east and west together

[nine tailed fox]

guys

 

i would like to know

 

can a person follow both western magickal path and eastern path of enlightenment at the same time ?

 

i have read that magick also leads to enlightenment

 

and if someone does it, will he actually achieve anything in this lifetime ?

[RongzomFan]

i have read that magick also leads to enlightenment

Absolutely not. You have to understand many grimoires were written by Catholic priests, working within the Catholic worldview. Here are some of the top grimoires by the best translator around:

 

http://www.esotericarchives.com/books.htm

 

None of this leads to enlightenment, or is meant to lead to enlightenment.

 

The Lesser Key has standard Jesus salvation prayers in one of the books.

 

The Goetia assumes the reader is a Catholic priest.

 

Enochian magick is also squarely in the Christian worldview.

 

You might as well say Sarah Palin is on the path to enlightenment.

 

Edited October 23, 2013 by RongzomFan

[nine tailed fox]

well you can see it like this

 

in eastern spirituality there is a principle of gaining enlightenment

 

but there are also various methods and mantras for making someone fall in love with you, gain wealth, and all other sorts of material things, not really related to enlightenment (refer to many tantric mantras and sidhhis)

 

just like that magick is usually used for all sorts of thing like this

 

but may be magick was never meant for this, it was meant for enlightenment

 

ever heard about conversation with Holy Guardian Angel ? it is supposed to be something like enlightenment, more like connection with superconscious mind

 

 

i favour no one path

 

i myself live in east

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seeing as a small handful on earth accomplish anything meaningful out of nearly 7 billion, the odds are that none of us even if we had access to authentic and valid teachings would be able to realize any real benefit from them while having to devote the majority of our time to work to fund a western lifestyle.

 

 

Western magick is make believe, no one has every accomplished anything meaningful via it's use (that I am aware of )

 

Almost all eastern systems are worthless as well, only a handful do anything at all.

 

But you know lot of people don't care about achieving anything or doing anything, for them it's enough to enjoy the ride and be a good person, have good health and a good life. Pretty much any system can help you with that.

[RongzomFan]

ever heard about conversation with Holy Guardian Angel ?

 

Yeah that's this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Abramelin-New-Translation/dp/089254127X/

 

Good luck trying to get that to work. Noone has ever done it.

[Marblehead]

Noone has ever done it.

But that doesn't mean it's not possible. But then ...

[RongzomFan]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible. But then ...

 

Dedicate 18 months of your life to find out.

Edited October 23, 2013 by RongzomFan

[nine tailed fox]

aliester crowley (excuse the spelling pls) did it probably

[RongzomFan]

aliester crowley (excuse the spelling pls) did it probably

 

Nope.

 

He made up an entirely different ritual from his own mind.

 

Not even close to Abramelin.

[nine tailed fox]

well i would like to see an discussion on what would happen if you would follow both eastern and western path at the same time

Edited October 23, 2013 by nine tailed fox

[Thunder_Gooch]

well i would like to see an discussion on what would happen if you would follow both eastern and western path at the same time

 

You grow old and die without accomplishing anything other than keeping yourself entertained.

 

That's the long and the short of it.

[RongzomFan]

well i would like to see an discussion on what would happen if you would follow both eastern and western path at the same time

 

There is no Western path. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

[Protector]

Know what? Screw all this

 

 

 

 

That's better

[RongzomFan]

The western "path" is taking refuge in god, jesus etc.

 

And there is a strong emphasis on summoning demons. This is the end goal of even the Abramelin operation if you were not aware.

[9th]

[Zhongyongdaoist]

guys

 

i would like to know

 

can a person follow both western magickal path and eastern path of enlightenment at the same time ?

 

i have read that magick also leads to enlightenment

 

and if someone does it, will he actually achieve anything in this lifetime ?

 

I have decades of experience that convinces me that Eastern and Western techniques can work together and can be used together with considerable success for a wide variety of purposes, even to reach 'enlightenment', though what exactly constitutes 'enlightenment' is not a matter of established agreement and some might even dispute its value.

 

Since two of the most contentious thread spoilers have already posted on here and I am not sure that I want anything that I might contribute to this topic to end out in the pit, I will not post more at this time, mostly because I am short on time right now and carving out the time to make a worthwhile contribution may or may not be possible. I hope to have more time in a week or so and maybe then I can contribute something positive to this topic then.

[Marblehead]

The western "path" is taking refuge in god, jesus etc.

 

And there is a strong emphasis on summoning demons. This is the end goal of even the Abramelin operation if you were not aware.

Not in "My" Western path it's not.

 

 

EDit to add: My root philosophy is Nietzschian with the holes filled with Taoism. How much closer can East and West get?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Since two of the most contentious thread spoilers have already posted on here and I am not sure that I want anything that I might contribute to this topic to end out in the pit, I will not post more at this time, mostly because I am short on time right now and carving out the time to make a worthwhile contribution may or may not be possible. I hope to have more time in a week or so and maybe then I can contribute something positive to this topic then.

And here you do the same thing you accuse two other members of doing. Funny.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

well you can see it like this

 

in eastern spirituality there is a principle of gaining enlightenment

 

but there are also various methods and mantras for making someone fall in love with you, gain wealth, and all other sorts of material things, not really related to enlightenment (refer to many tantric mantras and sidhhis)

 

just like that magick is usually used for all sorts of thing like this

 

but may be magick was never meant for this, it was meant for enlightenment

 

ever heard about conversation with Holy Guardian Angel ? it is supposed to be something like enlightenment, more like connection with superconscious mind

 

 

i favour no one path

 

i myself live in east

 

Since the subject has been brought up already and what follows is not too time consuming I will note that there already is a thread on the Holy Guardian Angel in the Hermetic and Occult Discussion Subforum which can be found here:

 

Holy Guardian Angel

 

Naturally the quality of the posts varies, but some are interesting and insightful. I posted twice in this thread and will quote from them both, the first one below and the second one being rather long, in a subsequent post:

 

Just a quick note to summarize, expand and correct a bit.

 

The popularity of the concept of Guardian Angel in modern Neo-magic is due to Aleister Crowley. Crowley was dependent on his knowledge from Macregor-Mathers. Crowley's original attempt at the Abramelin operation was in 1900, not 1907 and its interruption was hardly mere organization matters with Mathers. It was in point of fact the "Great Schism" of the Golden Dawn which lead to the founding of the Stella Matutina and the continuance of the Golden Dawn as the Alpha et Omega.

 

Delilo is using Crowley's The Vision and the Voice as a guide, the vision of the eighth "aethyr", just one of thirty, which is derived from the Golden Dawn's version of the Enochian Magic of John Dee, Edward Kelly and their Spiritual Interlocutors. Part of Crowley's experience with the 30 Aires was in London Circa 1898 and the rest was in the Sahara, circa 1909, where he and Victor Neuberg were doing odd and peculiar things.

 

The link which Viator provides to the Wikipedia article seems on my cursory examination to be a satisfactory introduction to the matter, however the notion of a Guardian Angel is hardly unique to Abremelin as Agrippa writes on the matter in Book III Chapters XXI and XXII of his Occult Philosophy. In the Grimoire of Armandel, also translated by Mathers, there is mention of a Spirit, Camael, who. "giveth unto you a perfect knowledge of your Genius, who will have the power to grant you everything that you shall demand of him." (P. 42). Seems a little easier than Abramelin's approach.

 

The topic of Guadian Spirit was also an important one in Platonism, as according to Plato, Socrates professed to have one which guided him. The late middle Platonist Apulius of Madura, best know for his Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass, also wrote a work On the God of Socrates examining this in the light of Middle Platonic ideas.

 

Porphyry in his life of Plotinus recounts the following in relation to an evocation of Plotinus' guardian spirit:

 

"In fact Plotinus possessed by birth something more than is accorded to other men. An Egyptian priest who had arrived in Rome and, through some friend, had been presented to the philosopher, became desirous of displaying his powers to him, and he offered to evoke a visible manifestation of Plotinus' presiding spirit. Plotinus readily consented and the evocation was made in the Temple of Isis, the only place, they say, which the Egyptian could find pure in Rome.

 

At the summons a Divinity appeared, not a being of the spirit-ranks, and the Egyptian exclaimed: 'You are singularly graced; the guiding-spirit within you is not of the lower degree but a God.' It was not possible, however, to interrogate or even to contemplate this God any further, for the priest's assistant, who had been holding the birds to prevent them flying away, strangled them, whether through jealousy or in terror. Thus Plotinus had for indwelling spirit a Being of the more divine degree, and he kept his own divine spirit unceasingly intent upon that inner presence. It was this preoccupation that led him to write his treatise upon Our Tutelary Spirit (Enneads Three, Treatise Four, ZYD), an essay in the explanation of the differences among spirit-guides."

 

I hope these quick notes are helpful.

 

The second post follows.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Here is the second post on the Holy Guardian Angel which I mentioned in the previous post:

 

viator, OldGreen, thank you for your appreciation.

 

Just a quick note to summarize, expand and correct a bit.

I hope these quick notes are helpful.

It is, thank you.

Do you know about subsequent attempts at Knowledge and Conversation by Crowley? I remember reading about him doing a modified temple as he traveled through China, and I thought it was for this ritual, but it could have been for another.

Much of the additional information you provided I was not aware of, but is excellent for perspective. Is the the Agrippa book you are talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Occult-Philosophy-Llewellyns-Sourcebook/dp/0875428320/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

You say that the HGA is mentioned in other places. Do you have other references than the Abremelin text that you can recommend for someone looking to work toward establishing conversation/union?

 

Crowley has not been a major object of interest for several decades. He has some interesting things to say, but I came to the conclusion that the best of the Beast was assimilated by Regardie and well used in his works and adaptation of the teachings of the Golden Dawn.

Based on my study of Crowley I would say that he never returned to following the original method of Abramelin, but instead chose to employ a version of an ancient invocation taken from the Harris papyrus and first used by him in print as "the preliminary invocation of the Goetia" in his publication of the first book of the Lemegaton in 1903. He subsequently wrote study of it which was titled Liber CCCLXV. On page 226 of Magick in Theory and Practice he describes if as the most potent invocation extant and used "by the Master himself in his attainment". He there refers the reader to the complete text and his analysis of it on page 265. Where it is made clear that the attainment in question was "the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel".

Further in the commentary on page 274 in his commentary on Line 5 he makes a reference to the Neophyte ceremony of the Golden Dawn, "...the Hierophant is the perfected Osiris, who brings the candidate, the natural Osiris, to identify with himself.", to which I will return in a moment.

Regarding his trip to China I read about it so long ago that I could not comment on it at this time. I might be more interested if I thought Crowley's attempts at Sino-Occidental synthesis was a worthwhile contribution. As it is I find it as sterile as a mule, the unnatural offspring of two otherwise very fruitful systems. The failure of which is made all the more ironic by his failure to recognize the inherent value of Western Geomancy and its applicability as a cross cultural bridge.

In terms of traditional sources, no one makes as big a deal of the Guardian Angel as Abramelin, building a whole system around it. This could be because a significant subtext of the work is the notion of Religious conversion and the need to provide a procedure that can be used by any religion. This fact may indicate that the text itself may date from the late 16^th Century when religious conversion was both figuratively and literally a burning issue. Aside from the spirit that I mentioned in my original post, the second section of the third book of the Lemegaton, the Pauline Art, has a procedure for contacting a zodiacal spirit ruling the degree of your rising sign. It can be found online here:

http://www.esoterica...mon/paulina.htm

The two Chapters that I cite from Agrippa can be found on the same site here:

Book III, Chapter XXI: http://www.esoterica...pp3b.htm#chap21

Book III, Chapter XXII: http://www.esoterica...pp3b.htm#chap22

and contain some interesting information. If I have time I may post them and comment on them. The site itself is an excellent online resource.

The Agrippa book that I mention both is and is not the one which you reference. The Agrippan text is worthwhile, the editor/commentator was not really up to the task. He comments copiously on irrelevancies such as the Paschal Taper (see note p. 572), but can't explain Occult Virtues, a fundamental and much misunderstood aspect of traditional magic. He vaguely understands the importance of Plato to understanding Agrippa, but is blind to Aristotle. You have to know the material better than he does to know when to attend to or when to ignore his comments, but then you don't need his comments do you?

When I was teaching Western Magic I emphasized an approach integrating Natural Magic, Astrological Magic and Ceremonial Magic in the Agrippan tradition. I did not emphasize the "Holy Guardian Angel" at all, though I did think about recommending the spirit Camael from the Grimoire of Armandel to some advanced students if they wanted to work with it. I never pursued the matter and eventually stopped teaching, largely because few people have any real vocation for magic and were wasting their time and mine. If you or anyone else is interested in knowing what approach I would use now you can read my posts here:

http://thetaobums.co...gic#entry291148

Which begins a long series of posts where you will also learn about Occult Virtues among other interesting things.

I would not recommend pursuing work with the "Holy Guardian Angel", for reasons that may be clearer after you read my posts, but if you or anyone else absolutely, positively wants to do that sort of thing I would recommend pursuing rituals of the type described in the Shin subsection of the Shin section of the Z2 documents of the Golden Dawn, the basic text of which can be found on pages 178-181 of Book Four of Regardie's The Golden Dawn. Regardie provides good example rituals on pages 248 to 265, the second one of which is an adaption of Crowley's "Bornless Invocation" in the format of the Golden Dawn Neophyte formula. Regrettable the more recent Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic does not deal with these ideas as well as the earlier work and is inferior in its treatment of one of the aspects of the Golden Dawn system which is, as far as I am concerned, the most interesting and valuable of the Golden Dawn's contributions to Western Esoteric knowledge. This brings us back, as I said I would, to Crowley's reference to the Neophyte Ritual.

I hope that all this is helpful to you and anyone else who may read it.

That ends my two posts in the Holy Guardian Angel thread

 

Edit: Corrected 'much understood aspect' to 'much misunderstood aspect', here and in my original post.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Zhongyongdaoist