Turning vegetarian - need advice

[xor]

Thanks, but I have to admit it seems kind of like taking a sledge hammer to 22 straw men to me.

 

It was strange how he changed from vegan to vegetarian in those arguments. So lacto-ovo vegetarians have better bone density than omnivores? Cite vegans who have less bone density...

Edited November 8, 2013 by xor

[mYTHmAKER]

Poets
are often
eaten alive;
their flesh
can be
quite tender.

At one time
I ate dead bodies
with the
best of them,
never fully
understanding
the implications
and
the pain
of how
they arrived
at my table.

Then one day
the desire,
to eat
empty houses
of souls who
have left
or been
forced to
evacuate,
was gone.

What to do?

With no
effort,
not knowing
how or why;
just as
some people
no longer
wish to work,
brush their teeth,
exercise,
or
swim in the sea
in dead of winter,
my desire left me.

What to do?

I imagine
human beings
as quite tasty
and would
just as soon
eat
a cow,
a cat,
a dog,
a pig,
as a poet.
So why the fuss.

 

Sometimes
I wake up
in a cold sweat
to the sounds
of vegetables
screaming!

What to do?

[i am]

So by your first point you mean justifying eating something you love?

 

I don't know. It's a slippery thing. It gets back to the whole "something must die so that you can live" argument. It's up to you to decide where to draw the line.

 

I read something once about the predator/prey interaction. The prey evades and runs and fights...but once it's clear that it's caught, it gives up, and basically gives itself over to the predator. And that between the eater and eaten (mind you the eating is happening often while the prey is STILL ALIVE), there actually forms some kind of bond, almost love between them. Can you visualize it?

 

It's the way of nature. At least with carnivores, which we may or may not be.

 

But the perversion of this is farmed animals, treated like a "product" rather than a life form, killed inhumanely (whether killing can be humane is a conclusion you need to come to on your own), and put through an assembly line slaughter process.

 

I know that I for one don't agree with that process, and definitely don't want to put something in my body which has been through that process. I still sometimes do...I'm trying to figure out where to take my stand on this whole thing. But I'm fine with hunted meat.

[baiqi]

I read something once about the predator/prey interaction. The prey evades and runs and fights...but once it's clear that it's caught, it gives up, and basically gives itself over to the predator. And that between the eater and eaten (mind you the eating is happening often while the prey is STILL ALIVE), there actually forms some kind of bond, almost love between them. Can you visualize it?

I cannot really visualise a "love bond" here, sorry... From the many documentaries I've seen, most predators seem to act by surprise. The prey has very little time to realize anything.

Predators mostly kill the sick and the old, so it is a part of a "purification" process. That is not "moral", but is consistent with Nature. And animal farming is far worse.

 

 

It's the way of nature. At least with carnivores, which we may or may not be.

 

But the perversion of this is farmed animals, treated like a "product" rather than a life form, killed inhumanely (whether killing can be humane is a conclusion you need to come to on your own), and put through an assembly line slaughter process.

I agree completely.

 

 

But I'm fine with hunted meat.

I wouldn't say "I'm fine with it", since you can be healthy, in our modern societies, without any meat, hunted or not. However, I agree that if human only ate hunted meat (like in many tribes):

- animals would be violently killed, but at least they would have lived free lives in nature before that. With farming (especially industrial), there's simply no life before death

- we would eat waaaaaaay less meat

- much less health problems: it's pretty physical to hunt, especially without guns!

- the killing-eating process would be direct. Which prevents dehumanization a bit. The animal is still considered as a sentient being, not a mere product.

- no environmental problems caused by animal farming.

- the animal has some chances of escape, and there even is a risk factor for the hunters. It's a "fight", not a mere execution.

 

So yeah, even if I don't like hunting, your point does make sense.

[baiqi]

Has anyone come across this most interesting article before?

 

22 Reasons Not To Go Vegetarian.... thats the title. Its well-written, and where possible, provides enough factual notes to be of interest to both sides of the camp.

 

 

http://www.westonapr...o-go-vegetarian

I call this bullshit. It's actually dishonest.

 

You just need to know what does meat to your body/the world/ animals and imagine what happens without. Then you can easily prove these 22 points wrong.

 

You'll save your heart

Yes. Why? Just read the latest studies about meat consumption and heart problems. The results are very clear.

 

Here is just one among many: http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-study-links-l-carnitine-in-red-meat-to-heart-disease-201304176083

You'll reduce your risk of cancer

Yes, some cancers are directy linked to meat consumption.

 

You'll make a strong political statement

Yes you will: even if you won't stop everything, you'll get noticed, even if you don't want to.

 

They say " In fact, the entire interactive network of life on earth, from the jellyfish to the judge, is based on the sacrifice of animals and the use of animal foods. There’s no escape from dependence on slaughtered animals, not even for really good vegan folks who feel wonderful about themselves as they finish their vegan meal."

 

Maybe, so what? Because you have to harm animals, we should just do more harm and not care? The vegan folks at least reduce the harm we do to animals. Not perfect, but still better.

 

Your bones will last longer

References, please?

 

Yup:

 

http://pcrm.org/media/news/vegetarian-diets-promote-bone-health

 

(And you can put me to the test on that one, by the way)

 

http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/vegan-buddhist-nuns-have-same-bone-density-as-non-vegetarians.html

 

and so on, I stop it here...

 

I'm not saying it's a panacea for health, I 'm just saying you can be just fine, if you are just a little bit cautious.

[i am]

I cannot really visualise a "love bond" here, sorry... From the many documentaries I've seen, most predators seem to act by surprise. The prey has very little time to realize anything.

Predators mostly kill the sick and the old, so it is a part of a "purification" process. That is not "moral", but is consistent with Nature. And animal farming is far worse.

Well, unless either one of us ever gets eaten by a predator, I guess we'll never be sure.

 

Prey gets chased. All the time. Even if it somehow gets caught in a set of jaws before knowing it's being hunted, it doesn't die on contact. It has time to struggle. And I've watched animals still looking around and breathing as a pack of wolves starts eating them.

 

But we're talking about vegetarians here, not hunting...

[Taomeow]

Trying to improve on nature is what got us in trouble to begin with.

 

If humans were the ones who invented the eating of species by other species, I would be the first one to protest. As things stand in reality though, I protest humans eating what isn't theirs for the taking -- forests and grasslands, rivers and oceans, air and natural electromagnetic fields, light and darkness, biodiversity, rain and sunshine, life on earth.

 

If none of the things humans do that cause 150 species to go extinct every day touch the heart of someone who is too sensitive to eat one of those not going extinct, I call this beautiful vegetarian oblivion. Vegetarianism is used by some as a moral right to obliviousness. I find it unpalatable.

 

Do something if you care, or don't do anything if you don't care, but don't do something that is fake and think you've arrived at a place of moral superiority. Just stop being holier-than-thou toward meat eaters, because you are abso-frackin'-lutely not. Not by one chicken. Your dietary choices kill a whale every day, a bluefin tuna every hour. Just follow your vegetarian food chain all the way to reality and you'll know what it is you are really eating. Just to be clear. You don't have to change what's on your plate. But don't hit anyone on the head with that plate, it is all bloody and gory and as much, or more, the outcome of butchery as any steak. Seriously.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Taomeow

[xor]

I wouldn't let it bother you if someone thinks what they do is more moral then what you do.

[Taomeow]

Spontaneously perceiving, consciously evaluating, and forming an opinion or even a moral stance does not "bother" me. It comes naturally, and it is also practiced in my lineage. (You meditate into wuwei by removing the thoughts from your way, and the way to remove them is to pass a judgment on them as soon as they appear: "right," "wrong," or "for later." That's the best way I know of to stop your own thoughts from "bothering" you.)

[Rara]

Trying to improve on nature is what got us in trouble to begin with.

 

If humans were the ones who invented the eating of species by other species, I would be the first one to protest.

We may not have "invented" meat eating, but rumour has it that we are evolving to a point where we can be more caring. Do we murder other humans as much as we used to? No. We have a universal understanding, in general, that murder is bad. I won't eat a human, so what's so just about eating a cow?

 

I would say that predatory nature comes from ignorance, laziness and ego. The food chain is similar to the corporate world...climbing on shoulders to reach the top.

 

I could be wrong...I could make this move and I could learn that it is a total mistake. But for now, as you can probably see, there isn't much that can change my mind.

 

I opened this thread for advice on my decision, not a meat eater vs veggie debate. Though I do respect the points made and thank all who have given me something to think about

[Rara]

1. Well the cattle eat those grains and soy produced in the modern agriculture way. So it is a non-issue. You have to however consider if you want to a ) minimize unnecessary death or b ) you just don't want to eat the end product of some creature's death. These are different issues.

 

For a ) your best bet would be to get food from a farm that isn't part of the monster of modern agriculture. Grass-fed beef etc would be better than meat you can buy in a store and better than soy etc and veggies, fruits, whatever from that farm even better.

 

For b ) you have an easy choice. Just stop eating something you don't want to.

 

2. You might make some mistakes but do research on your own, experiment. Taking responsibility for your own path is what it's all about.

And both, to be perfectly honest. Though point "b" of course is simple enough as you said.

 

Point "a" is all well and good, but where do you find stuff like this? I'm a guy without a car haha (and if I had to drive to get it, then here comes the environmental issues lol)

 

Is this just all getting too complicated? Yes, I want to avoid supporting unnecessary death and I'm not particularly fond of putting my teeth through flesh any more. Just as much as I don't like, say, cheesy pop music, so I choose not to consume that either

[Taomeow]

We may not have "invented" meat eating, but rumour has it that we are evolving to a point where we can be more caring. Do we murder other humans as much as we used to? No. We have a universal understanding, in general, that murder is bad. I won't eat a human, so what's so just about eating a cow?

 

I would say that predatory nature comes from ignorance, laziness and ego. The food chain is similar to the corporate world...climbing on shoulders to reach the top.

 

I could be wrong...I could make this move and I could learn that it is a total mistake. But for now, as you can probably see, there isn't much that can change my mind.

 

I opened this thread for advice on my decision, not a meat eater vs veggie debate. Though I do respect the points made and thank all who have given me something to think about

 

Humans don't murder less, they murder much much more, what has changed is the style and methods, and changed for the worse, not for the better, contrary to our indoctrination in our make-believe progress. The all-time record for mass murder so far is held by the 20th century -- just WWII alone killed 80,000.000 worldwide, and there's been hundreds of other wars, revolutions, genocides, government-made famines (not counting natural disasters, for which our agricultural methods are a sitting duck regardless of other factors) whose combined death toll dwarfs all murder committed by humans in all prior centuries. During which, incidentally, every next one, give or take, resulted in a greater absolute numbers of murders and, with perhaps one exception, in a greater percentage of world population being murdered. However, famines brought about by grain agriculture were the main cause of deaths in most centuries, not wars.

 

It's easier to make illusion-based decisions than reality-based decisions in every case -- illusions are pliable, they easily adapt to the latest agenda, latest whim, latest round of brainwashing, anything that works the illusion can bend and shape it any which way with utmost ease. Reality is a bit less obliging, alas.

 

The only thing I advocate is decision-making based on reality. Not vegetarianism, not meat eating. Reality. But even that I don't really insist on. As a Russian poet said, "a deception that uplifts us we cherish more than a multitude of truths that don't."

[xor]

Would be interesting if you would start a new thread on grains, Taomeow. I don't want to derail this topic and don't have much to go on in that topic except gluten-free has been heaven for me(don't have coeliacs) and alot of folks I know are leaving grains... it seems everyone has different reasons though for doing it. I didn't actually think about an ethical dimension in my choice just my own health. It's been easily best choice in diet I've made so far.

[Rara]

 

Humans don't murder less, they murder much much more, what has changed is the style and methods, and changed for the worse, not for the better, contrary to our indoctrination in our make-believe progress. The all-time record for mass murder so far is held by the 20th century -- just WWII alone killed 80,000.000 worldwide, and there's been hundreds of other wars, revolutions, genocides, government-made famines (not counting natural disasters, for which our agricultural methods are a sitting duck regardless of other factors) whose combined death toll dwarfs all murder committed by humans in all prior centuries. During which, incidentally, every next one, give or take, resulted in a greater absolute numbers of murders and, with perhaps one exception, in a greater percentage of world population being murdered. However, famines brought about by grain agriculture were the main cause of deaths in most centuries, not wars.

 

It's easier to make illusion-based decisions than reality-based decisions in every case -- illusions are pliable, they easily adapt to the latest agenda, latest whim, latest round of brainwashing, anything that works the illusion can bend and shape it any which way with utmost ease. Reality is a bit less obliging, alas.

 

The only thing I advocate is decision-making based on reality. Not vegetarianism, not meat eating. Reality. But even that I don't really insist on. As a Russian poet said, "a deception that uplifts us we cherish more than a multitude of truths that don't."

Fair enough...my history sucks especially the fine details but I see what you mean. We might be dressed up as more civil but does that mean we truly are?

 

That being said, I still say regardless that loving is as straight forward as not supporting murder. And if I don't eat meat, at least I'm doing what I can to "not support" murder. For the time being anyhow.

 

If we didn't have these set things we do that we deem as moral, wouldn't we lose all control? For me, eating meat is just one thing...but it sounds to me that your attitude towards it is more "fuck it, it happens so don't resent the fact you eat meat". This is fine, but if I adopted this attitude, I would be more irresponsible in general and maybe begin performing further less moral or caring acts.

[Taomeow]

I currently live on a continent that was described by the first European visitors (who proceeded to take it away from the native populations of people, animals and plants) as paradise on earth. They wept tears of toxic envy when they saw the way people lived here. In the official report by Christopher Columbus to the queen of Spain, inhabitants of this land were described as "the most beautiful and healthy, happy, kind and loving people anyone can imagine." None of them were vegetarians. The newcomers proceeded to kill their animals and use the people to ride (sic), even though they had horses, they preferred to force the men and women on all fours, mount their backs, and go places. Those were moral, god-fearing civilized people convinced that their way to express their humanity was vastly superior. Or whatever else they thought. Who gives a fuck what anyone thinks, in the final analysis it's the practical outcome of actions that counts. And the practical outcome of love the way our civilization expresses it is mass murder.

 

My attitude, Rara, is nowhere near "fuck it." Unless we are talking about arguing with fundamentalist cultists -- and food issues are a source of many a fundamentalist cult. Then, yes, with few exceptions, that's the attitude.

[xor]

I think the "meat is murder" slogan opens up a pandora's box, it's very different from saying you want to avoid killing animals yourself or eating the end product. I don't think we should disturb it. If we go that way we dehumanize alot of people and they in turn react to us. I never thought that way when I was a vegetarian and still it offended alot of people who were sure it was in line with my reasons to go veg.

 

[edited out personal story]

Edited November 10, 2013 by xor

[thelerner]

I'm a meat eater, no I'm a omnivore. Yet I think the vegetarian life style is morally superior. My yard stick being- If you don't have to hurt something than don't. Its a simple moral code I don't live up. I don't think Meat is Murder or people should look down on people who eat meat, but I look up to people who vegetarian. I think they cause less pain in the world.

Here:

.. The newcomers proceeded to kill their animals and use the people to ride (sic), even though they had horses, they preferred to force the men and women on all fours, mount their backs, and go places. Those were moral, god-fearing civilized people convinced that their way to express their humanity was vastly superior.

I think a group that is vegetarian, one that is sensitive enough and cares enough about the welfare of animals is much less likely to treat humans so horrendously.

 

<In advance> there's an old canard about Hitler being a vegetarian, he wasn't, he liked blood sausages. Disregarding that, I'd wager your vegetarian group is more peaceful then a carnivorous one. Undoubtedly there are exceptions, but as a rule I'm guessing.

 

While I'm generally on the side of those who think vegetarians are better for the environment. I just saw a TED video that showed movement of large herds, were vital in keeping areas from desertification and the solution to counter growing deserts was moving large herds through dry areas periodically. Thus huge herds of cattle may well hold the power to regreen large swatches of earth.

Edited November 10, 2013 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

Disregarding that, I'd wager your vegetarian group is more peaceful then a carnivorous one.

This hasn't been, to say the least, my experience. In fact, what rubs me wrong about vegetarianism in general is how violent they are. Not towards cows and chickens it's true, they treat these beasts nicely enough, or at least intend to. It's me they have no compassion for.

 

Now I'll grant you that I bear full responsibility for my own feelings. If I allow myself to get worked up, and I do, then that's on me. Fair enough. Maybe someday, when I'm farther along with my spiritual development, these things won't phase me. An angry mob of vicious vegans could pass right by me and I wouldn't be bothered one bit. As it is though, I'm not there yet.

 

Let me say right off that I know I shouldn't paint them all with the same brush. I'm sure there's plenty of pleasant people who don't eat animals and don't make a big to-do about it. That's cool. It's the ones with the holier-than-me attitude that get my goat. The ones who say I'm a murderer for not making the same choices they do. They will no-doubt claim that the cause is noble, and if my feelings get hurt in the process well that's just too bad. But that's just it. I don't much want to dialogue with someone who starts out from a position of moral superiority. There's no real civility there, no goodwill. As a group I don't find vegetarians a very "live and let live" bunch.

Edited November 10, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

<In advance> there's an old canard about Hitler being a vegetarian, he wasn't, he liked blood sausages. Disregarding that, I'd wager your vegetarian group is more peaceful then a carnivorous one.

 

That was before he became Hitler. He used to eat sausages, drink, smoke, paint, and behave as a human. Once he decided he's superhuman, he quit eating meat, drinking, smoking, painting, and started a whole bunch of campaigns against some of these (e.g., ordering production of science-for-hire that would "scientifically prove" whatever he no longer liked to be "objectively" harmful. The whores obliged, obviously.)

 

How about Charles Manson, a vegan? Does he strike you as particularly moral and peaceful? I could give you a long list of vegetarian lunatic killers, in fact why don't we start with the Bible: the first murderer in history was the vegetarian Cain who killed the carnivorous Abel, not the other way around.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Taomeow

[de_paradise]

I find vegans or vegetarians are not preachy or nagging their holyer than thou views. What happens is usually somebody asks the vegetarian why they decided to become vegetarian, and then they give some reasons like I don't want to kill animals, health etc.

 

But the fact that is some people are pretty locked onto their version of morality, their feelings of self-worth and ego tightly bound up in it, and suddenly this well-meaning vegetarian who is just innocently expressing him or herself: it feels to the meat eater that its knocking a brick out of their pyramid of values, challenging their equation, making them "guilty" of a crime that they had never felt very guilty for. So often the meat eater gets this gut churning of bad feelings, and then starts to challenge the vegetarian with arguements, except that most vegetarians are well versed on the arguements and stats, especially vegans.

 

Nobody would get all that worried if a Hindu told you that you shouldn't eat cows because they are sacred. You don't get worried if a Muslim tells you pork is dirty. This is because they are culturally removed. But you may feel threatened if someone of your own culture tells you why they are vegetarian. Its not the vegetarian thats threatening, its your ego generated feelings. Vegetarians don't feel threatened by hamburger and steak house advertising on the media. It's filtered out, not even make it on the radar. If you feel secure in your meat eating, then a vegan should just be like a talking muppet to you. If you feel shaken by a vegetarian then you need to examine the data and do a cost-benefit analysis based on your beliefs in regards to killing animals for lunch.

[liminal_luke]

I find vegans or vegetarians are not preachy or nagging their holyer than thou views.

 

If you feel secure in your meat eating, then a vegan should just be like a talking muppet to you. If you feel shaken by a vegetarian then you need to examine the data and do a cost-benefit analysis based on your beliefs in regards to killing animals for lunch.

Hmm...

[Taomeow]

De_paradize, looks like you had a special way to read dozens of posts on this forum by White Wolf Running on Air.

 

You think being portrayed as monsters should be fine with meat eaters, and if it isn't it's their failing all over again, insecure ego. And what I think is that vegetarian extremism (and militant extremists are the loudest group of vegetarians, believe it or not, though of course not every vegetarian is militant or loud) is as threatening to my ego as a mouse suddenly scurrying into the middle of the living-room is an affront to the insecure ego of the cat.

 

Incidentally, I know too many vegetarians who abuse their cats and dogs by feeding them grains-based diets. Where's their compassion when each and every one of these animals develops cancer is anyone's guess.

[de_paradise]

Oh, I wasn't referring to you taomeow, just giving my interpretation of what often happens to me when sitting down to eat with non-vegetarians.

[Taomeow]

Oh, I see. Well, it's pretty human then, not vegetarian vs. meat eater. People defend what they eat. Gluten-free people have to make excuses and justify their choice with this or that food sensitivity and still they get odd looks and, quite often, lectures. Organic-only people are processed by non-organic people in all kinds of ways, organic and not very. Ethnic and cultural minorities who eat things that are weird to most Americans, like organ meats, do it in secret or get a "yuck" from muscle meat eaters more often than not. And a Mexican neighbor of mine stopped talking to me when I told her I don't eat tamales anymore because I don't eat corn anymore. She thought... well, I don't know what she thought, but she doesn't talk to me anymore after the tamales confession. So, you just know the side of it you face with the facet that your diet is, but change the diet and you'll see the rest of the facets. They are all the same. Many, many people are gastronomically xenophobic.

 

I've a Taiwanese friend with whom I eat out fairly often, and he thinks that people who don't eat everything are creepy...

[xor]

................................................

Edited November 11, 2013 by xor