Turning vegetarian - need advice

[Rara]

So it finally happened...

 

I'm currently working at a scare attraction on a farm and I have been touched by how happy the animals are there. We have been channeling and the other night when I got in, I was eating steak and I just felt so wrong. What a hypocrite I was to "love" all these beings and then I'm eating their brothers and sisters, just because I was justifying the food chain to myself.

 

So, I'm quitting the meat, which has been a "daily necessity" for me for the past 25 years of existence (not counting year 1 when I must have spent most of my time with milk)

 

Now, I know that I'm going to have to take a shock to my system while my body goes through a transformation. I admit that I'm a bit scared as I'm so used to having meat protein to fuel my active life and martial arts. I don't really want to eat all that meat substitute crap and I'm concerned that I might be missing something vital in my diet.

 

Also, I have such a good relationship with my local butcher. What happens when I inevitably pass his shop one day, months after not going to him? Shall I just be straight with him and not care about being judged?

 

I currently have meat in my fridge and freezer but once that's gone, that's it for me. So just looking to get some safe diet advice before I take the leap...

 

Thanks in advance for reading and any help you can provide.

[Taomeow]

Since you've asked for advice, I recommend this book, written by someone who was a vegetarian for 20 years.

 

 

[yabyum24]

There are plenty of other protein sources beyond meat, so I wouldn't worry. I've been vegetarian for years. Just make sure you eat a good balance and don't regard anything as a "meat replacement" in your life.

 

Whatever you eat, eat it for it's own sake and for the benefits it will bring. It seems like a huge gap will need to be filled but once you start, it's not so dramatic.

 

Good luck.

[Aetherous]

This article is from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, showing what vegetarian diets might be missing in terms of nutrients.

 

For vitamin B12, which is very important to have, you can try this transdermal cream. Sometimes nutrients don't absorb as well when taken in an isolated form (vitamin pills) or not a whole food form (when it's fortified in other things such as bread or cereal). The skin can absorb nutrients and bypass the impaired digestive system. There is also a plant that naturally contains B12, called ashitaba, but it's rare to find and you'd have to grow it yourself.

A very good food if you're not lactose intolerant or something, is boiled organic milk. Or make your own paneer from it, for a healthy cheese. There are many things you can do with milk! Some people assume that the health food store types of milk like almond milk are better for you, but this is not true...while they might be somewhat good, they're less nutritious than regular organic milk. Boiling it makes it healthier. If you boil it with a little bit of spices, it will make it even better (for instance look up the Indian home remedy called "gold milk").

If you're going to be eating more nuts and seeds for protein, find out how to soak them to decrease the phytic acid...otherwise just eating them as they are will usually cause digestion problems.

Good beans to cook with are lentils. Besides being a kind of filling protein, they also contain iron which is important to get for vegetarians. It's not that vegetarians tend to have iron deficiency, but it's that animal sources contain a more absorbable form of iron called heme iron. If you squeeze some lime juice onto your meals, which contains vitamin C, it will help absorb this non-heme (not from animal sources) form of iron, as well as add complexity to the flavor.

You can also have salads with some lime juice (or lemon if you prefer) squeezed over, or as part of the salad dressing, to help absorb the non-heme iron in the leaves.

Some ideas for you.

[FokusFyre]

Vegetarian misses no nutrients plants have plenty of protein. Plants fruits nuts grains milk eggs honey all kinds of wonderful stuff. But you know what, its alot more complicated than I first thought. First of all fish are much lower conciousness entities than other animals and also are healthier to eat. Something else to consider, plants feel a certain kind of pain. Another thing to consider, eating only things where nothing has to die to eat it, thats the true humane way, a diet of most kinds of vegetables without killing the plants, fruits, obviously, beans, nuts, milk, and possibly eggs. But then I realized these animals are only alive because we farmed and grew them, if we didnt want to eat them they wouldnt have been alive, therefore its sort of our right to be able to kill them and sure dying might hurt for a minute but they got a whole life, and maybe some places the animals are treated pretty bad, but they still got to live. They wouldnt be alive without the farm and famers. So think about that. Its like giving someone a 1000 bucks and saying OK in 10 years you have to give me back 500. Its a pretty fair deal. So I realized eating plant and meat is moral. In a way, its less moral to eat food that you didnt explicitly give life too, aka the wlid, but that food is so much healthier cus its fresh and local ... food for thought.

[i am]

A good illustration of why you've got to go with what feels right to you...

 

Do your research, and do what feels right. Everyone has their own way of how they justify what they think is ok and not ok to themselves.

 

What they rationalize in their mind may not make much sense to you.

[Rara]

Since you've asked for advice, I recommend this book, written by someone who was a vegetarian for 20 years.

 

 

 

I shall...it looks (by the cover) that it spells out that vegetarianism isn't quite as a divine or moral choice that it's made out to be. I could be wrong...that's just the cover!

 

There are plenty of other protein sources beyond meat, so I wouldn't worry. I've been vegetarian for years. Just make sure you eat a good balance and don't regard anything as a "meat replacement" in your life.

 

Whatever you eat, eat it for it's own sake and for the benefits it will bring. It seems like a huge gap will need to be filled but once you start, it's not so dramatic.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you

 

This article is from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, showing what vegetarian diets might be missing in terms of nutrients.

 

For vitamin B12, which is very important to have, you can try this transdermal cream. Sometimes nutrients don't absorb as well when taken in an isolated form (vitamin pills) or not a whole food form (when it's fortified in other things such as bread or cereal). The skin can absorb nutrients and bypass the impaired digestive system. There is also a plant that naturally contains B12, called ashitaba, but it's rare to find and you'd have to grow it yourself.

 

A very good food if you're not lactose intolerant or something, is boiled organic milk. Or make your own paneer from it, for a healthy cheese. There are many things you can do with milk! Some people assume that the health food store types of milk like almond milk are better for you, but this is not true...while they might be somewhat good, they're less nutritious than regular organic milk. Boiling it makes it healthier. If you boil it with a little bit of spices, it will make it even better (for instance look up the Indian home remedy called "gold milk").

 

If you're going to be eating more nuts and seeds for protein, find out how to soak them to decrease the phytic acid...otherwise just eating them as they are will usually cause digestion problems.

 

Good beans to cook with are lentils. Besides being a kind of filling protein, they also contain iron which is important to get for vegetarians. It's not that vegetarians tend to have iron deficiency, but it's that animal sources contain a more absorbable form of iron called heme iron. If you squeeze some lime juice onto your meals, which contains vitamin C, it will help absorb this non-heme (not from animal sources) form of iron, as well as add complexity to the flavor.

 

You can also have salads with some lime juice (or lemon if you prefer) squeezed over, or as part of the salad dressing, to help absorb the non-heme iron in the leaves.

 

Some ideas for you.

 

Funny, the argument I've always had was that vegetarians DO miss vital vitamins but then recently I thought, so what? We adapt and evolve, right?

 

As for milk, I actually quit that. It kept making me feel sick after having with my cereal so I switched to coconut milk or oat drink. When I tried cow's milk after, it tasted like pure $4!t lol.

 

Vegetarian misses no nutrients plants have plenty of protein. Plants fruits nuts grains milk eggs honey all kinds of wonderful stuff. But you know what, its alot more complicated than I first thought. First of all fish are much lower conciousness entities than other animals and also are healthier to eat. Something else to consider, plants feel a certain kind of pain. Another thing to consider, eating only things where nothing has to die to eat it, thats the true humane way, a diet of most kinds of vegetables without killing the plants, fruits, obviously, beans, nuts, milk, and possibly eggs. But then I realized these animals are only alive because we farmed and grew them, if we didnt want to eat them they wouldnt have been alive, therefore its sort of our right to be able to kill them and sure dying might hurt for a minute but they got a whole life, and maybe some places the animals are treated pretty bad, but they still got to live. They wouldnt be alive without the farm and famers. So think about that. Its like giving someone a 1000 bucks and saying OK in 10 years you have to give me back 500. Its a pretty fair deal. So I realized eating plant and meat is moral. In a way, its less moral to eat food that you didnt explicitly give life too, aka the wlid, but that food is so much healthier cus its fresh and local ... food for thought.

 

How do we really know that about fish's consciousness? Same goes for plants feeling pain...

 

And what gives man the right to farm animals and mass produce them for food? Isn't that against nature? Shouldn't we all be left to roam free?

 

A good illustration of why you've got to go with what feels right to you...

 

Do your research, and do what feels right. Everyone has their own way of how they justify what they think is ok and not ok to themselves.

 

What they rationalize in their mind may not make much sense to you.

 

Amen to that

 

Thanks for all your replies so far!

[Aetherous]

As for milk, I actually quit that. It kept making me feel sick after having with my cereal so I switched to coconut milk or oat drink. When I tried cow's milk after, it tasted like pure $4!t lol.

 

Try just having a mug of boiled organic milk, and see how that makes you feel...it's a totally different thing from having cold milk with cereal. Just a suggestion.

[xor]

According to the top commenter who gave The Vegetarian Myth one star on amazon page the author thinks there are no bacteria in the stomach that alone should set off some warning bells that it's not a book to look for serious dietary advice. Quote from the review:

 

 

 

...Fact is the authors 'facts' just arent believable (which, again, is a shame because a factual book on this topic could be powerful). She writes as if the anthropological and archaeological evidence she quotes is written in stone, when in fact many of these topics are constantly under revision or not well understood yet. Most importantly, I just believe that writing a book and promoting it as a factual, scientific account of a subject when it is not is doing a great disservice to your (mostly) unknowing readers. If you are not willing to put in the real research effort, write a book that is touted as a personal account and nothing more. Selling flubbed facts to people who are truly searching for answers, inspiration or (insert what you are looking for here) is just bad journalism.

Ill end this review with some facts and encourage any readers (whether you liked the book, hated the book or havent read the book) to always question whether what you are reading is true and to do some research of your own.

The author cites 207 references in this book.

62 of those references are websites (~30%)

18 are newspapers and magazines (~7%)

32 are journals (~15%)

95 are other books (~46%)

Edited November 1, 2013 by xor

[soaring crane]

There seems to be a mishmash of vegetarian and vegan going on in the discussion. Vegetarians aren't missing anything (and I have plenty of extremely healthy and happy vegan friends as well).

 

An excellent 'compromise' would be piscine/ovo - fish once in a while and eggs all the time. Something like the Mediterranean diet sans lamb cutlet, but with local organic eggs. Lots of veggies and fruit of course. And of course lots of oil - olive, sunflower, etc.

 

And try to get into the habit of at least blanching your veg all the time and eating them warm. But cook most of the time, avoid raw. Make crazy soups with many different vegetables and whatever else you have in the cupboard - - nuts, chick peas, grapes, whatever...

 

Keep fruit at room temperature (In fact, although it's probably not feasible, something to shoot for would be getting rid of the big fridge and using a little unit like those for a college dorm room).

 

The best method for me is do all my nutritional work when shopping, and then just eat on a whim. If all I have at home is good for me, then it's hard to make a mistake. The worst thing for me (and I'm suggesting it because maybe it'll prove true for you, and it may ring true for other people) is to obsess over my diet. I've taken the view that eating is a necessity, not a luxury and not a pastime.

 

I compare it with tanking up my car; I don't own a car because I enjoy shopping around for different and interesting gasolines, I have a car to get me places, same reason I have a body. I tank Super Plus gasoline (we still have that in Germany), but when I leave the petrol station, I drive away without thinking about the next 'pit stop'.

 

Btw, a vegan joke (posted to facebook by a vegan friend of mine):

 

Do you know how to identify a vegan?

Just wait five minutes and they'll fucking tell you.

Edited November 2, 2013 by soaring crane

[de_paradise]

 

He may give you some idea why you don't react so well to milk, also gives good idea about b12, etc.

Edited November 2, 2013 by de_paradise

[Tom Lin]

You have to completely trust your intuition and how you feel when you are going to eat something and then how you feel after you ate that something. This is very important...nothing outside of yourself is going to to know what you should consume other then your own bodies intelligence. No book, teacher, lecture is going to truly give you the correct diet. They can give you guidance, information, direction but when it all comes down to it your body will know what it needs to eat to sustain itself.

[xor]

The best tip I can give is to avoid food fanatics and do rigorous fact checking. You will find alot of stories in circulation are made up or their interpretation is skewed. The folks using them are plenty and they will try to mess with your head and health. In my country they are mostly low-carb folks who took first place from vegans many years ago and have kept it since. Even they are starting to calm down after the constant seeking of ketosis turned sour.

 

Try different things and learn to trust your intuition. I think you will find your way.

[yabyum24]

One thing you will confront is the incessant battle between 'political' preachy vegetarians and their equally political and preachy opponents. They throw statistics at each other, which only serves to demonstrate how insecure both sides feel.

 

With the feeling of compassion which has impelled you to make this choice, you have stepped outside of this debate.

 

Ultimately, it's about no longer wanting your body to serve as a graveyard for the slain corpses of other beings.

 

I was eating steak and I just felt so wrong.

[baiqi]

Rara:

 

congratulations for this choice, it's a good one.

 

I won't give you details of what you need to eat, you'll find it yourself I'm sure. There is so much information available now... Just go slowly, reduce the meat, then just fish, then veggies.

 

Oh, and of course, you don't need to worry about the sirens telling you that vegetarianism isn't healthy.

 

 

Also, I have such a good relationship with my local butcher. What happens when I inevitably pass his shop one day, months after not going to him? Shall I just be straight with him and not care about being judged?

Yeah, usually the main problem is relationships. That one in particular, I guess. If I were you, I would answer him honestly when he eventually asks why. You may lose a friend, but you shouldn't care about being judged. After all, you're the one doing the right thing, he certainly doesn't.

Edited November 2, 2013 by baiqi

[xor]

Yeah, usually the main problem is relationships. That one in particular, I guess. If I were you, I would answer him honestly when he eventually asks why. You may lose a friend, but you shouldn't care about being judged. After all, you're the one doing the right thing, he certainly doesn't.

 

I wouldn't be so judging of the butcher but otherwise I agree with you. There will be resistance to change from people.

[Taomeow]

According to the top commenter who gave The Vegetarian Myth one star on amazon page the author thinks there are no bacteria in the stomach that alone should set off some warning bells that it's not a book to look for serious dietary advice. Quote from the review:

 

There's over 200 five-star reviews and one one-star review?.. Why do you think this one is more accurate than two hundred of the opposite ones?

 

As for bacteria absent from the stomach, I have no idea what the author of the review means ascribing this view to the author, I would need to see the context. I am aware though of a huge controversy around the subject of which are beneficial and which are harmful. I remember when my mom, in the old country, was getting e.coli prescribed by a doctor -- it was thought of as beneficial back then. Now the medical consensus is it's pathogenic. Go figure.

 

My own context for the book I suggested is two of my taiji friends who were vegetarians for years, for whom this read was the last straw that broke their vegetarianism. Before, they used to go to doctors trying to deal with assorted health issues, now they just eat differently (meat back in, gluten and dairy and sugar out), and the problems went away. The problems didn't appear overnight so they were not immediately traceable to dietary choices, and kept piling up gradually. But given these people's overall exemplary lifestyle (organic food only, daily taiji, etc.), narrowing it down to a mismatch between their ideology and their physiology took a while. And then ideology had to go.

 

Me, I spent one year as a strict vegetarian, and one year on strict paleo, and I won't touch vegetarianism again with a six-foot pole, while paleo may be revisited. It was hard to maintain practically (god only knows how few foods are available to anyone who refuses to eat filler material and insists on actual nutrition), but it convinced me that quite a few people could solve quite a few common physical, emotional and mental health problems doing just that.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Some good fixes:

 

fava beans (2x the protein of all other beans)

pumpkin seeds (2x the protein of all other seeds and nuts)

 

nutritional/brewers yeast kept in a shaker - lots of B12 and other B vitamins in it. some use for "cheesy" taste, which doesn't really make sense, but gives an idea of some foods to put it on. It's also good mixed with soymilk and cinnamon for a protein/vitamin shake.

 

soy milk - one cup has the same protein as a portion of meat!

 

peanuts: they're cheap and have lots of vitamins and minerals. nothing to be afraid of.. just wash your hands after to avoid oil transfer to someone with allergies.

 

miso paste -- mix with starchy water and add to sauces instead of bullion for "tang"iness. the flavours in the sauce should disguise the flavour and just leave the effect. It's also very very healthy.

 

tofu: fry it until golden before adding other vegetables to get a meat texture. Put curry powder or brown sugar in the oil before adding the tofu and it will coat with flavour.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I now avoid peanuts because they can contribute toward damp.

 

Shame because I did love them, but now I do almonds instead, and now I love them more.

 

Are we not supposed to be avoiding soy because of it being pumped full of hormones and linked to cancer and infertility now?

yeah, never buy soy that doesn't say "organic, non-GMO" on the label, miso included.

 

It's important to vary the seeds and nuts too I'd say, though they all have very similar properties.

[xor]

There's over 200 five-star reviews and one one-star review?..

 

 

Not really:

 

 

5 star

112

4 star

20

3 star

21

2 star

17

1 star

53

 

It was the topmost review and the problems cited were relevant. I don't plan to spend 15 bucks to find a book basing 30% of itself on wikipedia, one authors experiences or rumors when it claims to be some kind of debunking book.

 

 

2,885 of 3,073 people found the following review helpful

Disappointing

By A. Perri on May 30, 2010

 

 

 

1) I am a female.

2) I give the idea of this book 5 stars, but its execution 1.

3) I have been a radical vegan, a rabid meat-eater and everything in between (currently in the in-between)

4) I am working on an archaeological PhD on hunter-gatherer diets, subsistence, hunting and transition to agriculture.

 

 

As for bacteria absent from the stomach, I have no idea what the author of the review means ascribing this view to the author, I would need to see the context. I am aware though of a huge controversy around the subject of which are beneficial and which are harmful. I remember when my mom, in the old country, was getting e.coli prescribed by a doctor -- it was thought of as beneficial back then. Now the medical consensus is it's pathogenic. Go figure.

 

Yes it was only one example. I could give more, but I thought it was enough. There were others with pages cited. You can read the full review.

 

My own context for the book I suggested is two of my taiji friends who were vegetarians for years, for whom this read was the last straw that broke their vegetarianism. Before, they used to go to doctors trying to deal with assorted health issues, now they just eat differently (meat back in, gluten and dairy and sugar out), and the problems went away.

 

Indeed, alot of my health problems disappeared when I threw out gluten and most of the artificial sugar. I would suggest this is the main reason. Alot of vegetarians eat way too much gluten. We could give more stories how things changed for the better but they serve no purpose since we are only giving one view. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough to rely on regarding diets.

 

The problems didn't appear overnight so they were not immediately traceable to dietary choices, and kept piling up gradually. But given these people's overall exemplary lifestyle (organic food only, daily taiji, etc.), narrowing it down to a mismatch between their ideology and their physiology took a while.

 

Exemplary lifestyle with gluten? Please...

 

And then ideology had to go.

 

Ideologies come and go. It's best to follow your instincts and what you want, not books based on bias.

 

Me, I spent one year as a strict vegetarian, and one year on strict paleo, and I won't touch vegetarianism again with a six-foot pole, while paleo may be revisited. It was hard to maintain practically (god only knows how few foods are available to anyone who refuses to eat filler material and insists on actual nutrition), but it convinced me that quite a few people could solve quite a few common physical, emotional and mental health problems doing just that.

 

So what did you eat as a vegetarian? Can you imagine someone doing better?

Edited November 2, 2013 by xor

[Rara]

Sorry, not to confuse with vegan, no. I just avoid milk and cheese a lot of the time just because I don't like them. I still love eggs and yoghurt.

 

But yes, my main issue is chewing on animal flesh. It just comes over as a bit disturbing to me now.

[Taomeow]

 

Not really:

 

 

It was the topmost review and the problems cited were relevant. I don't plan to spend 15 bucks to find a book basing 30% of itself on wikipedia, one authors experiences or rumors when it claims to be some kind of debunking book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it was only one example. I could give more, but I thought it was enough. There were others with pages cited. You can read the full review.

 

 

Indeed, alot of my health problems disappeared when I threw out gluten and most of the artificial sugar. I would suggest this is the main reason. Alot of vegetarians eat way too much gluten. We could give more stories how things changed for the better but they serve no purpose since we are only giving one view. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough to rely on regarding diets.

 

 

Exemplary lifestyle with gluten? Please...

 

 

Ideologies come and go. It's best to follow your instincts and what you want, not books based on bias.

 

 

So what did you eat as a vegetarian? Can you imagine someone doing better?

I have to respectfully bail out. In addition to briefly citing my experiments on myself (not limited to the two I mentioned by any stretch of imagination), I've been doing nutritional consulting for some 15 years, have studied pretty much everything related to the subject, historic modern ethnic scientific medical biophysical anecdotal experiential etc. etc., which is why I normally avoid these discussions -- thousands of prior ones (including with vegetarians) make for a good sapientis sat. What caused me to get into Rara's thread was his explicit request for advice, and my idea (which you immediately proved wrong) that I can do something useful without getting involved in the thread, by just suggesting a book which people I know and respect swear by.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Taomeow

[xor]

What caused me to get into Rara's thread was his explicit request for advice, and my idea (which you immediately proved wrong) that I can do something useful without getting involved in the thread, by just suggesting a book which people I know and respect swear by.

 

Well you just linked an image to a book cover and I checked it out finding immediately reasons why not to trust the book. Perhaps the advice is sound, I don't know, but I tend to distrust books that claim to be based on science but are more of a personal story. I especially cringe at this type of book that claims it's busting a myth only to have alot of hot air. Choosing good sources has nothing to do with pro- or con-vegetarianism and as I think we discussed before, I'm not exactly vegetarian myself.

Edited November 2, 2013 by xor

[Taomeow]

I'm told the myth it busts is that vegetarians are kinder to the live creatures than meat eaters. This is the part I wanted Rara to check out, since his reasons for considering vegetarianism were compassionate rather than nutritional. I've read books of this nature before but so many and so long ago that it was easier for me to go with the last in first out impulse. Maybe it's not the best. I dunno. I do know from vast prior explorations that the message of vegetarians doing something morally and environmentally more sound is fucked up to the max.