The importance of Bodhichitta and compassion

[Simple_Jack]

Traditionally, Gelugpa's emphasize ascertaining correct view i.e. dependent origination during study/hearing (the teachings), contemplation (of the teachings) and meditation (on the teachings); from the beginning up till the moment of realization, this is the prime objective.

 

Just for clarification, this is extremely simplified, the bare minimum in summarizing the approach of the Gelugpa yogi based off of how Tsongkhapa formulates conventional and ultimate levels of emptiness. Understanding this in depth, would (preferably) require receiving explanation from a Geshe and having been initiated into highest yoga tantra/completion stage practices (the formulation of Gelug Mahamudra differs in some ways also).

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[xenolith]

Developing bodhicitta is the key.

Little do I know; this I do, the purpose of human Life is thus.

[LeoViridis]

I agree on the importance of bodhicitta. Actually, there isn't much to disagree about. Being capable of such compassion, on the other hand, is a feat in itself.

 

 

I have been reading a lot of Buddhist forums and it seems like many of the internet Buddhists underestimate the importance of Bodhichitta, especially many of the Dzogchen practitioners. This is what the Dalai Lama said when he gave his own teachings on Dzogchen when giving a teaching on the Longchen Rabjam text 'Finding Comfort and Ease in Meditation on the Great Perfection'

 

"The fundamental reason we are able to attain omniscience lies in bodhichitta, which itself is rooted in compassion. If bodhichitta is present, the state of omniscience - and buddhahood- is possible; without it, buddhahood can never be attained. Everything then depends upon whether we have bodhichitta.

 

Our kind teacher Lord Buddha, on the basis of his own experience, taught that the principle training for us to follow is that of bodhichitta. We could think of the Basic Vehicle as a foundation or preliminary to bodhichitta and all the teachings on bodhichitta itself in the Mahayana as the main body of the path. This includes the six transcendent perfections, and it is within the practice of concentration and wisdom that the cycle of Vajrayana teachings and practices fall. They constitute a training in bodhichitta. So I feel that all the 84,000 teachings of the Buddha - the Basic Vehicle, Mahayana and Vajrayana- are rooted in bodhichitta."

 

- Mind in Comfort and Ease - Dalai Lama - pp153

[Simple_Jack]

 

I have a feeling that this is viewed within a Vedanta framework.

 

I have a feeling that this is not a feeling for you, but rather a very specific concept derived from other very specific concepts.

 

Even in Dzogchen, as indicated by Loppon Malcolm and a senior student of ChNN, views of different tenet systems are distinguished:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14626&start=40

 

Malcolm: Dzogchen is predicated on dependent origination and emptiness, Advaita refutes both dependent origination and emptiness. The difference, as always, is view.

 

If you confine your notion of liberation to controlling afflictions, there there is no difference at all between all the various ethical systems which recommend self-control in conjunction with contemplative quietude.

 

The question here is whether or not the cessation of rebirth is effected by seeing dependent origination or by seeing an ontological totality. Take your pick and run with it. But you cannot pick both because they are mutually exclusive views.

 

One of the key points of the Dzogchen tradition is understanding all these different tīrthika [samsaric] and bauddha [nirvanic] tenet systems.

 

...

 

asunthatneversets wrote: By 'the mind which seeks to reject views' I meant a mind which deprecates the idea of views altogether and therefore would attempt to abstain from expressing views. For instance; saying that one should refrain from critiquing Vedanta because it entails lapsing into views, is still promoting a view. Much like the idea of abandoning 'acceptance and rejection' itself entails rejection (and acceptance).

 

That was my only point; the mind can't escape views, and so the idea of the mind rejecting involvement with critiquing Advaita (in the name of preventing a lapse into views), is itself a lapse into views. So in the context of views, you're damned if you do (critique) and damned if you don't. Only the nature of mind [sems nyid] is free from views and afflictive proliferation, the mind [sems] IS views and afflictive proliferation. There's no sense in trying to curb afflictive fixation and proliferation with the very instrument (the mind) of fixation and afflictive proliferation.

 

Further, since these issues are resolved by recognizing the nature of mind, the transcendence of views is revealed experientially via that direct insight, and does not come about by rejecting critique or views.

 

I get that there is value in being mindful of not getting lost in the thicket of views, but if we're aware of that, and understand our situation then (in my opinion) it's okay to explore these differences. Doing so can actually aid in refining our path and creating advantageous (relative) discernment.

 

In Dzogchen this discernment is called bsam rig, and there is value in cultivating that discrimination, even on a relative level with separating and defining tenet systems and traditions.

 

Here, Jean-Luc Achard* defines bsam rig:

"bsam-rig [knowing discernment] which is the knowledge you generate when you study and get experiences of the teachings (it is a fluctuating phenomenon according to the capacities of the individual; the more you study correctly, the more your knowing discernment is developed)"

 

*A longtime Bonpo Dzogchenpa who has translated many original Tibetan Dzogchen texts into French; one of his main teachers is Loppon Tenzin Namdak.

[Simple_Jack]

According to you.

 

Not really, what I've posted is actually emphasized as the starting point in sutrayana: which is discerning correct view i.e. dependent origination.

 

Starting from Hinayana, this is a way an individual can distinguish correct view:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14626&start=80

 

Lotus_Bitch wrote: Go tell an Advaitan that cit is conditioned by certain factors of mentality (nama) and materiality (rupa), dependent on contact to give rise to the 6 sense media and to practice by being mindful of the arising and passing of each. You will either get a confused look, be laughed at or both.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

 

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.067.than.html

 

"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

Edited November 18, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Jetsun]

Advaita refutes both dependent origination and emptiness.

 

Does it? i'm not so sure that it does

[RongzomFan]

Little do I know; this I do, the purpose of human Life is thus.

 

 

I agree on the importance of bodhicitta. Actually, there isn't much to disagree about. Being capable of such compassion, on the other hand, is a feat in itself.

 

Then you both must be Mahayana Buddhists, because only Mahayana has bodhicitta.

[Simple_Jack]

Does it? i'm not so sure that it does

 

Then, I'm sorry to say, you need to read up on what Vedanta teaches. If you're still unable to discern the differences between buddhadharma and hindudharma you really need to find a teacher.

[Jetsun]

Then, I'm sorry to say, you need to read up on what Vedanta teaches. If you're still unable to discern the differences between buddhadharma and hindudharma you really need to find a teacher.

 

I consider personal experience more important than reading up, and I have a teacher.. of sorts.

 

Vedanta brings you directly to the non-conceptual, whatever raft you use to bring you there you have to let it get to the other side. All that is conceptual is contained within the non-conceptual, so Vedanta doesn't refute any raft.

[Simple_Jack]

I consider personal experience more important than reading up, and I have a teacher.. of sorts.

 

The you really need to find a teacher in your chosen tradition, whatever that tradition is, then receive and rely on his or her instructions from the beginning, middle and end.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Jetsun]

Find a teacher in your chosen tradition, whatever that tradition is, then receive and rely on his or her instructions.

 

That is good advice, but you still haven't explained how Vedanta refutes dependent origination or emptiness, which is the essential point behind the arguments you posted. Saying I should read up isn't as useful as explaining why that is the case, if you even can?

[Simple_Jack]

That is good advice, but you still haven't explained how Vedanta refutes dependent origination or emptiness, which is the essential point behind the arguments you posted. Saying I should read up isn't as useful as explaining why that is the case, if you even can?

 

Find out for yourself.

[Jetsun]

Find out for yourself.

 

Ok I will, but until then I will just assume you take Malcolm's words as gospel without question, because that is the way it currently appears.

[RongzomFan]

Ok I will, but until then I will just assume you take Malcolm's words as gospel without question, because that is the way it currently appears.

 

But you don't even believe Dudjom Rinpoche, Gorampa etc. either.

[Jetsun]

But you don't even believe Dudjom Rinpoche, Gorampa etc. either.

 

Don't believe them in what sense?

Edited November 18, 2013 by Jetsun

[RongzomFan]

Don't believe them in what sense?

 

You don't believe the 8 lower Nyingma yanas are intellectually contrived

 

You don't believe Tsongkhapa was crazy person.

[Jetsun]

You don't believe the 8 lower Nyingma yanas are intellectually contrived

 

You don't believe Tsongkhapa was crazy person.

 

I think the majority of teachings are intellectually contrived, but it is possible to use intellectual contrivances to lead to the uncontrived or at least clear the way a bit. There is a saying in Zen that you can use an arrow to shoot another arrow out of the air mid flight, so you can use a contrived thought or teaching to knock out another existing contrived idea cancelling it out, leaving just the ground.

 

Tsongkhapa is of no real concern of mine, I don't plan to study him again any time soon.

[Cheshire Cat]

SOrry for this little derail, but I hoped that someone could point some articles/books/etc (or posts)... which can clarify (easily) the opinions on Tsongkhapa's madness. Thank you

[C T]

SOrry for this little derail, but I hoped that someone could point some articles/books/etc (or posts)... which can clarify (easily) the opinions on Tsongkhapa's madness. Thank you

People can have a lot of balls when making wanton judgements and utterances on line. Its nothing serious really.

 

The pinnacle of Dzogchen realization is the union of View and Conduct. We see some here who shows they understand the View, but leaves something behind where conduct of speech and thought is concerned. Calling a lineage holder mad is an example of not having developed the fundamentals properly. Hence, even if the View is thoroughly refined, its of no beneficial consequence, both to self and others. Its sad, but the truth is thats the way Western Vajrayana students (some) tend to behave.

 

 

Remember the words of Guru Rinpoche: "Although my View is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as barley flour."

[RongzomFan]

Gelugpas are nothing but a cult, that used Shugden to obtain worldly political power, resulting in the invansion of Tibet.

[C T]

Gelugpas are nothing but a cult, that used Shugden to obtain worldly political power, resulting in the invansion of Tibet.

citation needed please?

[Xunzi]

Gelugpas are nothing but a cult, that used Shugden to obtain worldly political power, resulting in the invansion of Tibet.

 

How is that possible if Shugden first appeared over two hundred years after Tsongkhapa's death?

[RongzomFan]

And?

 

I said Gelugpas used Shugden, not Tsongkhapa himself.

[Xunzi]

How can the Gelugpas be a cult based on Shugden, if the founder of the Gelugpa didn't worship Shugden?