosmology, astrology and astro-theology coupled with subtle anatomy and physiology, for starters. I.e. strictly taoist sciences. You can't take a shortcut via other sciences, you need to study taoist sciences if you want to approach the dantien "scientifically." To be able to comprehend them, you need to cultivate respect for taoist sciences, it's a prerequisite -- lest it all falls on a deaf ear and an infertile mind.

 

This respect of course cannot be enforced. Some of us, via practice, gained it empirically (me, e.g.), others just tried approaching the subject with an open mind, there's different strokes for different folks. But if you start with the assumption that taoist sciences, arts and practices are "primitive" or "inferior" or "imaginary," you'll never learn anything. Learning is a function of respect. So I invite you to give taoist sciences the benefit of an open mind at least for a while -- miracles are known to have happened this way. Good luck.