TTB Website Does has a True Taoist Environment....?!

[ChiDragon]

mjjbecker...

Thank you. I know what it is and not asking for new references. I will continue to express myself to make my point. Please be Wu Wei; and give me a chance to continue after I go make some coffee.

Edited October 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff....

You welcome and thank you the kind words. I, also, would like to thank those who complimented and do appreciate my presence here through PM in the past.

I originally joined TTB was the impression of the site gave me. It seems very legitimate and welcoming. It gives me a sense of a true Taoist environment. Even thought it seems like what it is but it is not what it is as I would like it to be.

You see, most people who study the TTC did not grasp the most basic fundamental principle which is Wu Wei(無為). For easy understanding, we can translate it as "do nothing adversely". What it is really saying was not to do anything which would cause an adverse effect and back fired.

This is what this thread is all about. The question in my mind is does TTB follow this principle as a Taoist website......??? If not, I think it should consider it in the near future or it might have followed already. I hope...!!!

 

Are you attempting to make a judgement about the TTB and forum members? Also, do you think Wu Wei could also mean "accept it as it is"?

 

Unless one is a "sage", how does one know what is an "adverse effect" that could backfire?

 

To me, the world (and the Forum) does not define a Taoist, it is how one responds to it.

[ChiDragon]

Are you attempting to make a judgement about the TTB and forum members?

 

No, no, no. Jeff, I am not attempting to make a judgement about the forum members but the TTB. Is that OK with you.....???

 

I just want to thank you for the kind words. Please do not misunderstand me. I am sorry that I mixed the two things here.

 

Btw You have some very good questions that I want to address, here, in my next post I will show the applications of Wu Wei. Thanks...!!!

Edited October 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

....... do you think Wu Wei could also mean "accept it as it is"?

Unless one is a "sage", how does one know what is an "adverse effect" that could backfire?

To me, the world (and the Forum) does not define a Taoist, it is how one responds to it.

 

Yes, Wu Wei could also mean "accept it as it is" as being natural or let Nature take its course. However, Lao Tze likes to put his thoughts in a negative sense to make it positive.

 

Yes, as you said, Lao Tze is a sage. He knows what is an "adverse effect" that could backfire. That is why Wu Wei was interpreted as "do nothing adversely".

 

Here are some examples of the application of Wu Wei and back fired. IMO

Example #1

Sometime ago, there were quite a few members got suspended. As far as I know, two of them were suspended for 14 days and one was only three days. Your truly was on the 14 days list. Aftermath, one member was very disappointed and decided not to post anymore. Since then, I don't see his posts anymore. Some might just left and never came back. Thus this is the adverse effect resulted from the action taken by TTB forum.

 

This is the case that TTB did not follow the principle of Wu Wei with the definition as "do nothing adversely".

 

Example #2

As you said, Jeff, yours truly took the punishment with the definition of Wu Wei as "accept it as it is" for fourteen days. Came back and pretended nothing had happened and continues participating in the forum activity.

 

Example #3

As I was under constant attack with some sarcastic remarks by other members. I "accept it as it is" with the definition of Wu Wei as "do nothing adversely".

 

As you said, Jeff, "To me, the world (and the Forum) does not define a Taoist, it is how one responds to it."

I will accept it as it is. However, if one claim oneself as a Taoist, then a Taoist is obligated to follow at least one basic principle which is Wu Wei. Hence, the definition of a Taoist is one who follows the principle of Wu Wei.

 

Here is my advice to TTB; in order to encourage the members to stay in a restrain-free and a Taoist environment, it would be advantageous, at least, to follow the principle of Wu Wei. Sorry to say, I still am observing a member of the MODS making some undesirable remarks in the regular discussion session. So, let it be.

 

Edited October 30, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Have anyone of you have this kind of feeling....??? Or

What were your feelings when you first joint TTB....???

If you want TTB to follow certain principles, what would you expect them to be....???

 

I was not seeking a feeling nor desiring or expecting anything from the site. I didn't join to fulfill some void or need. Websites are more a retreat from the world than seeking a home. If your seeking it to be your home then there is something missing in your life.

 

 

I glad that you are the first one who have noticed. The reason I didn't want to give it away in the first place was because I want the reader to have the pleasure to figure it out. Eventually, it will be disclosed. We had been spoken about it many times in many places. However, those who had spent so much time with the Tao Te Ching should know this.

He was not the first to notice... only the first willing to take your bait. I would bet money that many knew the game that would unfold... and we are seeing it now. You don't really like to discuss topics as much as tell people what you want them to know and think. Silence does not mean nobody noticed; it can mean they notice and shake their head.

 

Even thought it seems like what it is but it is not what it is as I would like it to be.

And your proving my point... You want to change the forum, people's thinking, etc.

 

You see, most people who study the TTC did not grasp the most basic fundamental principle which is Wu Wei(無為). For easy understanding, we can translate it as "do nothing adversely". What it is really saying was not to do anything which would cause an adverse effect and back fired.

Your proving it again... 90% or more of your communication backfires. SO your theory of understanding Wu Wei does not align with the majority of what you actually do. You can give a new pat examples of 'accepting' an suspension but you learn nothing from it and will repeat the same behavior over and over...

 

This is the ultimate test of acceptance; Can you accept 'change' when it reveals itself as what is needed. Your going to find many lessons from a website like this but unless you can accept that, your not really understanding how to be Wu Wei as to not accept change is adverse at times.

 

am not attempting to make a judgement about the forum members but the TTB. Is that OK with you.....???

You chided H.E. thread about Dao and De and suggested it should not even be a thread... and said THere is no De without Dao...

 

How is this different? There is no TTB without Members... so to claim you are criticizing one and not the other shows a lack of real insight and a double standard to how you hold other people's threads.

 

Is the website a True Taoist Environment? This is more an oxymoron... And I think makes the same mistake in understanding as H.E. was asking and Cat responded to... Practicing Taoism is also an oxymoron... that is at odds with itself. Seeking to understand Tao or Taoist principles is also off-track.

[Jeff]

...

As you said, Jeff, "To me, the world (and the Forum) does not define a Taoist, it is how one responds to it."

I will accept it as it is. However, if one claim oneself as a Taoist, then a Taoist is obligated to follow at least one basic principle which is Wu Wei. Hence, the definition of a Taoist is one who follows the principle of Wu Wei.Here is my advice to TTB; in order to encourage the members to stay in a free restrain and a Taoist environment, it would be advantageous, at least, to follow the principle of Wu Wei. Sorry to say, I still am observing a member of the MODS making some undesirable remarks in the regular discussion session. So, let it be.

 

Hi ChiDragon,

 

Thank you for an interesting and healthy discussion. If you don't mind, let us briefly look at your above premise regarding a Taoist, you state...

 

"However, if one claim oneself as a Taoist, then a Taoist is obligated to follow at least one basic principle which is Wu Wei."

 

Is the above not a statement making a judgement? Not presupposing and implying something?

 

More broadly, I understand that you have some concerns with the current moderation approach. Given your experience, such concerns may be valid, but when you started this thread, what was your intent for the thread? To ask a question, or share an opinion/judgement?

 

Also, I am glad that you have decided to stay.

[Marblehead]

And I have decided to keep my mouth shut for a while in this thread.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

Thank you for an interesting and healthy discussion. If you don't mind, let us briefly look at your above premise regarding a Taoist, you state...

 

"However, if one claim oneself as a Taoist, then a Taoist is obligated to follow at least one basic principle which is Wu Wei."

 

Is the above not a statement making a judgement? Not presupposing and implying something?

 

More broadly, I understand that you have some concerns with the current moderation approach. Given your experience, such concerns may be valid, but when you started this thread, what was your intent for the thread? To ask a question, or share an opinion/judgement?

 

Also, I am glad that you have decided to stay.

 

Hi Jeff....

Thank you again. You are a gentleman and a scholar. The above statement was not making a judgement but presupposing and implying something. Yes, it was aiming at the definition of what is a Taoist as I have stated:

" the definition of a Taoist is one who follows the principle of Wu Wei."

 

My intent for this thread was not to ask a question, or share an opinion/judgement but to suggest that the forum should be considered, at least, try to follow the principle of Wu Wei such as "do nothing adversely". This is only my wish but not to be insisted.

 

Thanks, I am glad to stay to meet some more friends and foes.......

Edited October 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

...

to suggest that the forum should be considered, at least, try to follow the principle of Wu Wei such as "do nothing adversely". This is only my wish but not to be insisted.[/color]Thanks, I am glad to stay to meet some more friends and foes.......

ChiDragon,

 

Thank you again for the polite and open discourse. Wishing that all try to follow the principle of Wu Wei seems like a noble thought and goal. I think that we can both agree that a sage will not become attached to the outcome of such a hope.

 

In your understanding of the TTC, do you think that it could be considered the Taoist way to try to lead by example?

[ChiDragon]

In your understanding of the TTC, do you think that it could be considered the Taoist way to try to lead by example?

 

Yes, Jeff. It is definitely could.

[Jeff]

 

Yes, Jeff. It is definitely could.

Thank you for being open to also seeing my point of view. Even though we may sometimes disagree, it is always nice to share perspectives. If I only listen (or pay attention) to those who agree with me, I personally find it hard to learn new things/concepts.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for being open to also seeing my point of view. Even though we may sometimes disagree, it is always nice to share perspectives. If I only listen (or pay attention) to those who agree with me, I personally find it hard to learn new things/concepts.

 

You welcome again.

 

Yes, indeed, willing to share perspectives is always nice to start fresh with an open mind for exchanging new ideas/concepts.

 

Now, it is time for me to thank you for participating in the discussion. You really helped to let Wu Wei took its course. Honestly, I couldn't do it alone. Let's hope we can do something like this, again, in the near future.

 

 

Best regards,

CD

 

Edited October 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well, that sounded like a swan song so I will speak now.

 

To the question of the thread title, Yes, I think TTB is representative of what one would view as a 'taoist' environment.

 

And yes, because there are relatively very few restrictions on what we can post I would say that it is an environment where one can be 'wu wei'.

[ChiDragon]

You know that's not going to happen here.

 

(MH has the last word.)

Edited October 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well, you had the first word. It's only fair, I think.

[exorcist_1699]

Or at the very least, teachings which can help to unveil it.

 

The fundamental principle of always letting the Native Chinese have the last word???!!!

 

Really ? I do hope so ...

 

To many Chinese Taoists who knows the TTJ and have some practice , the TTJ talks quite a lot about the basic principles of Taoist alchemy , but hardly can many foreign Taoists accept such a claim .

 

For example, to the Chinese Taoists, wuwei can't be interpreted as 'doing nothing ' or ' doing things in a natural way'..,so unless we can initialize the ' primordial qi ' , the application of wuwei is difficult...; however, since the TTJ doesn't mention the 'primordial qi ' , we are blamed as adding some alien element into the pure , original Taoism ..etc.

Edited October 31, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

For example, to the Chinese Taoists, wuwei can't be interpreted as 'doing nothing ' or ' doing things in a natural way'..,so unless we can initialize the ' primordial qi ' , the application of wuwei is difficult...; however, since the TTJ doesn't mention the 'primordial qi ' , we are blamed as adding some alien element into the pure , original Taoism ..etc.

I am glad it was you who said that and not me. I get into enough trouble as it is.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Really ? I do hope so ...

 

To many Chinese Taoists who knows the TTJ and have some practice , the TTJ talks quite a lot about the basic principles of Taoist alchemy , but hardly can many foreign Taoists accept such a claim .

 

For example, to the Chinese Taoists, wuwei can't be interpreted as 'doing nothing ' or ' doing things in a natural way'..,so unless we can initialize the ' primordial qi ' , the application of wuwei is difficult...; however, since the TTJ doesn't mention the 'primordial qi ' , we are blamed as adding some alien element into the pure , original Taoism ..etc.

 

Well, I can't speak for your experiences, but, from what I've seen on this forum at least, it's usually a matter of whether somebody practices which determines their degree of openness to these ideas, rather than being Chinese or not, as evidenced by Chi Dragon here, who states quite often that the meanings of the DDJ should not be meddled with for mystical interpretations, and at the same time says his view is correct due simply to the fact that he is Chinese.

 

So, from what I've seen there, being Chinese or non-Chinese is not really a determining factor on the matter of mystical understandings.

[ChiDragon]

Well, I can't speak for your experiences, but, from what I've seen on this forum at least, it's usually a matter of whether somebody practices which determines their degree of openness to these ideas, rather than being Chinese or not, as evidenced by Chi Dragon here, who states quite often that the meanings of the DDJ should not be meddled with for mystical interpretations, and at the same time says his view is correct due simply to the fact that he is Chinese.

 

So, from what I've seen there, being Chinese or non-Chinese is not really a determining factor on the matter of mystical understandings.

 

Being Chinese has nothing to do with the result of the understanding. It was the understanding is the result learned from other reliable native sources. I do admit there are bad sources too but they have much less errors than those from translation to translation. I go with the logic of what was being said rather than who says it. MH is no Chinese, I don't know how the hell he understood what I had been saying......

 

At least I have a good understanding of the principle of Wu Wei. I do not kick people out of my thread because they don't agree with me. I have never insisted that I am always correct without a reasonable cause.

 

 

@MH....

You must have some good reliable sources.......!!!

Edited October 31, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

Being Chinese has nothing to do with the result of the understanding. It was the understanding is the result learned from other reliable native sources.

 

In other words: CHINESE sources...

 

Your stepping on your own toes here.

[dawei]

For example, to the Chinese Taoists, wuwei can't be interpreted as 'doing nothing ' or ' doing things in a natural way'..,so unless we can initialize the ' primordial qi ' , the application of wuwei is difficult...; however, since the TTJ doesn't mention the 'primordial qi ' , we are blamed as adding some alien element into the pure , original Taoism ..etc.

 

yes... Wu Wei is more about an energy source than trying (a form of doing) to lose attachment(s).

 

But most keep it philosophical and explain all the things you should "do" to get there...

 

Wu Wei is about the Dan Tian being in control

[ChiDragon]

In other words: CHINESE sources...

 

Your stepping on your own toes here.

 

Well, I do peek into the English sources to find some good words to use for my translation.

 

 

I think you still don't get my drift here. I think I did made myself very clear at another Tao site. If I want to learn American history, I go to an American school. For the same token, if I want to learn Chinese, I go the a Chinese school. So, I can get the words from the horses mouth as how they say it.

 

How long do you want to drag this argument everywhere we go.....???

Edited October 31, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

Well, I do peek into the English sources to find some good words to use for my translation.

 

fair enough

 

What english sources do you feel are acceptable to look at?

 

(I hate to ask if they are western or eastern authors but that would be ultimately very telling as to whether we're back to a chinese source or not).

 

[ChiDragon]

fair enough

 

What english sources do you feel are acceptable to look at?

 

(I hate to ask if they are western or eastern authors but that would be ultimately very telling as to whether we're back to a chinese source or not).

 

Hmmmm.....That's quite an assumption there....!!!

 

FYI.....

I go with the logical meanings of the words regardless of who said what again....!!!

 

 

My source is the same source that everyone has been using.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101019071818/http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html

Edited October 31, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Hmmmm.....That's quite an assumption there....!!!

 

There is no assumption in it but a question as to the sources. You avoided the detail of my point by only saying 'english'. That's not really an answer to my original point... but that was all you were willing to say. Such answers are incomplete. That's ok. I'm getting used to it.