Is this normal ?

[marcus2013]

Hi Tao Bums,

 

Just as some tao bum suggested me, I've started a "program" of 15 minutes daily of sitting meditation. Just sitting there and trying to focus on the space between thoughts.

 

Some days is very difficult : The 15 minutes pass like a second, and my mind hasn't stopped any single milisecond. Other days I can focus some seconds on that space, it feels good and generates insights. Although it's all very subtle and I of course I am in the very beginning.

 

I started adding 15 minutes of "free movement" after the sitting meditation. That is, I stay still and wait for my body to tell me how he wants to move. That is normally movements with the pelvis, hands, neck, hips, normally in circles. Also, some violent gestures, some caring gestures, some sexual gestures, some gentle dancing gestures, moving the body in waves or circles, joy movements, etc.

 

However, yesterday I got very scared : I started to use my hands as claws, I was something between a wild animal and a crazy paleolithic raw carnivore, I was gesturing like tearing apart some flesh and furiosly biting at it. I was very scared but said to myself : Just don't judge this, just observe and let it happen whatever it is. It continued. It was very primal, very violent. After a while it ceased and much more gentle gestures came.

 

I am still a bit shocked that this was inside myself. Is this the "shadow" ? Or what is this ? Is it ok to keep on doing like that or will I awake dark forces inside myself ? What does that mean ?

 

Please advice!

 

My best wishes to all the tao bums.

[hagar]

Great. You just gave yourself permission for a short while. We all need to. It´s nothing special, more like a psycho-emotional burp.

Just like burping, its fine as long as you don´t do it while in the company of strangers.

 

h

[Cheshire Cat]

Imho, this is nothing that should scare you, but it will lead to delusional states of mind.

 

"Free movement" after meditation is just exercise for your muscles that may (or may not) reflect psychological stuff... or it may reflect insubstantial fantasies.

The real problem is the mere fact that now you're looking for "meanings" and concepts for your experiences.

 

I would suggest to avoid this kind of things. Much better to adopt an easy yoga-postures routine before the sitting.

[marcus2013]

Imho, this is nothing that should scare you, but it will lead to delusional states of mind.

 

"Free movement" after meditation is just exercise for your muscles that may (or may not) reflect psychological stuff... or it may reflect insubstantial fantasies.

The real problem is the mere fact that now you're looking for "meanings" and concepts for your experiences.

 

I would suggest to avoid this kind of things. Much better to adopt an easy yoga-postures routine before the sitting.

 

Hi there! Thanks for your answer. I am not sure I understand what you mean with "delusional states of mind" and why looking for meanings and concepts is bad. Why can it be bad to let the body move itself as it feels ?

 

Anyway, I've read somewhere else that the physical part should be after the sitting meditation, not before, to avoid mind/body split. Why do you say it's better before ?

 

Cheers.

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi, I'll try to answer at my best, but consider that english is not my native language.

 

Hi there! Thanks for your answer. I am not sure I understand what you mean with "delusional states of mind" and why looking for meanings and concepts is bad. Why can it be bad to let the body move itself as it feels ?

 

"Delusional states of mind" means conditions in which you're fixated in something that it's not real and/or has no value.

In this fixation, one is looking for meanings and explanations for things that have no meanings, nor explanations.

 

It's like looking at the wind that gently caress the grass and start to ponder like this: "Is the grass happy now?", "OhOhOh the grass is dancing for me" , "This surely means that Kate loves me!!".

 

Free movements may reflect certain delusion already present in the mind: they are supposed to vanish by themselves with time and understanding... but if you start to give importance to them (give meanings and explanations,etc...) then they will stay there forever and even become more powerful.

Surely, there are bodily effects in advanced meditation and it may be a good idea to notice them and interpret them correctly. But, at the beginning, with a short meditation sitting, it's something that it' better to avoid because it's useless.

 

Good to move freely, bad to use this as a diagnosis of psyco/mental/spiritual states.

 

 

Anyway, I've read somewhere else that the physical part should be after the sitting meditation, not before, to avoid mind/body split. Why do you say it's better before ?

 

What do you mean by "mind-body split"? How can one do that?

[marcus2013]

Hey, thank you, now I understand what you meant with your first post.

 

Regarding your question, you don't know what I mean ? I mean the charasteristic split in consciousness in western civilization. The dissociation from your body. Living entirely neck-upwards. You know what I mean.

 

And regarding meditation, it's because I readed in one of Michael Greenwood articles, he says :

 

Source : http://www.paradoxpublishing.com/assets/files/publications/articles/aama/vol-11-2-splits.pdf

Dynamic Meditation

Of course, in the long run patients must negotiate the passage on their own, and for that most
people must eventually take up a regular contemplative discipline. I have found a very useful
technique that integrates mind and body is to have clients take up a meditative discipline, and
then encourage them to make part of the routine a self directed dynamic experience. That is
because frequently people will use quiet sitting meditations in an entirely mental way, and in so
doing inadvertently strengthen their mind-body split. To be effective at overcoming the split, the
meditation must become embodied. Moving meditations such as Tai Qi or Qi Gong are of course
ideal for this purpose,16 but if an individual is more attracted to a sitting discipline, all they have
to do is to tack a few minutes of dynamic body-centred work to the end of it.

The trick with dynamic meditation is to begin to allow physical movement while in the state of
mindfulness engendered by meditation. With this approach, it is often possible, with relatively
little coaching, to teach people how to open the flow of their blocked energies on a day to day
basis. In my experience such home practice simultaneously impacts all the various levels of split:

1) The ego-shadow split re-integrates as we familiarise ourselves with the previously rejected
energy.
2) The Mind-Body split re-integrates as we learn to trust the messages coming from the body.
3) Existential anxiety and fear of death gradually transform into bliss as the experience of
anxiety is increasingly interpreted simply as energy flow.

 

Edited October 25, 2013 by marcus2013

[RiverSnake]

Imho, this is nothing that should scare you, but it will lead to delusional states of mind.

 

"Free movement" after meditation is just exercise for your muscles that may (or may not) reflect psychological stuff... or it may reflect insubstantial fantasies.

The real problem is the mere fact that now you're looking for "meanings" and concepts for your experiences.

 

I would suggest to avoid this kind of things. Much better to adopt an easy yoga-postures routine before the sitting.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Allowing the body to move spontaneously is similar to spontaneous shaking and is very powerful and positive exercise. It can be very powerful in removing blockages in the physical, emotional and psychological body.

 

Where do you think Yoga postures came from?? People allowed the body to move on its own and do the self-healing that it already knows how to do and they would find themselves in spontaneous postures according to what there body needed.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 25, 2013 by OldChi

[marcus2013]

I strongly disagree with this statement. Allowing the body to move spontaneously is similar to spontaneous shaking and is very powerful and positive exercise. It can be very powerful in removing blockages in the physical, emotional and psychological body.

 

Where do you think Yoga postures came from?? People allowed the body to move on its own and do the self-healing that it already knows how to do and they would find themselves in spontaneous postures according to what there body needed.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

OldChi, I am more inclined to think like you rather than daoraintao. However I think that after all, what he wants to point is just a "Warning" to not fall into the continuous interpretation of movements in search for a psychological meaning.

 

Anyway, do you think what I am doing is ok ? Even if very dark side movements arise ?

Edited October 25, 2013 by marcus2013

[RiverSnake]

 

OldChi, I am more inclined to think like you rather than daoraintao. However I think that after all, what he wants to point is just a "Warning" to not fall into the continuous interpretation of movements in search for a psychological meaning.

 

Anyway, do you think what I am doing is ok ? Even if very dark side movements arise ?

Do not become attached to any physical, emotional or psychological state. I think this is a good rule of thumb. When we meditate if negative states surface in the mind we observe them and let them pass. I think such a rule can be equally applied to your movement practice.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 25, 2013 by OldChi

[Cheshire Cat]

 

 

 

Regarding your question, you don't know what I mean ? I mean the charasteristic split in consciousness in western civilization. The dissociation from your body. Living entirely neck-upwards. You know what I mean.

 

Imho, this isn't possible.

If you really could dissociate from your body, then you'll have the realization of the impure illusory body (in vajrayana terminology): quite an advanced stage of meditation...

 

The real problem is about excessive mental activity (continuously looking for models and coherent explanations), not dissociation.

And the cure is sitting meditation, not weird movements.

 

If you do this correctly, after a short period you will experience the real shaking: something that you cannot stop even if you will.

This is a common meditation effect.

 

I know that there are people who make huge moneys on spontaneous movement, but this is something over-emphasized imho.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If you really could dissociate from your body, then you'll have the realization of the impure illusory body (in vajrayana terminology): quite an advanced stage of meditation...

I think you're misinterpreting what he means by 'dissociate'. He's not referring to things like the realisation that the body is not the self, which is desirable. What he means is about people ignoring their bodies, blocking out physical sensations and excessively clinging to their intellect, being ungrounded.

 

I'm getting the impression that OldChi and DRT are really saying the same thing but there's just some mistranslation: spontaneous movement can clear blockages, but don't overemphasise it, and don't try to interpret the movements or judge them.

[RiverSnake]

I would also add that having a balance between sitting and movement in ones practice is quite healthy....so you seem to have set a pretty balanced practice up for yourself.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 25, 2013 by OldChi

[SonOfTheGods]

here is an example of a dark side movement

 

your hand grabs the back of your head and smashes it through a plate glass window

 

what you describe are simple kriyas, so not to worry

Edited October 25, 2013 by SonOfTheGods