Interpretation of the Classic Title - 道德經 - Tao Te Ching

[ChiDragon]

道德經 (Tao Te Ching)

道德 can be interpreted as:
1. Tao and Te
2. The virtue of Tao.

In Chinese, 道德經 (Tao Te Ching) is a classic about "Tao and Te". Then, in English, it is a Classic of Tao and Te.

It is not a Classic about the "Virtue of Tao". However, the classic does talk about the Virtue of Tao in the Tao Te Ching.

When one is talking about the Virtue of Tao, then it is 道德(Tao Te); and it was not interpreted as "Tao and Te".

It was very explicitly defined in the Tao Te Ching that Te(德) is a product of Tao(道). Hence, Tao is before Te. One must cultivate or practice the principles of Tao, in order, to have the Virtue of Tao.

Someone might say: hey! the term of 道德(Tao Te) is not in the classic. However, there were metaphoric examples had have been given for the readers to grok. Mentally, with those who have a thorough comprehension of the Tao Te Ching, the message about 道德(Tao Te) was loud and clear.

PS.....
Let's be serious, please don't take the OP as trolling or belittled someone. It is because I have no intention to do such thing but to get the point across.

Edited November 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Your point has been made.

 

Henricks made this point as well in the introduction of has translation. And this is one of the reason why he titled his translation "Te-Tao Ching".

[dawei]

I think the point would be better made with historical reference and examples instead of purely an opinion.

 

#2 was in fairly common use in confucian and daoist texts.

 

#1 was arrived at as the three character title over time and one can trace the evolution of the same till DDJ was ultimately followed.

 

As MB points out: I would say it is historically inaccurate to have Dao before De, but the victors re-write history...

[baiqi]

The tricky thing with Chinese (classical in particular) is that you can choose wether two (ore more) characters are together to make one meaning or not. Or both. And there is no grammatical word telling how the two relate to each other (and,of, by, from etc.?)

 

So for me, both interpretations are correct. And more.

 

Daode 道德, in modern Chinese, as an expression just means "virtue", or "morals", "ethics". Leading many Chinese to believe it is a boring moralizing book, just like any Confucean classic.

We know that, while there are some ethical aspects included, it goes way beyond that.

 

We could say:

 

"The Way and its Virtue",

"The Way and Virtue"

"The Virtue of the Dao"

"The virtuous Dao (I don't like this one, but why not?)

"The Virtue from the Dao"

"etc."

 

No wonder you have new translations every year... Of course, each of them is an interpretation. You have yours- which may be correct- but nothing in the title proves it is better than another...

Edited November 3, 2013 by baiqi

[Marblehead]

... a boring moralizing book, just like any Confucean classic.

That caused my brain to smile.

[ChiDragon]

I think the point would be better made with historical reference and examples instead of purely an opinion.

 

 

The Tao Te Ching, itself, is self explanatory if one read it real carefully. It is a matter of comprehension. Indeed, the Tao Te Ching does not need a second opinion to say what it is.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

I am flattered and respect your opinion. However, I didn't see any significant value that was contributed to the argument.

Edited November 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I would now say it means "Classic on Dao and the power of Virtue" since it explains the power of De, as the virtuous giver, in the universe. Or "Classic of the power of Virtue as expressed through Dao," since the DDJ also shows how Dao exemplifies the power of virtue in operation, giving without owning and controlling, balancing and equalizing to bring about harmony in all facets of existence since the first emergence from non-existence.

[ChiDragon]

The De may have its own power, but the TTC was not talking about its power. The virtuous merit of De was in Lao Tze's main philosophy. However, Lao Tze would have had called it "power" instead of "De". Thus "Power" is out of the question.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The DDJ spoke about both the power of De, existing before even Heaven and Earth, and of it's manifestation in nature, humanity, and Dao.

 

The history of Chinese literature and culture was immersed in poetic interpretations and usages. Things were not clearly stated as in modern scientistic English. Reading between the lines was always a part of anything profoundly spoken. Thus, it behooves one to understand the words deeper than the words themselves. This was the mode of communication at the time, when people often communicated in quotations from the Book of Songs, or by spontaneous metaphorical poetry.

 

To assume that nothing was meant beyond the single dry words of any Jing/Classic is to fail miserably at the challenge posed by the masters who provide them for our reflection and study.

 

As Thomas Cleary explains: "Chinese people, especially scholars, habitually used poetry to exchange ideas and find out what others were thinking. Individuals could be judged professionally, intellectually, morally, and spiritually by their sensitivity to subtle nuances in the symbolism of poetry."

 

Surely you must know this CD.

[ChiDragon]

The DDJ spoke about both the power of De, existing before even Heaven and Earth, and of it's manifestation in nature, humanity, and Dao.

 

Where in the DDJ....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

51
1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them;

[ChiDragon]

51

1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them;

 

The Virtue, here, means Tao's virtue( the Virtue of Tao).

Edited November 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

more from DDJ51:

 

6. The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them, matures them, completes them, rests them, rears them, supports them, and protects them.
7. It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them;
8. It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent;
9. It matures them but doesn't rule them.
10. This we call Profound Virtue.

 

 

Sure, you could say the Virtue of Dao, or the Dao of De, either way they both existed before before all things, and their Virtue is exemplified in what people value as virtue: giving without expectation or obliging reciprocation -- this is De in humanity, which reflects the way of Virtue in the the universe.

[ChiDragon]

more from DDJ51:

 

6. The Way(道) gives birth to them, nourishes them, matures them, completes them, rests them, rears them, supports them, and protects them.

7. It(道) gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them;

8. It(道) acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent;

9. It(道) matures them but doesn't rule them.

10. This we call Profound Virtue of 道.

 

 

Sure, you could say the Virtue of Dao, or the De of Dao Dao of De, either way they both existed before before all things, and their Virtue is exemplified in what people value as virtue: giving without expectation or obliging reciprocation -- this is De in humanity, which reflects the way of Virtue in the the universe.

 

Line 6, as you have it, Tao was doing all those virtuous things. Line 10 says it was the credit that was given to Tao for what Tao had done.

 

PS....

De was even modified to say it is "Profound De" to indicate that was the virtue of Tao.

Edited November 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Virtue exists in Dao, so when you have Dao, you have De. It's not simply giving merit.

 

DDJ55:

 

55
1. One who embraces the fullness of Virtue,
2. Can be compared to a newborn babe.
3. Wasps and scorpions, snakes and vipers do not sting him;
4. Birds of prey and fierce beasts do not seize him;
5. His bones and muscles are weak and pliant, yet his grasp is firm;
6. He does not yet know the meeting of male and female, yet his organ is aroused—
7. This is because his essence is at its height.
8. He can scream all day, yet he won't become hoarse—
9. This is because his harmony is at its height.

10. To know harmony is called "the constant";
11. To know the constant is called "being wise";
12. To add on to life is called a "bad omen";
13. For the mind to control the breath—that's called "forcing things."

14. When things reach their prime they get old;
15. This is called "not the Way."
16. What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

 

 

This is the same as "embracing the One" yet here it is "embracing Virtue." Having meditation experience, I'm sure you have some grasp of what that means, "embrace the One." The One is at the base of life. Embrace it and you embrace the "fullness of Virtue." This fullness of virtue is life preserving. What power is more precious than this?

[ChiDragon]

1. Virtue exists in Dao, so when you have Dao, you have De. It's not simply giving merit.

 

DDJ55:

 

.......................

 

2. This is the same as "embracing the One" yet here it is "embracing Virtue." Having meditation experience, I'm sure you have some grasp of what that means, "embrace the One." The One is at the base of life. Embrace it and you embrace the "fullness of Virtue." This fullness of virtue is life preserving. What power is more precious than this?

 

1. There is no argument here. It was only a figure of speech for the purpose of De.

 

2. If one follows the principle of Tao, as you said, has De already. Is there a need to embrace Virtue...??? Actually, what it was saying is if you want De, you embrace Tao. If you like to translate De as "power", go right ahead; but then you will have lots of explaining to do to convince others.

Edited November 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

 

The Tao Te Ching, itself, is self explanatory if one read it real carefully. It is a matter of comprehension. Indeed, the Tao Te Ching does not need a second opinion to say what it is.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

I am flattered and respect your opinion. However, I didn't see any significant value that was contributed to the argument.

 

You don't have much basis for your point as relying on 'self explanatory' reasons is simply an opinion and there would be 1000's of options in the end.... with no agreement.

 

The reason one should read it as Dao and De is historical titling. That is the way it was always understood. TWO PARTS.

 

So, I agree with your position that "Dao and De" is the correct handling of the title. One just has to see the evolution of the titling.

 

Guodian: 300 BC

Guodian Laozi A (老子甲 - Laozi jia)

consists of (in this order) chapters 19, 66, 46, 30, 15, 64 (part 2), 37, 63, 2, 32, 25, 5, 16, 64 (part 1), 56, 57, 55, 44, 40, and 9.

Guodian Laozi B (老子乙 - Laozi yi)

consists of chapters 59, 48, 20, 13, 41, 52, 45, and 54.

Guodian Laozi C (老子丙 - Laozi bing)

consists of chapters 17, 18, 35, 31, and 64 (part 2).

 

 

Mawangdui Silk Texts (王堆帛書; pinyin: Mawangdui Boshu) : 200 BC

Laozi A (老子甲 - Laozi jia)

consists of chapters 38-81

Laozi B (老子乙 - Laozi yi)

consists of chapters 1-37

 

Ancient [script] Laozi:

老子 - Laozi

古老子 or 古文老子 - Ancient [script] Laozi

 

 

Hanfeizi 280–233 BC: The legalist is the earliest commentary to the Laozi and attests to the De before Dao order.

 

Laozi Beida version: By Han Wudi’s reign (141-87 BCE) ？

老子上經 - Laozi Upper Classic (equates to 德經 - The Classic of De)

老子下經 - Laozi Lower Classic (equates to 道經 - The Classic of Dao)

 

 

Heshang Gong: Supposedly lived during the reign (202-157 BC) of Emperor Wen of Han.Some believe he was the first to call reverse the 'books' and order them to 81 chapters:

 

 

Sima Qian: The great historian (100 AD) said:

於是老子乃著書上下篇，言道德之意五千餘言

Therefore, Laozi wrote Upper and Lower Sets (of books) concerning Dao and De of around 5,000 words.

 

 

Ergo, the historical record shows that this has been understood as two parts: Dao and De.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

1. There is no argument here. It was only a figure of speech for the purpose of De.

 

2. If one follows the principle of Tao, as you said, has De already. Is there a need to embrace Virtue...??? Actually, what it was saying is if you want De, you embrace Tao. If you like to translate De as "power", go right ahead; but then you will have lots of explaining to do to convince others.

I don't think I'll have much explaining to do. It's quite apparent that there is power in anything which sustains life. Why you need me to spell this out for you, however, does not give me much hope that talking about this with you will help you see beyond what you have already set in your mind. If you can't discover this already with all the resources in front of you, I have no desire to force you to see it.

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

[Marblehead]

Let Nature take its course.

But sometimes she needs a little push 'cause she is so hung up with this "wu wei" thing of hers.

[ChiDragon]

But sometimes she needs a little push 'cause she is so hung up with this "wu wei" thing of hers.

 

No, not her. It is you that are not so hung up........

[taomen]

I would say it can be translateg as "treatise about one entity which is manifested as dao and then as de"

[ChiDragon]

I would say it can be translateg as "treatise about one entity which is manifested as dao and then as de"

 

I would say that is a good interpretation for understanding the title but not a title to stand for itself.

[flowing hands]

Of course Lao Tzu (Li Erh) did not call his random collection of verses the 'Dao De Jhing'. His verses show us a spiritual, practical and empirical way at looking at the world and Mankind's place in that order. The whole body of verses is deemed as a sacred text. It is a realization of deep spiritual awareness which he was surrounded by at the time of writing. The spiritual leads to the practical, so it is more important. So we have 'the Sacred texts or verses of the Dao and its spiritual essence'. Now if we were aware of how Daoist view Daoist cultivation then it becomes 'the Sacred book of the Dao and its heart'. Virtue has nothing to do with it, nor the power of the Dao.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Though I agree with the sentiments behind it, I respectfully disagree that the Dao De Jing has nothing to do with character and virtue.

 

Dao is shown by the virtue of character in sages. The character of sages is reflected in behaviour of Dao.