Did Carlos Castaneda make it all up?

[yabyum24]

Without wishing to start any arguments, I'd like to ask what people here think? I've read his books and they ring true to me but there are lots of detractors with "evidence" that he concocted it.

 

I can't believe that it's all made up but perhaps it's elaborated in parts or edited in order to get the events across. What do you think?

[Friend]

In my opinion the whole story is fiction

but the stories hold quotes which one

can reflect about the genius spark this author had

and must been revolutionary for people at the time.

 

When truth from another source is mixed in

and presented as if it is ones own, then it is still

truth.

 

The way of using the words are as facinating

as H.P. Lovecraft.

 

The question : What traditions are serving

as the source of these of the wisdom?

 

For example in the book Tensegrity I found

that the first exercise set is actually projection

type of qigong in an unusual way to bring

up energy from below which is a bit

different for what the words are describing

this exercise, making me wondering

in the extend of understanding the movements

of the authors, again too clear than it is made up

purely.

[yabyum24]

Yes, I tried to 'find my hands' in the dream state and experienced a lucid out-of-the-body style experience. It was quite awesome.

[9th]

It depends on what you mean by that. If you are asking whether or not its all complete fiction, that is certainly not true - however there is ample evidence that he conflated a number of teachers into the singular character of Don Juan. The more important point has less to do with the strict realism of the narrative and more to do with what you are able to learn from it. In this way, his books have much more resemblance to hagiographies or myth - and the real knowledge is often encoded, and symbolized. As Gurdjieff would say, he "buried the dog's bones". Some of it is hiding in plain sight, some of it is much more obscured. It takes a certain kind of key to unlock the utility of his books, and if you dont have that key, they are nothing more than silly stories. But if you do have that key, the true worth is revealed, which I would say is extensive.

 

 

 

 

"So I worked with Howard Lee." He did a devastating impression of Howard Lee's mush-mouth mumble, with a Chinese accent, at length. "He was a wonderful practitioner--very gifted. It's unfortunate that he doesn't teach kung fu anymore. He found it demeaning. He was also a wonderful acupuncturist, but he doesn't do that anymore either. He just heals by pointing with his finger. But he was truly marvelous. To work with Howard Lee required no ego, because he was so good that nobody in his class, even his best student, was any good by comparison. He would criticize us all.

 

So just to get out on the floor with Howard Lee required no ego. He would tell me 'You're not doing it very well. You could do it better.' He'd ask me, 'Why are you standing that way?' I told him, 'Well, it relaxes me. This is the particular way I stand.' Howard would say, 'Why don't you sit down?'" He imitated his mush-mouth drawl, "Yeah, why don't you do that? Why don't you just sit down?'

 

"Howard Lee had a real knack for stating the obvious. He'd look at me and say, 'Gee, you're short.' Or someone else and say, 'Gee, you're big.' or 'You're really dark.' He really had a knack for that.

 

"When Howard Lee closed down his studio, his students were really upset. We told him he could raise his prices, but he didn't see the point of it. And because he was a Chinese man, he was really fucked up. He was really rigid--once he decided something, he never changed his mind. The mother of a student had an abscess on her leg. She was very wealthy. She came to him and he did his thing with needles. He told her to go home and come back in two weeks. She had big money and was willing to pay him $20,000 to have him work on her every day, or every hour. The woman's son asked, 'Would you please charge her $2,000?' Howard asked, 'Why? It'll heal it.' And it did, within a couple weeks, and it only cost her a couple hundred dollars. Howard was just a dog. He could have made a lot of money for it, but he didn't get it, or he didn't see the point.

"I felt very obligated to him, and considered him my sifu. He helped me a lot with movement. I asked him if it would be okay if I dedicated a book to him." He mimicked Howard responding, in mush-mouth mumble, 'Errrrr, if you want to.' Then later he told me, 'You don't have to have that vainglory that you're writing a book,' as though I was making it up or being pompous to talk about dedicating a book.

 

He just knew me as Carlos Arana. So I took him to Mexico with me once, and there were the galleys of the book--the Random House version and the Mexican translation, because I was supposed to look at them. I showed Howard Lee where I'd dedicated to H.Y. Lee. Howard responded, 'You're Carlos Castaneda?' He'd read the books, and said, 'I got a lot of ideas, a lot of my stuff from those books.' It completely changed him. He was never the same toward me again. He used to be really comfortable and natural with me, and do acupuncture on me, but after that it was never the same. So I don't see him anymore. He's one of two people I would have liked to have helped.

- Castaneda

 

http://youtu.be/Gpc33hz6qVs

 

[Sahaj Nath]

i think Castaneda is a fraud. and i think his books had a tremendous impact on a lot of people's lives and inspired them to ultimately become the serious cultivators that they are today, and because of that, they will always give him far more credit than he deserves.

 

he stole from anthropologists and pulled some pieces almost verbatim from their texts. his teachings were far from mainstream, but they were available through the works of people like Alexandra David-Neel, Joseph J. Weed, Rudolf Steiner, Aliester Crowley, and many others. (i'm not saying that he stole from each one of these people; i'm saying that these peoples' works were available at the time that castaneda wrote his books, and they offer the same principles.) the specifics that made his teachings unique were most likely fabrications, and the principles that gave those teachings any merit were stolen from elsewhere.

 

the only known and undisputed teacher of carlos castaneda is Howard Lee. Howard Lee is legit, although i don't know about the stuff he's teaching these days. http://thetaobums.com/topic/21417-top-5-20112012/?p=306080

 

Castaneda did try to convince Lee to call his cultivation teachings "qigong sorcery," "taoist sorcery," or "chinese sorcery." he was prepared to focus on Lee as the master of masters in his writings so long as Lee would acknowledge Castaneda as his most gifted student. and from there, they would travel the western world teaching their system. but Lee didn't sign on.

 

this was from a conversation with some of his long-time students. at the time i didn't even know who Castaneda was, but they were expressing their disdain for american new age "nonsense," and providing me with context for why Lee didn't think much of my reiki training.

 

that's all i got.

[yabyum24]

Thanks Hundun. This thread is really filling in some huge gaps in my background knowledge about Casteneda. He was certainly gifted and I'm one of those people you describe because his books arrived in my hands at just the time when I really needed them. I'll always owe him for that.

 

I can see the answer is way more nuanced than it at first seems. Lee, himself, also seems an interesting character.

[9th]

the only known and undisputed teacher of carlos castaneda is Howard Lee.

 

Not sure if this is entirely accurate, as CC and "the witches" both directly worked with yaqui and peruvian shamans, which has been verified by numerous sources - although I dont really have much interest in trying to "prove it". I encourage people to do their own research and draw their own conclusions (or not, as the case may be).

 

I find that claims of "uniqueness" always seem suspect (intentionally or not) when dealing with any teaching, especially in regards to those with supposed "lineage". This is not an accusation, but I have witnessed people over the years simultaneously praise Crowley while condemning Castaneda, which I find to be near the height of absurdity, IMHO... (as well as being indicative of certain other things).

 

Even as a person, CC was notoriously controversial. If you are interested in learning more about that side, I would suggest watching the video I posted above - which consists of interviews with students who worked with him personally over many years. Castaneda's works are certainly not for everyone, and in this way he is akin to other "modern" teachers like Gurdjieff and Trungpa. A key feature of their work is the creation of conditions in which blind faith is made untenable, if not outright dangerous. As always, your mileage may vary, just as your views on the efficacy of such techniques.

 

 

"Do you mean, don Juan, that neither the world of ordinary men nor the world of sorcerers is real?"

 

"They are real worlds. They could act upon you. For example, you could have asked that coyote about anything you wanted to know and it would have been compelled to give you an answer. The only sad part is that coyotes are not reliable. They are tricksters. It is your fate not to have a dependable animal companion."

 

Don Juan explained that the coyote was going to be my companion for life and that in the world of sorcerers to have a coyote friend was not a desirable state of affairs. He said that it would have been ideal for me to have talked to a rattlesnake, since they were stupendous companions.

 

"If I were you, " he added, "I would never trust a coyote. But you are different and you may even become a coyote sorcerer."

 

"What is a coyote sorcerer?"

 

"One who draws a lot of things from his coyote brothers." I wanted to keep on asking questions but he made a gesture to stop me.

 

"You have seen the lines of the world, " he said. "You have seen a luminous being. You are now almost ready to meet the ally. Of course you know that the man you saw in the bushes was the ally. You heard its roar like the sound of a jet plane. He'll be waiting for you at the edge of a plain, a plain I will take you to myself."

 

[三江源]

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[SonOfTheGods]

Crowley broke new ground.

 

Castenada took info that was out there and sensationalized it via impersonation.

 

Crowley = Elvis

 

Castenda = Elvis Las Vegas Impersonator.

 

Back on topic:

 

Castenada broke new ground by taking info that was out there and sensationalizing it via impersonation.

Just look at the new age community now days and see what I am talking about.

[9th]

9th.. whilst I dont want to go off topic.. I do want to go off topic..

 

I'm very interested to know your view on Crowley.

 

I think he was an interesting fellow, perhaps somewhat of a genius - but I think his indulgences and vices ultimately got the better of him. He made some useful contributions, and offered some unusual perspectives. I dont particularly find him to be much of a "master", though. An adept, certainly... but I do not resonate with his intent, and therefore I consider his path to be sidetracked at best. Regardless of the claims he made, I dont think his work was less binding than moreso.

 

I think other people may have better luck with his works - personally I dont find it very useful... but then again I dont find anything about the Golden Dawn group or their contemporaries to be useful either. It sometimes comes across as flash for its own sake, and seems to draw in people like that. IMO, flash can have purpose, as a tool - but not as an end in itself. Same goes for ritual magic. Its not really that big of a deal, and to consider it as such is like setting out on the wrong foot. The most effective methods of "magic" are not written down or talked about. As with all things in life, its a matter of priorities.

[9th]

[chegg]

Here is a possible list of books that he acquired some of the teachings from:-

 

http://sustainedreaction.yuku.com/topic/6006/Index-To-Castaneda-Sources?page=1

 

The gist of the information I get from that site, is that he borrowed and/or made up most of the teachings in his books rather than portraying actual events that happened in his life.

 

 

From my own experience, his teachings have elements of truisms (I use the word 'truisms' lightly) in them and the books are entertaining works of fiction. The whole teachings, however, are centred around the lower astral. eg, finding your hands in dreams and the inorganic beings mentioned in dreaming are nothing more than malevolent entities (demons).

 

Remember, just by reading the books is more than enough to alter your way of thinking and thus, waste your time and even alter your circumstances. Many occult books warn you of repercussions just by the mere act of reading them (especially those that deal with evocation of demons).

 

I personally would not read his books again. Unless your a thrill seeker, I dont recommend you go there either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"No one gets to the father unless its through me" - JC

Edited November 1, 2013 by chegg

[9th]

The origin of all demons is in mind itself.

When awareness holds on and embraces any outer object,

It is in the hold of a demon.

. . .

As long as there is an ego, there are demons.

When there is no more ego, there are no more demons either!

If there is no ego, there is no more object to cut through,

Nor is there any more fear or terror.

Free from all extremes, co-emergent wisdom

Give birth to the understanding of [the nature of] all phenomena.

This is referred to as the fruit of liberation from the four demons.

 

 

- Machik Labdron, 11th century

 

 

 

Bert the muppet was wondering about why I quoted the Bhagavad Gita in my sig...

 

 

The power that governs the destiny of all living beings is called the Eagle, not because it is an eagle or has anything to do with an eagle, but because it appears to the seer as an immeasurable jet-black eagle, standing erect as an eagle stands; its height reaching to infinity. As the seer gazes on the blackness that the Eagle is, four blazes of light reveal what the Eagle is like.

The first blaze, which is like a bolt of lightning, helps the seer make out the contours of the Eagle's body. There are patches of whiteness that look like an eagle's feathers and talons. A second blaze of lightning reveals the flapping, wind-creating blackness that looks like an eagle's wings.

With the third blaze of lightning, the seer beholds a piercing, inhuman eye.

The fourth and last blaze discloses what the Eagle is doing...

The Eagle is devouring the awareness of all the creatures that a moment before were alive on earth, are now dead, and have floated to the Eagle's beak like a ceaseless swarm of fireflies to meet their owner; this being their reason for having had life.

The Eagle disentangles these tiny flames, lays them flat like a tanner stretches out a hide, and then consumes them; for awareness is the Eagle's food.

The Eagle - the power that governs the destinies of all living things - reflects equally and at once all those living things.

There is no way, therefore, for man to pray to the Eagle, to ask favors, or to hope for grace. The human part of the Eagle is too insignificant to move the whole.

It is only from the Eagle's actions that a seer can tell what it wants. The Eagle, although it is not moved by the circumstances of any living thing, has granted a gift to each of those beings. In those beings' own way, and by right, any one of them, if it so desires, has the power to keep the flame of awareness; the power to disobey the summons to 'die and be consumed'. Every living thing has been granted the power, if it so desires, to seek an opening to freedom and to go through it. It is evident to the seer who sees the opening, and to the creatures that go through it, that the Eagle has granted that gift in order to perpetuate awareness.

- Castaneda

 

[Simple_Jack]

Bert the muppet was wondering about why I quoted the Bhagavad Gita in my sig...

 

Which confirms my suspicions of perennialist views:

 

http://www.religioperennis.org/documents/Fabbri/Perennialism.pdf

 

"...They claim that the historically separated traditions share not only the same divine origin but are based on the same metaphysical principles, sometimes called philosophia perennis."

[cheya]

"Silvio Manuel came to my side next; he was concerned with practicalities. He gave me a formula, an incantation for times when my task would be greater than my strength; it was the incantation that came to my mind the first time I remembered the Nagual woman.

 

I am already given to the power that rules my fate.

And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend.

I have no thoughts, so I will see.

I fear nothing, so I will remember myself.

Detached and at ease,

I will dart past the Eagle to be free."

 

.....The Eagle's Gift

 

I don't actually care if he made it up.

Thirty years later, it still gives me chills.

[dwai]

I have the complete works of Castaneda in my library and I am a big fan. I know that a lot of this stuff he probably made up and if he were alive today, he'd called it "Controlled Stalking" or something.

 

But from personal experience I know there are things that he's written as having credence (at least from what I've read). I approached his books with an open mind. At that time I was living on the 8th floor of an apartment building and which I was practicing the first movement of "tensegrity" (the forefinger rubbing under the chin thing), I saw this gigantic moth flapping around in front of the window of my room (8 stories high). First - I couldn't believe that moths could get that big (so I actually checked -- it was a moth) and second - I didn't know moths could fly that high (but it did).

 

And whether he "stole his ideas" or was "inspired by them", a lot of concepts he introduced - "the tonal (material universe), the naugal (Dao or Brahman), controlled folly (Wu Wei), etc" resonate with me even today.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[9th]

I always say that the "best" path is the one that works "best" for you.. but of course that requires you to be entirely, ruthlessly honest with yourself - which is quite a task in and of itself. It is also rarely accomplished. And yet, that is no excuse to give up.

 

'The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.'

 

[Apech]

I loved Castaneda's books and read the with complete involvement and acceptance - because what he said rang so true to me. By the time of Magical Passes I was quite pissed off with what he had done - which I thought very commercial and disrespectful to his audience. By the time of his death I was less keen. However I would say, made up or not, the ideas are so powerful that there has to be some kind of truth behind the words. I'm glad I was so open at the beginning because if I had read them with a skeptical view I think I would have missed a lot. I also feel that he did meet someone who taught him something - just an instinctive thing really.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Simple_Jack]

I always say that the "best" path is the one that works "best" for you..

 

That's fine, just don't allow perennialism to color your perception of buddhadharma.

[9th]

http://youtu.be/CIeetlSjwvg

[Mal]

Link to the full 1968 radio interview

https://archive.org/details/DonJuanTheSorcerer-CarlosCastanedaInterviewedByTheodoreRoszak

 

I enjoyed this as it was recorded around the 1st book release.

[manitou]

Which one of us finds a structure and sticks with it? The years I spent with don Juan in my head were some of the most awesome years of my life. Magic seemed to happen everywhere. I never got into the magical passes because after becoming K-active my gift with kundalini was in the healing arts. I had no use for more structure. But his ideas about self stalking and impeccability remain with me as a practice to this day.

 

Which one of us doesn't 'take what he wants and leave the rest' when it comes to any of these paths, including Taoism or Buddhism? Or mystic Christianity? Once we find what we are looking for (more accurately, once the Absolute is able to manifest through us to the degree we're destined) to remain in any kind of structure is to be obstructing the Absolute. IMO it's all Mind anyway, and if Castaneda was clever enough to make all that up and interweave the incredible Toltec wisdom contained therein, then more power to him! What does it matter which vehicle he used, a Ford or a Chevy? Once the hub of the wheel is found one can reach into any of the spokes and understand, converse, and be of one mind.

[Apech]

Link to the full 1968 radio interview

https://archive.org/details/DonJuanTheSorcerer-CarlosCastanedaInterviewedByTheodoreRoszak

 

I enjoyed this as it was recorded around the 1st book release.

 

 

Listening to that is fairly convincing to me that he did meet someone and that at the stage of the recording he had stepped back from this knowledge as it was too much for him. His later works are really reinterpretations by him of the message he was given ... and become increasingly elaborated and perhaps more and more invented ... but I have to say everything up to the Eagles Gift is extraordinary and inspiring (and as far as my knowledge goes completely accurate). Later books also are good I'm not discounting them but I think he began to invent a little too much by then ....