It's hard to believe/understand in Reincarnation and Karma when?!?!

[9th]

[Isimsiz Biri]

Ali Sina is an Atheist and former Muslim.

 

So these links are indeed valid:

 

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

 

Those links are attacks on Islam. Ali Sina is living in West and spilling his hatred. Nobody can defend the regimes in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Those countries have many evil practices. But looking at these evil practices, if anyone attacks Islam, he also serves the very same evil. Do not let yourselves fooled by evil.

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

 

If you think you are funny, you are wrong. You mentioned Malamati without really understanding it, I explained. I am always open to discuss. There are many followers of Mr. Ahmet Arslan from USA, they come and visit him. (http://ahmetarslanefendi.blogspot.com/) Make a contribution, I will be happy to answer.

[silent thunder]

I get the feeling Rongzo and Isi have had this argument before...

[Isimsiz Biri]

FWIW, I think the Holy Quran is most interesting when read in chronological order rather than from shortest to longest.

 

 

You made a good point. Holy Quran must be read in BOTH orders. The classical order has been shaped by the instructions of Divine Realms. Definitely, there are many many points that you do not know about the reasons of classical order.

 

The chronological order is also very very important.

 

Both orders work together.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Keep in mind that the Islamic position is that anything good is for Allah and anything bad is against Allah so, by definition, anything good is Islamic and anything bad is Satanic.

 

Circular but hard to dispute...

 

 

Do not forget that everything is related with Nafs. Satan is not that important because Satan also failed in the test of Nafs.

 

Before our race, there had been Atlantis. At that time, Satan had not been cursed yet. It was Ramza, highest Archangel during Atlantis. Yet Atlantis were destroyed with their Day of Resurrection because they obeyed their Nafs.

 

Anything good belongs to God. Anything bad belongs to Nafs. Because if you make bad things, then it shows that you forgot God and obeyed your Nafs.

 

Satan is a just a guest star for our time. It is an important figure but Nafs is much much more important.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[SonOfTheGods]

Anything bad belongs to Nafs.

Define: "Bad".

[Isimsiz Biri]

Define: "Bad".

 

Define "Good"

[xor]

Good: the banana I just ate

Bad: today's weather

[Isimsiz Biri]

Good: the banana I just ate

Bad: today's weather

 

Are you SonOfTheGods?

Edited November 16, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

Are you SonOfTheGods?

Ate you the arbiter of who may speak?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Ate you the arbiter of who may speak?

 

Not at all, I said by smiling. But if you want to be hostile, I can be really hostile. Does not matter.

[Brian]

Why would I want to be hostile?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Why would I want to be hostile?

 

 

You answer yourself.

[Nungali]

We already discussed. There are 128.000 Prophets between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad. Confucius is also one of them. "We never punish a nation until We send a Messenger" That means "We have sent Messenger to every nation." Everybody is responsible of his/her acts since there have been a Messenger for every nation between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad.

."We never punish a nation until We send a Messenger"

 

What .... you punish nations by sending a Messenger ?". That's harsh I thought messengers were supposed to help nations .

 

And ummm ... "We have sent Messenger to every nation. Everybody is responsible of his/her acts since there have been a Messenger for every nation between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad."

 

 

What messenger to send to my Nation and my friends Bundjulung Nation ... where is their messenger? Where is messenger for Australia ?

 

No Messenger , no punishment, so not responsible

[Isimsiz Biri]

."We never punish a nation until We send a Messenger"

 

What .... you punish nations by sending a Messenger ?". That's harsh I thought messengers were supposed to help nations .

 

And ummm ... "We have sent Messenger to every nation. Everybody is responsible of his/her acts since there have been a Messenger for every nation between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad."

 

 

What messenger to send to my Nation and my friends Bundjulung Nation ... where is their messenger? Where is messenger for Australia ?

 

No Messenger , no punishment, so not responsible

 

First, clean the shame you imposed on Okinawan karate.

[Nungali]

First, clean the shame you imposed on Okinawan karate.

I think you are in the wrong thread again ... people keep saying you are but you deny it and YOU say you ARE on topic.

 

Please show me in this thread where Okinawan karate has been discussed.

 

(In any case I imposed shame on Japanese karate not Okinawan ... I respect Okinawan karate. At least get your facts straight when you go off topic in desperation .... desperation because you are being defeated in argument by so many people all at once! You remind me of the Samurai in 'Sword of Doom'. )

[Isimsiz Biri]

I think you are in the wrong thread again ... people keep saying you are but you deny it and YOU say you ARE on topic.

 

Please show me in this thread where Okinawan karate has been discussed.

 

(In any case I imposed shame on Japanese karate not Okinawan ... I respect Okinawan karate. At least get your facts straight when you go off topic in desperation .... desperation because you are being defeated in argument by so many people all at once! You remind me of the Samurai in 'Sword of Doom'. )

 

Not worth to reply. People like you decreased the value of martial arts.

[Nungali]

Not worth to reply. People like you decreased the value of martial arts.

.

I think you are in the wrong thread again ... people keep saying you are but you deny it and YOU say you ARE on topic.

 

Please show me in this thread where martial arts has been discussed.

 

Off topic AGAIN!

.

[Isimsiz Biri]

.

I think you are in the wrong thread again ... people keep saying you are but you deny it and YOU say you ARE on topic.

 

Please show me in this thread where martial arts has been discussed.

 

Off topic AGAIN!

.

 

Does not matter.

[Brian]

Does not matter.

 

Yes, it does.

[Nungali]

" Socrates: You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience of disputations, and you must have observed, I think, that they do not always terminate in mutual edification, or in the definition by either party of the subjects which they are discussing; but disagreements are apt to arise-somebody says that another has not spoken truly or clearly; and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel, both parties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personal feeling only and jealousy of themselves, not from any interest in the question at issue. And sometimes they will go on abusing one another ...

 

until the company at last are quite vexed at themselves for ever listening to such fellows. "

 

Curious that I was up to this part this morning

 

 

...

[ThisLife]

I was attracted by the opening topic of this thread and, after reading half a dozen or so of the first replies, I zoomed here to the end to find out where things had got in "real time". Surprisingly, the plane seems to been hi-jacked and flown off to some bizarre, militant, martial arts state. Is it all right if I by-pass the Kung-Foo movie above and try to get back to the airport I thought we were flying into when I boarded ? (i.e. views on reincarnation)

 

If so, I thought I would throw in a short section of the transcript I came across on reincarnation, given by a Non-Duality teacher, Wayne Liquorman. Previously I had been a Buddhist for over twenty years. After my original introduction to the idea of karma and reincarnation I had been so 'blown away' by this idea's apparent simplicity that made it possible for almost anyone to grasp it,... yet, whose subtlety of concept also combined an extraordinary ability to answer 'logically', all the existential questions that I had been unable to satisfy at the time, (I was in my late twenties).

 

Time flowed by. I eventually found myself unable to make further personal connection with the form that the Tibetan Buddhist group which I had been drawn to, had evolved into in the West. There seemed huge gaps between what was preached, and what was practiced. (Does this sound a familiar story to anyone ?). I found myself once again looking for answers 'outside the box',.... that same secure box of Buddhist cosmology which I had once believed held all the answers one could possibly wish for.

 

The way the plot developed then, for me, was that I was swept off my feet again, but this time by the sweet, pure logic seductions of Non-Duality teachings. At first their take on certain ideas like Karma and reincarnation, (which I had once believed impregnable in their perfection),.... hit me like the full body blow of blasphemy would a devout 'Born Again Christian'.

 

Gradually, I got over this hurdle of apparent blasphemy and became more able to hear what was being said without all my unsuspected emotional baggage flying up in arm-flapping protest. Anyway, I'll throw the transcript in here now, just to see if it holds any relevance or interest to anyone on this forum :

 

*

*

 

{Q} : Can we talk a bit about reincarnation ?

 

{Wayne} : Okay. It’s fine with me.

 

{Q} : I keep hearing different comments on that subject, and somebody mentioned that you had said there is no such thing as reincarnation.

 

{Wayne} : I’ve been misquoted AGAIN ! (Laughter) No, what I said is, that there is no one to reincarnate. There is no separate individual that reincarnates; because there is no separate individual who was incarnated in the first place. So, if you’re not incarnated in the first place, it is very difficult for you to RE-incarnate. All there is is Consciousness, which expresses through these myriad forms. These myriad forms are created and destroyed in incredibly rapid succession, and in amazing diversity. So you can say that this Consciousness incarnates and reincarnates, and reincarnates, and reincarnates… and every instant it is doing that. A thousand fold, a million fold; not only in human form, but in forms of all kinds of objects, both sentient and not.

 

{Q} : What about Samsara and, you know, getting off the wheel ? Is that just a concept ?

 

{Wayne} : Yes. And if it appeals to you, fine, because what I just said to you was also just a concept. That description is conceptual, a pointer towards ‘That Which Is’.

 

Now, the pointer that I like the most, personally, is Ramesh’s description of the Universe. He wrote : “The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is only the reflection of all the others, in a fantastic interrelated harmony without end.”

 

I’ll repeat that, because I like it so much. (laughter)

 

The universe is uncaused,

Like a net of jewels

In which each – each jewel –

Is only the reflection

Of all the others.

 

Nothing has any independent existence. Each is only the reflection of everything else,…

 

In a fantastic interrelated harmony

Without end.

 

Which is a very poetic and wonderful and beautiful way of saying : “It Is.”

 

{Q} : So, could you say that everything exists only as relationship ?

 

{Wayne} : Yes. You could certainly put it that way.

[Stosh]

You answer yourself.

sorry to interrupt but I thought there might be something subtle and interesting here which I missed . How does he answer himself here? Edited November 23, 2013 by Stosh

[ThisLife]

No need to apologise for interrupting. I t hink that for chat rooms like this to have any beneficial effect whatsoever for participants, then they will do so when they best approximate a genuine social interchange between 'live' people. This forum, of course, is NOT a 'live' interchange. It is a modern day, technological similitude of a social exchange that's sometimes called "virtual reality". Here we can chat, but no one ever sees, or actually 'knows' anyone else. So we don't get anything like the same degree of benefit that comes from a genuine , face-to-face meeting and dialogue with friends,... the way things used to be twenty years ago, say, down at the local pub, (in England).

 

In a pub setting people stand around and chat. Different ideas come and go. People come and go. A good evening is a 'fluid' evening, (and that analogy isn't referring simply to the beer !)

 

When I scrolled through the menu list of topics on discussion, this was the subject that appealed to me most, so I popped in. Reading the most recent posts it looked like old Isimsiz Biri had probably said everything he wanted to say on the topic, (Judging both by his closing words, "Does not matter", and by the fact that a week had gone by since he said that.)

 

Regardless, nothing is preventing him from popping back in the pub door and carrying on, just as nothing prevented me from throwing in my two bits' worth, or you throwing in yours. Letting things go where they will isn't necessarily a negative experience in life. If it's difficult for you,.... just think of each of these little speech bubbles from a myriad of different posters living in different places all around the world that randomly appear on your computer screen,.... just think of them as different shaped clouds that come sailing over the horizon. They really don't require analysis, evaluation, or controlling. Unless , of course, you like to do that sort of thing. In which case, I'm happy enough to see a cloud with that shape cruising past.

 

But, time for me to shut down this computer and take a stroll outside. Reality beckons. (Though it certainly is enjoyable to hang out here in this warm chat room, especially now thaty the evenings are so long and the weather so cold).

Edited November 23, 2013 by ThisLife